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EV vs PHEV - we spend 99% of our time in and around Dublin

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  • 04-05-2020 5:59pm
    #1
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Hi lads,

    Complete novice to this, have read through the forum and some other places online. We are planning to ditch our 2012 diesel family car for an electric car this year.

    Looking at brand new and given we live, work and mostly commute around Dublin (might drive to Cork or Galway a couple of times a year), we are looking at a Renault Zoe (budget is up to mid €30k). Not interested in a PCP, will be straight Hire Purchase over a max of 4 years (hopefully with as close to zero interest rate as possible!)

    https://www.renault.ie/electric/zoe.html

    From what I can see I'm not sure we would get much benefit out of spending extra on a hybrid as we won't be far from home (where we'll get a charger installed) very often at all.

    What would your thoughts be in such a scenario?

    Hoping to get a good deal on a 201 or even maybe a 202 when car dealers open later this month, will be interesting to see how they do test drives under COVID-19 too.


«1345

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    #2
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    For your lack of distance driving, and the potential low sales of the new Hyundai Ioniq, you could keep an eye on them for a deal. They're overpriced, and have a slower rate of charge than their older (lesser range) Ioniq, so they're likely not flying out the door. If Hyundai realise this, and start doing deals, you could get a very good ~250km motorway range car for mid 30s money.

    Sounds like a PHEV would be of little benefit to you.
    PHEV is for "my commute is close, but I travel long distances regularly" people.


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    #3
    ewj1978
    Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭ewj1978


    You could get a Kia Soul for mid 30's (up to 450kms range, if you drive it like a granny)
    Ioniq as black knight said.
    long range Zoe starts at 27k (400km range, again granny driving)
    leaf 62 starts at 33k. (385 km range, which is awful)
    Bmw i3 again mid 30's (300km odd range)
    E golf mid 20's (200km range), soon to be replaced by the new VW ID

    Personally I'd avoid a PHEV as you'd just be lugging an ICE engine around and not using it for most of the time.


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    #4
    zg3409
    Registered Users Posts: 6,563 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Firstly if you want to reduce risk buy used as if you change your mind it won't cost the earth to change back.

    What is your typical daily commute and odd once a month commute? If its very low then there is no fuel savings to be had. Most PHEV have tiny electric only range.

    Have you sat in the Zoe? Its a great car but very small.

    Do you have access to a second car for long trips? Stopping to charge on long trips is main downside to EVs and the normal Zoe is not that fast to charge when at fast chargers. Its typically 22kW when others are 50kW meaning 40 minutes wait vs 20 minutes. The newest Zoe does have an option for 50kW but is an optional extra.

    The really biggest downside to EV is when there is no public fast charger on your planned trip or there is but it is broken or busy, are you willing to take a risk that you will arrive to find charger in use for 45 minutes and only then can you charge? I say this as if you want to save money unless you have decent commute (100km a day) and buy used you won't save money. You won't save the environment now either with local trips and new car. What is your car now and is it too big or small?


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    #5
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,367 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    If you're only pootling about Dublin you probably wont drive it enough to see fuel savings.
    If I was living in Dublin and only doing short trips I'd have a big lazy v8. Or compromise and get a lexus LS600h.


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    #6
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Mini Electric
    e-208
    Honda e


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    #7
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    zg3409 wrote: »
    Firstly if you want to reduce risk buy used as if you change your mind it won't cost the earth to change back.

    What is your typical daily commute and odd once a month commute? If its very low then there is no fuel savings to be had. Most PHEV have tiny electric only range.

    Have you sat in the Zoe? Its a great car but very small.

    Do you have access to a second car for long trips? Stopping to charge on long trips is main downside to EVs and the normal Zoe is not that fast to charge when at fast chargers. Its typically 22kW when others are 50kW meaning 40 minutes wait vs 20 minutes. The newest Zoe does have an option for 50kW but is an optional extra.

    The really biggest downside to EV is when there is no public fast charger on your planned trip or there is but it is broken or busy, are you willing to take a risk that you will arrive to find charger in use for 45 minutes and only then can you charge? I say this as if you want to save money unless you have decent commute (100km a day) and buy used you won't save money. You won't save the environment now either with local trips and new car. What is your car now and is it too big or small?

    Sorry thought I replied to this.

    Daily commute is 25km round trip and we have a 2012 diesel at the moment, we were looking to change before the magical 10 year mark but there are some good deals around on new and the dealer has given us a pretty good trade in estimate.

    We always said our next should be electric as that's the way things are going. Fortunately we only commute around Dublin so can charge it at home and for the handful of times we go to Galway a year (could count on one hand) there are public chargers around.

    Of course it depends how it goes when we get to see a Zoe upfront and in person. So far I think it's a good fit for us but the back seat (with 2 kids car seats) could mean it's tight.

    Looking at the mid range Zoe (Iconic R110 Rapid Charge). Heard the CCS add on is worth it for resale?

    Depending on what deal we can strike, a 201 or 202 as older than that the batteries are not as good (so I've read).


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    #8
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Do you go to Galway city? You could let someone else do the driving and take the train or bus instead?


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    #9
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Sorry thought I replied to this.

    Daily commute is 25km round trip and we have a 2012 diesel at the moment, we were looking to change before the magical 10 year mark but there are some good deals around on new and the dealer has given us a pretty good trade in estimate.

    We always said our next should be electric as that's the way things are going. Fortunately we only commute around Dublin so can charge it at home and for the handful of times we go to Galway a year (could count on one hand) there are public chargers around.

    Of course it depends how it goes when we get to see a Zoe upfront and in person. So far I think it's a good fit for us but the back seat (with 2 kids car seats) could mean it's tight.

    Looking at the mid range Zoe (Iconic R110 Rapid Charge). Heard the CCS add on is worth it for resale?

    Depending on what deal we can strike, a 201 or 202 as older than that the batteries are not as good (so I've read).

    CCS would be more desirable in a resale, but unless you're getting the benefit of it while you own it, it might not be worth it. Whats it cost extra?
    UK says £750, So I guess around €1k here?

    Renaults site gives a handy (though im not sure how accurate) range meter for the Zoe. It gets pretty damning at higher speeds. That ~375km range drops down to about 200km at 120kph. That'd just get you to Galway with nothing left, though you'd most likely drive at 110kph to keep the stress levels down.

    Dublin to Cork would require a stop for about 40 minutes according to ABRP (abetterrouteplanner), which is possibly assuming a CCS charger (it pointed me towards Ionity). In reality you'd be looking at possibly closer to 50 minutes to an hour if charging on AC. Drive at 110kph and it'd be more like 30 minutes.

    Another thing to note, the Zoe 50 has a 50kWh battery, meaning on a 3 pin charger (granny cable) it'd take about a full day to charge from zero, so depending on how your trips to Cork/Galway go, you could have to factor in more fast charging.

    The free AC chargers littered around the country will charge the Zoe in a bit over 2 hours - 2km added every minute.
    Rapid chargers on the motorway would add about 2km every minute when charging on AC.
    Fork out for the CCS connection and that'd be about 4km every minute added when charging on DC.

    Either way, the Zoe is not going to get to Cork without stopping, unless you drive at ~90km/hr all the way.


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    #10
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,771 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    Either way, the Zoe is not going to get to Cork without stopping, unless you drive at ~90km/hr all the way.

    On a good day. With no wind and no rain. In summer :p

    Ioniq 28kWh can do that too BTW...


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    #11
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    unkel wrote: »
    On a good day. With no wind and no rain. In summer :p

    Would that be the same summer ESB are installing the 150kW chargers?
    unkel wrote: »
    Ioniq 28kWh can do that too BTW...

    Wouldn't have the patience for it. Somehow i'd much rather boot along at 120km/hr and deal with charging along the way... multiple times... damn Mayfield... damn IKEA and it's lack of charger... damn slow portlaois charge point!


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    #12
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,771 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    Would that be the same summer ESB are installing the 150kW chargers?

    2022? :p


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    #13
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Good to know re Cork and Galway thanks, as I say would be once or twice a year for either max.

    Vast majority of driving is in and around Dublin.

    The CCS upgrade is €750.

    Need to do some more research and of course have a look at one on the flesh when we can.


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    #14
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Do you go to Galway city? You could let someone else do the driving and take the train or bus instead?

    Once a year maybe, sounds like we'd have to break up the trip with anything that is 100% electric to allow for charging.

    Could probably deal with that for the few times we drive that distance a year TBH


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    #15
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Once a year maybe, sounds like we'd have to break up the trip with anything that is 100% electric to allow for charging.

    Could probably deal with that for the few times we drive that distance a year TBH

    IF Hyundai cop on with the new Ioniq 38, they might do some deals with it, and make it attainable at mid 30s. That should do Dublin to Galway handy, and thought probably not Dublin to Cork. If it can be got at mid 30s or less, it's not a bad car for your circumstances. It's not a good car at its current price, and not a good car if you need to use fast chargers (Dublin-Cork probably would).


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    #16
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    IF Hyundai cop on with the new Ioniq 38, they might do some deals with it, and make it attainable at mid 30s. That should do Dublin to Galway handy, and thought probably not Dublin to Cork. If it can be got at mid 30s or less, it's not a bad car for your circumstances. It's not a good car at its current price, and not a good car if you need to use fast chargers (Dublin-Cork probably would).

    So outside of the Cork and Galway thing, what do you think of the Zoe, for a Dublin based driver and family.

    It seems to get good reviews on various websites and YouTube reviews. In the absence of a test drive am curious on peoples opinions.


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    #17
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    So outside of the Cork and Galway thing, what do you think of the Zoe, for a Dublin based driver and family.

    It seems to get good reviews on various websites and YouTube reviews. In the absence of a test drive am curious on peoples opinions.

    I've never driven one or researched them much, but once the spec and size are good enough for you, I'd say it'd be perfect.


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    #18
    adunis
    Registered Users Posts: 653 ✭✭✭adunis


    I have a "classic" Ioniq and a ze4.0 Zoe.
    Any specific questions ask away.


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    #19
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Your mileage is very low... 6k a year at 25km a day.

    If elec the kona, niro and esoul are all very good.

    But your spending a lot to get an expensive battery for no economic benefit.

    Look at what you get for your money in a new or nearly new petrol and see how it stacks up. You would get very high spec d cars for mid 30k.

    If the economic argument is redundant and you have a passion for virtue signalling go for it.


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    #20
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,771 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Lantus wrote: »
    and you have a passion for virtue signalling go for it.

    :rolleyes:


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    #21
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,367 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Lantus wrote: »
    Your mileage is very low... 6k a year at 25km a day.

    If elec the kona, niro and esoul are all very good.

    But your spending a lot to get an expensive battery for no economic benefit.

    Look at what you get for your money in a new or nearly new petrol and see how it stacks up. You would get very high spec d cars for mid 30k.

    If the economic argument is redundant and you have a passion for virtue signalling go for it.
    unkel wrote: »
    rolleyes.png
    He's not wrong.


    If I had that sort of low miles (with this WFH I may have in the future) I'd be moving to a big lazy V8 or v/W12. Fook EV. For me it's a cost benefit analysis, pure and simple.


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    #22
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    adunis wrote: »
    I have a "classic" Ioniq and a ze4.0 Zoe.
    Any specific questions ask away.

    Thanks, looking at the back seat alone.....is the Ioniq that much bigger than the Zoe?

    In the absence of being able to see both up front, am trying to work out space along the back seat with 2 car seats (could a small adult squeeze in the middle if we ever had to).


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    #23
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,771 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Thanks, looking at the back seat alone.....is the Ioniq that much bigger than the Zoe?

    In the absence of being able to see both up front, am trying to work out space along the back seat with 2 car seats (could a small adult squeeze in the middle if we ever had to).

    Not a chance you could have 2 car seats in the back of a Zoe and then fit an adult in the middle as well. It's a small hatch! In Ioniq you might, you will have to try. I guess it will depend on the size of the car seats, the size of the adult and on how long the journey is.


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    #24
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    unkel wrote: »
    Not a chance you could have 2 car seats in the back of a Zoe and then fit an adult in the middle as well. It's a small hatch! In Ioniq you might, you will have to try. I guess it will depend on the size of the car seats, the size of the adult and on how long the journey is.

    Yeah we really need to see the Zoe and Ioniq up close.

    We are coming to end of needing one of the car seats (well could be 2 years away) and the small adult squeezing in the middle would not be often at all and would only ever be very short distances (around our part of Dublin).


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    #25
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,771 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    You don't really want to have 3 people at all in the back of a Zoe. But do go and try both cars yourself!


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    #26
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Yeah we really need to see the Zoe and Ioniq up close.

    We are coming to end of needing one of the car seats (well could be 2 years away) and the small adult squeezing in the middle would not be often at all and would only ever be very short distances (around our part of Dublin).

    I'll dry fit our 2nd car seat later (baby 2 on the way) in my ioniq and take a pic. I know our bigger car seat requires my wife to pull forward a bit to stop our little one banging feet off the back of the seat.

    I wouldn't fancy trying to get into the middle seat when the 2 car seats are in place though. Our seat is bulky though (it swivels).


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    #27
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    I'll dry fit our 2nd car seat later (baby 2 on the way) in my ioniq and take a pic. I know our bigger car seat requires my wife to pull forward a bit to stop our little one banging feet off the back of the seat.

    I wouldn't fancy trying to get into the middle seat when the 2 car seats are in place though. Our seat is bulky though (it swivels).

    Thanks - appreciate that.


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    #28
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    IMG-20200514-130556.jpg
    IMG-20200514-130626.jpg
    IMG-20200514-130650.jpg

    Bottle for scale. I wouldn't fancy sitting there for any period of time. I could, I'm "aerodynamic", but it'd be cosy.

    My seat is in my driving position, and the baby seat is tight. I don't have the base in though, so it's not a completely true reflection of the vertical space it takes up. I'm 6 foot, but I could scooch forward a bit in comfort... And I will have to


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    #29
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Black_Knight wrote: »
    IMG-20200514-130556.jpg
    IMG-20200514-130626.jpg
    IMG-20200514-130650.jpg

    Bottle for scale. I wouldn't fancy sitting there for any period of time. I could, I'm "aerodynamic", but it'd be cosy.

    My seat is in my driving position, and the baby seat is tight. I don't have the base in though, so it's not a completely true reflection of the vertical space it takes up. I'm 6 foot, but I could scooch forward a bit in comfort... And I will have to

    Cheers that's very helpful.

    That's in the Ionioq so assume the Zoe would be tighter?


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    #30
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Cheers that's very helpful.

    That's in the Ionioq so assume the Zoe would be tighter?

    Zoe is 10 cm narrower, so they'd want to be doing some internal magicary to make the back bench wider than the ioniq. It won't be roomy either way


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    #31
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Hi lads,

    Back from a look at a few dealers today now they're all open.

    Looked at the Zoe, Ioniq and Leaf.

    Liked all three and was pleasantly surprised by the Leaf, was expecting it to be smaller than the Zoe. The Zoe is certainly small in the back seats (with car seats) but it seems everything in the €25-€35k EV bracket is that way.

    The Leaf actually looks a tiny bit bigger than the Zoe.

    Not sure for us, the extra on the Ioniq would be worth it. The back seats seemed on a par with Zoe but in fairness it has a bigger boot and a bit more legroom.

    Will read through the individual vehicle threads here for more.


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