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Farage highlighting illegal migration chaos

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    #632
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Tell me how wrote: »
    And invading others don't forget. That's been a pretty strong western value since the day someone decided there was a border.

    Borders and invading countries are not western values. That's as ridiculous as saying that borders are a Buddhist value. That's a red herring.

    A country without borders is not a country. A house without walls is not a house. It might be a gazebo, but it's not a house.

    All borders must be enforced to some extent for them to function as borders. If jurisdictions and legal statuses are 100% ignored you no longer have a functioning border.

    Invading countries? You don't even have to be a functioning country to invade a country. An arm of the Taliban invaded Afghanistan from Pakistan, despite the Taliban not being a country. Where on Earth are you getting this from? Did you mean to say colonization? That's the usual rejoinder for someone playing 'the West is bad' card.


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    #633
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,278 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Tell me how wrote: »
    And invading others don't forget. That's been a pretty strong western value since the day someone decided there was a border.

    are russia and third world countries the ones you want to compare yourself to when it comes to human rights?


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    #634
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Borders and invading countries are not western values. That's as ridiculous as saying that borders are a Buddhist value. That's a red herring.

    A country without borders is not a country. A house without walls is not a house. It might be a gazebo, but it's not a house.

    All borders must be enforced to some extent for them to function as borders. If jurisdictions and legal statuses are 100% ignored you no longer have a functioning border.

    Invading countries? You don't even have to be a functioning country to invade a country. An arm of the Taliban invaded Afghanistan from Pakistan, despite the Taliban not being a country. Where on Earth are you getting this from? Did you mean to say colonization? That's the usual rejoinder for someone playing 'the West is bad' card.

    How the F do you think they colonized a place if they hadn't taken it by force after invading a border? Oh that's right, they 'discovered' it, like the natives were playing a game of hide and seek.

    Or, do you only want to talk about Western Values which showcase the countries in a positive light.


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    #635
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    are russia and third world countries the ones you want to compare yourself to when it comes to human rights?

    Are they the only ones who have done reprehensible acts?


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    #636
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,278 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Are they the only ones who have done reprehensible acts?

    dont try arguing against something that nobody has said. it is very tiresome. they are parts of the world with appalling human rights records. they are not the standard to be aiming for.


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    #637
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    dont try arguing against something that nobody has said. it is very tiresome. they are parts of the world with appalling human rights records. they are not the standard to be aiming for.

    Hang on, this particular topic started after someone mentioned that it was a western value to defend your border.

    Spain, Portugal, the USA, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany all invaded borders. Extensively. You can't suggest its a western value to defend your border but ignore that reality.


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    #638
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Tell me how wrote: »
    How the F do you think they colonized a place if they hadn't taken it by force after invading a border?

    Okay so you did mean to say 'colonization' instead of invasion.

    Would you mind saying where you are going with this? I'm not going to do your work for you. You want to put together a coherent argument about why border control is an exclusively Western idea, and how Western ideas are inherently bad, but you're just dabbling at the edges at the moment.

    I mean, you're wrong on both counts, and I'm happy to show you how you are wrong when you get to the point of actually articulating that position clearly, but there's no point in my jumping the gun.


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    #639
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Okay so you did mean to say 'colonization' instead of invasion.

    Would you mind saying where you are going with this? I'm not going to do your work for you. You want to put together a coherent argument about why border control is an exclusively Western idea, and how Western ideas are inherently bad, but you're just dabbling at the edges at the moment.

    I mean, you're wrong, and I'm happy to show you how you are wrong when you get to the point of actually articulating that position clearly, but there's no point in my jumping the gun.

    Go ahead and build, fight and defeat whatever strawman you wish. I'm sure you'll do so admirably.

    I have no wish to confine the discussion to the narrow bandwidth which allows people to ignore the practices of one group of people during a particular point in their history while ignoring another common practice which they were carrying out throughout the same period.


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    #640
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Go ahead and build, fight and defeat whatever strawman you wish. I'm sure you'll do so admirably.

    I have no wish to confine the discussion to the narrow bandwidth which allows people to ignore the practices of one group of people during a particular point in their history while ignoring another common practice which they were carrying out throughout the same period.

    Okay, I will take it that you are rescinding the position that border control has anything to do with western values, one way or the other.


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    #641
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Okay, I will take it that you are rescinding the position that border control has anything to do with western values, one way or the other.

    It wasn't my position. Read the thread.


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    #642
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    I used to live in London, it is now incredibly ghettoized by immigrants and asylum seekers to the point in some areas there are no go zones for white people. It's a shame, but that's the acceptable world we now live in. Just have to suck it up and move on now.


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    #643
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Tell me how wrote: »
    It wasn't my position. Read the thread.

    You say that this kicked off by someone saying that border control was a western value but I don't see much evidence of that.

    https://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?query=western%20value&thread=2058075749

    Your posts in this thread seem to be all over the shop, though Eric Cartman's posts didn't improve matters.

    Your good post is this one
    Tell me how wrote: »
    • Rejoin the EU.
    • Actively contribute to a coordinated effort to deal with the issue of migrants collectively rather than leaving it to the countries on the southern borders to deal with the issue.
    • Engage with governments in countries from which people are migrating to do more to prevent them leaving through providing some sort of ring fenced aid to help people who think a life threatening journey is a better option.

    So let's leave 'western values' to one side. It's nonsensical.

    However I think your suggestions as to how Britain deals with illegal immigration is entirely naive.
    • Rejoin the EU.

    They are in the EU at the moment and illegal immigration is currently a problem, so I'm going to dismiss this one straight off the bat.


    • Actively contribute to a coordinated effort to deal with the issue of migrants collectively rather than leaving it to the countries on the southern borders to deal with the issue.

    This isn't really the issue though. If it were the problem, then France would be a perfectly fine destination. The problem isn't that the countries in which the migrants are coming into are being overwhelmed (they certainly were back in 2015, but not so much now), the issue is that migrants don't want to be in Italy or France, they want to be in the UK. The UK agreeing to take a small percentage of them will make no discernible improvement to the situation unless it comes with a guarantee that free movement of migrants through Europe will be restricted, and there's zero chance of that happening.


    • Engage with governments in countries from which people are migrating to do more to prevent them leaving through providing some sort of ring fenced aid to help people who think a life threatening journey is a better option.

    Which countries? Do you mean the countries that the people are coming from (that's all of Africa, Middle East and some of Asia) countries which they are migrating from, into the EU (like Turkey and Libya), or do you mean countries they are migrating from within the EU (like Greece and Italy)?

    It's also worth mentioning that a significant amount of immigration occurs within Europe into the EU from Albania and Kosovo.

    Depending on which you mean determines the type of action, and likelihood of success. The most successful approach by far, so far, has been dealing with Turkey and Libya (though the governments of both those countries are.. difficult partners.. to say the least)


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    #644
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    I used to live in London, it is now incredibly ghettoized by immigrants and asylum seekers to the point in some areas there are no go zones for white people. It's a shame, but that's the acceptable world we now live in. Just have to suck it up and move on now.
    Yes, it's sad really. I've been to London many times over the years and it feels less and less like England.


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    #645
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    biko wrote: »
    Yes, it's sad really. I've been to London many times over the years and it feels less and less like England.

    Around Brick Lane/Whitechapel you could literally be in an Indian/Pakistani town.


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    #646
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    I used to live in London, it is now incredibly ghettoized by immigrants and asylum seekers to the point in some areas there are no go zones for white people. It's a shame, but that's the acceptable world we now live in. Just have to suck it up and move on now.

    That's just bollox.

    I live here and it's nothing like that.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #647
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    That's just bollox.

    I live here and it's nothing like that.
    Do you live in Whitechapel, or Richmond?

    I lived just off Edgeware Road and agree with him, not you.


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    #648
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    biko wrote: »
    Do you live in Whitechapel, or Richmond?

    It's none of your business where I live.

    Any proof that I can't go to certain parts of the city I live in?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #649
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,278 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    That's just bollox.

    I live here and it's nothing like that.

    some people are just scared by other people who aren't white.


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    #650
    Hubertj
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's none of your business where I live.

    Any proof that I can't go to certain parts of the city I live in?

    Brixton.... it’s a hole. I spend a lot of time in dulwich and have seen it.

    London is a big city


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    #651
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    some people are just scared by other people who aren't white.

    It's not fear. It's hatred. You have the same lads tell us that all lives matter desperate to see non-white people on dinghies murdered.
    Hubertj wrote: »
    Brixton.... it’s a hole. I spend a lot of time in dulwich and have seen it.

    London is a big city

    No evidence, then.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #652
    kenmm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭kenmm


    There are many parts of the UK (and Ire) I wouldn't feel particularly comfortable in because the locals would be enough (To be blunt, because they are rough estates etc).

    I haven't witnessed the same purely because of migrants. Generally my direct experience of any problems with immigrants in the UK have been caused by natives giving abuse to the immigrants.


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    #653
    Hubertj
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's not fear. It's hatred. You have the same lads tell us that all lives matter desperate to see non-white people on dinghies murdered.



    No evidence, then.

    What sort of evidence do you require? Why are you being so aggressive?


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    #654
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Hubertj wrote: »
    What sort of evidence do you require? Why are you being so aggressive?

    Aggressive? There are people here saying that London is somehow not English because there are non-white people here and I'm being aggressive?

    I could take what you say in good faith but biko was telling us we're being invaded. I asked how many and it turned out to be a pitiful number. If the alllivesmatter brigade want to trade in myths then it makes no sense to take what they say on good faith.

    Since that's the second time you've not substantiated your claim, I'm going to dismiss it as the nonsense it is.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #655
    Hubertj
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Aggressive? There are people here saying that London is somehow not English because there are non-white people here and I'm being aggressive?

    I like this city. It's wonderful and I don't care to see it being slagged off because the alllivesmatter brigade despise brown people.

    I love London too. My parents met there, My siblings were born there and I have family and friends there. However, parts of it have deteriorated for various reasons - failure of government and policy, poor policing, immigration, crime, lack of education. Immigration problems were largely created by the uks colonial past.


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    #656
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,790 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    biko wrote: »
    Yes, it's sad really. I've been to London many times over the years and it feels less and less like England.

    clearly never been to London then because its been one of the most diverse capitals in the world for absolute decades.

    Why is ok for you to spread utter nonsense and how in the hell does one become Mod in European Languages and come across so tone deaf.


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    #657
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Hubertj wrote: »
    I love London too. My parents met there, My siblings were born there and I have family and friends there. However, parts of it have deteriorated for various reasons - failure of government and policy, poor policing, immigration, crime, lack of education. Immigration problems were largely created by the uks colonial past.

    It's not fair to blame immigration when successive British governments have done nothing whatsoever for either immigrants or the communities they move into.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #658
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's not fear. It's hatred. You have the same lads tell us that all lives matter desperate to see non-white people on dinghies murdered.



    No evidence, then.

    Be thankful you are not Jewish I guess. You would concede that an Orthodox Jew would have a little less freedom than yourself about where they go or dont go in London

    https://twitter.com/Ostrov_A/status/1201052994562920448

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #659
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's none of your business where I live.
    That's fine, if you don't want to be more specific in a city with 9 million people that is your prerogative.


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    #660
    mick087
    Registered Users Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭mick087


    kenmm wrote: »
    There are many parts of the UK (and Ire) I wouldn't feel particularly comfortable in because the locals would be enough (To be blunt, because they are rough estates etc).

    I haven't witnessed the same purely because of migrants. Generally my direct experience of any problems with immigrants in the UK have been caused by natives giving abuse to the immigrants.


    Why would you feel comfortable?
    What makes an estate rough?
    Have you ever engaged with the locals in such places?


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    #661
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Aggressive? There are people here saying that London is somehow not English because there are non-white people here and I'm being aggressive?

    That is unfair. At tis stage London has its own accent that is descended from
    minority accdents while the traditional London culture and fare is dying out.


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