EV vs PHEV - we spend 99% of our time in and around Dublin

liamog · 24-05-2020 1:22pm

Sounds like you took a 2018 buyers guide to EVs

You should also check out the Peugeot e-208/Opel Corsa E. The Peugeot starts at €27,334 for around 300km of range.

jusmeig · 24-05-2020 1:50pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Sorry thought I replied to this.

Daily commute is 25km round trip and we have a 2012 diesel at the moment, we were looking to change before the magical 10 year mark but there are some good deals around on new and the dealer has given us a pretty good trade in estimate.

We always said our next should be electric as that's the way things are going. Fortunately we only commute around Dublin so can charge it at home and for the handful of times we go to Galway a year (could count on one hand) there are public chargers around.

Of course it depends how it goes when we get to see a Zoe upfront and in person. So far I think it's a good fit for us but the back seat (with 2 kids car seats) could mean it's tight.

Looking at the mid range Zoe (Iconic R110 Rapid Charge). Heard the CCS add on is worth it for resale?

Depending on what deal we can strike, a 201 or 202 as older than that the batteries are not as good (so I've read).

Zoe and 2 car seats would be madness.
It's a very small car, and with all the trapping of kids u would have bags on your lap.

jusmeig · 24-05-2020 1:55pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Hi lads,

Back from a look at a few dealers today now they're all open.

Looked at the Zoe, Ioniq and Leaf.

Liked all three and was pleasantly surprised by the Leaf, was expecting it to be smaller than the Zoe. The Zoe is certainly small in the back seats (with car seats) but it seems everything in the €25-€35k EV bracket is that way.

The Leaf actually looks a tiny bit bigger than the Zoe.

Not sure for us, the extra on the Ioniq would be worth it. The back seats seemed on a par with Zoe but in fairness it has a bigger boot and a bit more legroom.

Will read through the individual vehicle threads here for more.

My 2 cents:

Zoe -> Compact and too small in my opinion.
Leaf -> Good Family car, lots of room. Hatch back booth so getting stuff in/out is easy. Only downside would be the air cooled battery. Unless you are doing long trips its a non-issue, but for me being interested in the tech its a HUGE mistake by Nissan.
Ioniq -> Great car, drove one for 2 years. Plenty of space and fast CCS charging on the older one. Again the newer charging speed would be an non issue for me as I do very few long runs. The new Ioniq is probably faster charing than the leaf if you factor in Rapidgate.

Sheep Shagger · 24-05-2020 4:58pm

Excuse my ignorance, is the battery technology on a Leaf really that bad, havn't seen it come up in research I've done to date?

Missed the new electric Peugeot, will go and have a look up close this week.

Black_Knight · 24-05-2020 5:12pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, is the battery technology on a Leaf really that bad, havn't seen it come up in research I've done to date?

Missed the new electric Peugeot, will go and have a look up close this week.

The battery management tech (or lack of it) in the leaf is bad. Passively cooling the battery isn't good for the battery. It's a bad mistake to make, and they seem determined to keep making it.

Buyer beware I guess, but for tipping around town etc they're fine.

liamog · 24-05-2020 5:24pm

The Opel and the Peugeot are the same underneath, so if you like the size of the Peugeot but aren't keen on the styling then look at the Corsa E, it's apprently €4 more expensinve for the base spec.

Laviski · 24-05-2020 8:09pm

OP imo if you see leaf drivers, ask them how they find the car. More than not they would not even mention the fact the battery is air cooled been stated as a problem (doesn't have thermal management) . I specifically had to asked them about this, and asked how many bars they lost depending on the year of the car.
Some here believe that the leaf not having thermal management was Nissan shooting themselves in the foot and perhaps they have a point. But this shouldn't mean you should overlook the leaf, if you do get a leaf you will manage it like drivers i talked to. Also i will point out this is Ireland and not the Sahara desert..... how often is our air temperatures even above 20c. During extreme hot spells i plan on being mind full of battery management but i think anyone with electric car would be as well but again it will be a rarity. If you also like having a heavy foot and don't like driving "leaf speed" as you prefer to be doing 120+ on the motorway then the leaf may also not be for you. Again some folks don't want to change their driving style/habbits or drive economically which is perfectly fine, then they should buy a p version Tesla.

I've got the new 2020 model and its miles ahead of the previous iterations. Love the car, but i did like the ionic too just not the price. I'm doing city driving not high mileage (apart from the odd long journey) so the leaf is a perfect fit. Didn't like the Renault or Peugeot.

if you plan on doing high mileage then the ionic is more suited or if you are more heavily reliant on fast charging using ccs. Regular short/medium journeys imo the leaf 40kw is a better fit. (you could always look at getting the 60Kw but my opinions and research was just on the 40, but if was toying on getting the 60kw i might hold off and save for whats needed to get an T M3)

Sheep Shagger · 24-05-2020 9:34pm

Cheers, the battery 'issue' certainly doesnt put us off the leaf, for our mileage and as you point out our climate I can't really see it being a problem.

The iconiq like you say is nice but it comes with a nice price.

Think we've discounted the Zoe

Will look at the Peugeot this week but another attraction of the leaf is that they've been around a while so have had the chance to iron out earlier problems.

liamog · 24-05-2020 10:31pm

If you are ok with a three door, there is also the Mini Cooper SE, but that's more of a car that's fun to drive. Good pricing though for what is arguably the first EV hot hatch.

Re the Leaf battery issues, our climate is enough for a Leaf to hit reduced rates of charge on a second fast charge. I've been stuck waiting for one to finish in Kilbeggan in the past.
It is something to keep in the back of your mind, as even the percieved problem can affect future value.

Sheep Shagger · 24-05-2020 10:52pm

liamog wrote: »

If you are ok with a three door, there is also the Mini Cooper SE, but that's more of a car that's fun to drive. Good pricing though for what is arguably the first EV hot hatch.

Re the Leaf battery issues, our climate is enough for a Leaf to hit reduced rates of charge on a second fast charge. I've been stuck waiting for one to finish in Kilbeggan in the past.
It is something to keep in the back of your mind, as even the percieved problem can affect future value.

Thanks, with the 2 kids want a five door but good to know.

Am trying to work out how the battery issue could affect us given the short distances we'll be doing almost exclusively zipping around Dublin and having a charger at home. For the handful of times we go to Galway or Cork each year (total trips of that distance could be counted on one hand) we'd be relying on public chargers and also the granny charge at the house we'd be staying at for both.

liamog · 25-05-2020 12:10am

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Thanks, with the 2 kids want a five door but good to know.

Am trying to work out how the battery issue could affect us given the short distances we'll be doing almost exclusively zipping around Dublin and having a charger at home. For the handful of times we go to Galway or Cork each year (total trips of that distance could be counted on one hand) we'd be relying on public chargers and also the granny charge at the house we'd be staying at for both.

Use https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ it has an option to select your car, and should give you an idea how many charges will be needed for any particular car.

The battery issues probably won't affect you that much, but just keep it in mind when it comes to reselling the car.

loopymum · 26-05-2020 1:08am

What about an I3?

Sheep Shagger · 26-05-2020 8:12am

loopymum wrote: »

What about an I3?

Looked at them but were outside our price range.

Laviski · 26-05-2020 11:04am

liamog wrote: »

The battery issues probably won't affect you that much, but just keep it in mind when it comes to reselling the car.

what sells a car is its battery health and clear service history. If a car is kept in good shape the fact that it has active or passive thermal management is secondary.

Lantus · 26-05-2020 3:20pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Thanks, with the 2 kids want a five door but good to know.

Am trying to work out how the battery issue could affect us given the short distances we'll be doing almost exclusively zipping around Dublin and having a charger at home. For the handful of times we go to Galway or Cork each year (total trips of that distance could be counted on one hand) we'd be relying on public chargers and also the granny charge at the house we'd be staying at for both.

It may affect you only for those handful of journeys where you need to fast charge after a motorway stint. That's one hand or 5 or less times a year by my count. Not worth worrying about and you can always rent a car for those times if you fancy. Small cost in grand scheme.

liamog · 26-05-2020 4:27pm

Personally I'd just avoid buying a product from a company that made such an obvious mistake, especially considering they have 10 years experience.

Sheep Shagger · 26-05-2020 5:00pm

Lantus wrote: »

It may affect you only for those handful of journeys where you need to fast charge after a motorway stint. That's one hand or 5 or less times a year by my count. Not worth worrying about and you can always rent a car for those times if you fancy. Small cost in grand scheme.

Yeah don't think it will really affect is.

Is it a case that after a long distance drive the battery is too hot to charge straight away (and it will take time to cool down). The handful of times we go to Cork or Gakway we wouldn't be in a rush to fast charge straight away anyway.

liamog · 26-05-2020 5:20pm

According to ABRP, Dublin Cork would need about 175% of a Leaf 40kWh, I'd be planning two charges in that case, so you might just be impacted.

fricatus · 26-05-2020 5:45pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Is it a case that after a long distance drive the battery is too hot to charge straight away (and it will take time to cool down). The handful of times we go to Cork or Gakway we wouldn't be in a rush to fast charge straight away anyway.

Not exactly. The battery gets hot, so depending on the temperature, the Battery Management System (BMS) "throttles" or slows down the rate at which the charge can be delivered in, so as to protect the battery.

Normally if you drive the car down to 15-20%, the temperature doesn't get up to those levels straight away, so if you've to stop once, you can normally get OK speeds, like 40 kW or so, which means probably a 30-40 minute stop.

However that fast charge, plus subsequent driving is usually enough to make the battery hot enough that the next fast charge might be quite slow, maybe 15-20 kW. You'd probably be OK going from Dublin to Cork or Galway on that basis, especially if you can do a slow (destination) charge while you're there, because you'll probably only stop once on the way.

The downside is that the battery is really slow to cool down, so there's still some residual heat there the next day. That could mean that if you went straight home, your first fast charge might be quite slow.

If you can live with that restriction, by all accounts it's a really good car.

There are plenty of videos about this if you want to know more. Just search for "rapidgate" on YouTube. I would recommend any by Bjørn Nyland, as he's really thorough.

Laviski · 26-05-2020 6:57pm

for the 1% of journeys, can always rent an ICE when you have long drives and under time pressures that you don't want to stop or be worried about fast charge availability.

renting a ICE is cheap enough per day as a rare use and could drop at destination if they rental company has office near by.

I'm in the that boat at present, so depending on my own 1% I would take my time with the leaf to plan my stops (drive leaf speed as what the folks say), rent an ICE car or take train/bus.

liamog · 26-05-2020 7:18pm

Laviski wrote: »

for the 1% of journeys, can always rent an ICE when you have long drives and under time pressures that you don't want to stop or be worried about fast charge availability

That was a great suggestion 18 months ago, but there is so much choice now that doesn't have the Leaf battery issue. In fact, if Dublin to Cork was on my list of trips, I'd certainly avoid the Leaf for it's other issue, it's inability to use the Ionity chargers. They may be expensive but at least they are likely to be available.

Laviski · 26-05-2020 7:30pm

I couldn't justify the extra few k for the Ionic. Leaf maybe imperfect in your eyes, but it is perfect for my current and foreseeable future needs with potentially the same for OP.

yes if i could afford it would be get a M3 hands down. Ionic is a great car but too which would satisfy my need 100% but paying a few k less a leaf satisfying me 99% will do just nicely.

liamog · 26-05-2020 7:45pm

Right now I wouldn't recommend a new Ioniq either, never mind rapidgate, they screwed up the normal battery charging with it's low voltage.
For somebody with OPs needs, I think the Zoe 50 with CCS is probably the best car, followed by the e208 or Corsa E, Hyundai need to bring the Kona down below 30k to remain competitve, and the same for Kia with the Soul.

Sheep Shagger · 26-05-2020 8:04pm

fricatus wrote: »

Not exactly. The battery gets hot, so depending on the temperature, the Battery Management System (BMS) "throttles" or slows down the rate at which the charge can be delivered in, so as to protect the battery.

Normally if you drive the car down to 15-20%, the temperature doesn't get up to those levels straight away, so if you've to stop once, you can normally get OK speeds, like 40 kW or so, which means probably a 30-40 minute stop.

However that fast charge, plus subsequent driving is usually enough to make the battery hot enough that the next fast charge might be quite slow, maybe 15-20 kW. You'd probably be OK going from Dublin to Cork or Galway on that basis, especially if you can do a slow (destination) charge while you're there, because you'll probably only stop once on the way.

The downside is that the battery is really slow to cool down, so there's still some residual heat there the next day. That could mean that if you went straight home, your first fast charge might be quite slow.

If you can live with that restriction, by all accounts it's a really good car.

There are plenty of videos about this if you want to know more. Just search for "rapidgate" on YouTube. I would recommend any by Bjørn Nyland, as he's really thorough.

Thanks, that's very helpful, will check out those YouTube clips tonight.

For our use, for the budget and for the space the leaf is still coming out as our best option I think.

On the battery, for the 2-3 times we leave the province (Leinster) per year we will be driving somewhere to stay overnight so don't think we'll ever be having to try and fast charge twice in a day. We'll have time to do a DC charge too.

Lantus · 26-05-2020 8:09pm

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Yeah don't think it will really affect is.

Is it a case that after a long distance drive the battery is too hot to charge straight away (and it will take time to cool down). The handful of times we go to Cork or Gakway we wouldn't be in a rush to fast charge straight away anyway.

Question answered then. 40kw leaf is a great car all round bar the battery gate issue which won't affect you.

Sheep Shagger · 26-05-2020 8:30pm

liamog wrote: »

Right now I wouldn't recommend a new Ioniq either, never mind rapidgate, they screwed up the normal battery charging with it's low voltage.
For somebody with OPs needs, I think the Zoe 50 with CCS is probably the best car, followed by the e208 or Corsa E, Hyundai need to bring the Kona down below 30k to remain competitve, and the same for Kia with the Soul.

We really liked the Zoe with CCS but it's just a bit on the small side. Going to look at a leaf again tomorrow (and the e208 but that looks small too).

liamog · 26-05-2020 8:40pm

If the size clinches it then the extra space in the Leaf puts it in it's own bracket at the moment. There is the base ID.3 coming from VW but that's probably at least 6 months from general availabily.

kanuseeme · 26-05-2020 9:56pm

OP your going to spend 30 k on a car, make sure its fit for purpose, no point settling for something thats a tight squeeze, requires a 1 hour stop or a trip to a car rental, if a full EV does not suit you in that price bracket, consider waiting another little while for more choices or going for a plug in hybrid,

Lots of options available for you and best of luck.

Lantus · 27-05-2020 1:23am

Just to put things in perspective you can get a 1 or 2 year old sport line petrol automatic superb for 30k. Incredible car for money and all the space for kids you will ever need and trips wherever.

If not that then look at another but at least go sit in one and do an honest comparison. Car market is topping to consumer for good deals. At your money worlds your oyster.

Sheep Shagger · 30-05-2020 1:25pm

Test drived a e-208 this morning and again suprised by the cabin size, think it might marginally be bigger than the leaf. Battery size is a 50kw too.

So after looking and test driving a Zoe, leaf, egolf, and a e-208.

Heard the corsa when it comes out will be a little smaller in the back seat than a leaf.

Also heard the egolf is being discontinued (replaced with the I late this year). Was nice but the fact the model is being discontinued puts me off a bit.

So now to crunch the numbers but thi k it comes down to the leaf vs the e208.

EV vs PHEV - we spend 99% of our time in and around Dublin

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