How will schools be able to go back in September?

History Queen

Jim Root wrote: »

Teachers should be getting a 20% pay cut minimum while this is ongoing.

Why?

ldy4mxonucwsq6

HerrKuehn wrote: »

It is likely that there might be another shutdown during a second wave. There needs to be some sort of consistent plan. I think there should also be a review to see what schools have been doing, what has worked well, what % have kept up contact with pupils etc.

Given the decision on the leaving cert I wouldn't hold my breath for any semblance of a plan.

They had weeks to make alternative arrangements and took the easiest route possible (not necessarily the easiest for secondary teachers or students).

The thing is that as a country we can't afford to keep paying people if they aren't working and that includes teachers. I don't consider composing one email a week as deserving of a full teachers wage sorry.

Secondary school here has been excellent in doing surveys, communication, assigning work and providing feedback with a very good mix of formats.

Primary school and 3rd level college have been abysmal in my experience.

Murple

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

They are open for organisation and planning, they need to be looking at options to minimise risks now and not at the end of August.

All other workplaces have done this or are having to do the same.

Actually it is specified that schools may open from the 18th of May for the organisation and distribution of remote learning e.g. distributing laptops bought with the grant for students from disadvantaged backgrounds, distributing textbooks etc. Despite what some think, the 18th of May is not business as usual for all workplaces bar schools. It is a limited, controlled reopening of certain low risk activities. People are still asked to not travel unless essential.
The dept is currently consulting with different bodies such as patrons, BOM, teacher unions, principal organisations etc. as to what concerns and challenges exist and then they in turn will work towards providing guidelines for schools.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Jim Root wrote: »

Teachers should be getting a 20% pay cut minimum while this is ongoing.

Probably will be the case shortly and the unions will need to 'read the room' on that one.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Murple wrote: »

Actually it is specified that schools may open from the 18th of May for the organisation and distribution of remote learning e.g. distributing laptops bought with the grant for students from disadvantaged backgrounds, distributing textbooks etc.

All of that should have been done two months ago (and some schools have done that already without having to be told to do it).

If I stayed at home working and tried to use the excuse that I didn't have laptop/broadband/sufficient privacy/technical knowlegde (yes I've seen all of these excuses and more) to do my job I'd be very quickly given a choice..... Iose my job or get working.

Murple

Lillyfae wrote: »

This is what it says:



Wouldn't have unreliable or no broadband qualify as a "special limited circumstance"? And the facility to open schools exists, because the School Meals Programme is continuing as normal.

The School Meals programme is continuing but not ‘as normal’.
Also, many schools experience unreliable broadband as well, particularly those in more rural areas. It’s a constant issue now that many educational companies are replacing all teacher books, posters and resources with websites you must log in to and use online as these are largely useless in many classrooms.

Scruff101

s1ippy wrote: »

If you think the health service is to be held up as an example of good practice currently you haven't been paying any attention. The disastrous situation many people find themselves in waiting on treatments and for other tests besides coronavirus is going to have catastrophic outcomes.
/QUOTE]

I work in the health service and am well aware of it's flaws and the non covid related fall out from this.

However, the covid related work done by staff has been amazing. Speech therapists, OTs, physio's, social workers are gone outside of their comfort zone doing swabbing, contact tracing, working in residential units, going into nursing homes to do group testing when they're aware that there's been covid cases detected, etc. None of them signed up to do any of this but needs must.

Dublingirl80

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Probably will be the case shortly and the unions will need to 'read the room' on that one.

Do all jobs working from home deserve their pay to be cut by percent for working from home as well? And as for the people not working and receiving covid payment, no issue with them, just teachers who actually are working? Is that a correct summary?

HerrKuehn

s1ippy wrote: »

If you think the health service is to be held up as an example of good practice currently you haven't been paying any attention. The disastrous situation many people find themselves in waiting on treatments and for other tests besides coronavirus is going to have catastrophic outcomes.

I know, my wife works in the health service. I didn't say it was perfect, there were a lot of problems. They have, however, put in a huge effort over the last couple of months and we should be grateful for that. There certainly weren't people worried about going over their 48 hrs per week, or missing out on holidays they had planned.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

Do all jobs working from home deserve their pay to be cut by percent for working from home as well? And as for the people not working and receiving covid payment, no issue with them, just teachers who actually are working? Is that a correct summary?

We are all looking at pay cuts and increased taxes, this won't be one thing that's exclusive for teachers.

This will be across the board for anyone who's lucky enough to still have a job or business at the end of this.

Dublingirl80

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

We are all looking at pay cuts and increased taxes, this won't be one thing that's exclusive for teachers.

This will be across the board for anyone who's lucky enough to still have a job or business at the end of this.

If it applies to every single job then fair enough.

HerrKuehn

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

If it applies to every single job then fair enough.

If companies can afford to pay their staff the same as before, i'm sure many will. Other companies will close down for good with jobs lost permanently. We were all taxed last time to pay to keep the public sector in jobs. That is the difference. The USC wasn't levied to keep me in a job during the last bust.

Murple

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

All of that should have been done two months ago (and some schools have done that already without having to be told to do it).

If I stayed at home working and tried to use the excuse that I didn't have laptop/broadband/sufficient privacy/technical knowlegde (yes I've seen all of these excuses and more) to do my job I'd be very quickly given a choice..... Iose my job or get working.

2 months ago, schools were still open and had been told there was no plans to close them. 2 days later they were shut for 2 weeks with less 2 hours notice before the end of the school day with the instruction from the department to provide work for 2 weeks. Very soon after that, schools were instructed to shut altogether.Any school opening to distribute books etc was not entitled to do so.

My two siblings have been provided with laptops from work, both delivered to their homes. They have also been provided with IT support structures. They have both at times had to forgo doing certain work tasks due to internet issues and their workplaces have acknowledged it as an issue everywhere. Both usually spend the majority of their day at a computer screen so we’re well used to all the tasks they were being given. I, on the other hand, was provided with nothing, expected to get up to speed on a brand new system of teaching and learning with no support beyond a few basic YouTube clips and work with children who were also trying to get used to a totally new way of learning. But it’s teachers who have it easy apparently.

HerrKuehn

Murple wrote: »

2 months ago, schools were still open and had been told there was no plans to close them. 2 days later they were shut for 2 weeks with less 2 hours notice before the end of the school day with the instruction from the department to provide work for 2 weeks. Very soon after that, schools were instructed to shut altogether.Any school opening to distribute books etc was not entitled to do so.

My two siblings have been provided with laptops from work, both delivered to their homes. They have also been provided with IT support structures. They have both at times had to forgo doing certain work tasks due to internet issues and their workplaces have acknowledged it as an issue everywhere. Both usually spend the majority of their day at a computer screen so we’re well used to all the tasks they were being given. I, on the other hand, was provided with nothing, expected to get up to speed on a brand new system of teaching and learning with no support beyond a few basic YouTube clips and work with children who were also trying to get used to a totally new way of learning. But it’s teachers who have it easy apparently.

Over the period from March to September the schools will be closed for 3 1/2 months? So I would say yes you may have it a lot easier than your siblings. It is the continuous complaining from teachers that drives people nuts.

timmy_mallet

Murple wrote: »

2 months ago, schools were still open and had been told there was no plans to close them. 2 days later they were shut for 2 weeks with less 2 hours notice before the end of the school day with the instruction from the department to provide work for 2 weeks. Very soon after that, schools were instructed to shut altogether.Any school opening to distribute books etc was not entitled to do so.

My two siblings have been provided with laptops from work, both delivered to their homes. They have also been provided with IT support structures. They have both at times had to forgo doing certain work tasks due to internet issues and their workplaces have acknowledged it as an issue everywhere. Both usually spend the majority of their day at a computer screen so we’re well used to all the tasks they were being given. I, on the other hand, was provided with nothing, expected to get up to speed on a brand new system of teaching and learning with no support beyond a few basic YouTube clips and work with children who were also trying to get used to a totally new way of learning. But it’s teachers who have it easy apparently.

I think teachers deserve a lot of credit during this. It's not easy. Not only adapting to a new way of working overnight, but added to that essentially having the parents in the classroom with you too, nightmare.

Deeper Blue

Jim Root wrote: »

Teachers should be getting a 20% pay cut minimum while this is ongoing.

Sometimes I think people would only be happy if all the teachers worked for free, sure they only work a few hours a day and get half the year off, handy job that anyone could do :rolleyes:

s1ippy

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There certainly weren't people worried about going over their 48 hrs per week, or missing out on holidays they had planned.

Where are you getting any of that from, I haven't seen a single complaint of that nature here or anywhere. You need to address some of your vitriol towards people working in education as the system clearly did a number on you.

Scruff101 wrote: »

I work in the health service and am well aware of it's flaws and the non covid related fall out from this.

However, the covid related work done by staff has been amazing. Speech therapists, OTs, physio's, social workers are gone outside of their comfort zone doing swabbing, contact tracing, working in residential units, going into nursing homes to do group testing when they're aware that there's been covid cases detected, etc. None of them signed up to do any of this but needs must.

I didn't say that teachers signed up to do anything, frankly I don't believe that you work in the health service if you're batting for the side of the posters here who think that schools in their current form are adequate to protect people from spreading Covid.

My close relative worked in an unrelated area of the health service and they're doing testing now at one of the hubs, so I'm well aware of the bravery of those staff. There's just no comparison between that context and schools as they look right now.

The comment I was responding to referred the overall systems - health and education and how they have responded to the issues in the last two months. You, as someone apparently behind the scenes in health can say with certainty that HSE has done a lot of good in their response, with some obvious and extremely troubling outcomes in other areas. People in education settings are attesting to the work behind the scenes here and those are the ones I'm saying shouldn't get the onslaught of abuse.

Here are some examples of how members of the public in this thread want to punish teachers:
- reopening workplaces before guidelines can be safely followed
- 20% pay cuts
- generalised accusations of idleness
- blame for not being prepared for the March school closure with one day's notice
- blame for not immediately having a distance learning plan implemented
- suggestions that they should have broken guidelines to access schools before the lockdown is lifted

These criticisms are in spite of the fact that
- most if not all teachers I've encountered are engaging with management, colleagues, parents and students daily, although I understand some are only doing this weekly (none that I know personally)
- why should unionised workers who are in an unprecedented pandemic situation be selected to have their pay cut while they're working to adapt to what look like huge changes to the way they will do their jobs from now on
- I can't account for whether individuals are idle or not, no more than anyone else can. I'd love to see some fruits of cringegirl's past few weeks of labour, seeing as they seem to spend entire days of their time on here berating the education system
- many teachers sent work packs home for students when schools closed and quickly adapted to online tuition
- distance learning plans are still being continuously reviewed by schools in line with delivering better quality education in the face of diminishing engagement by students and parents
- many schools including the one in my area are providing essential services delivering meals to children, providing laptops to assist with remote learning and I've heard of others that are using their space to create PPE

I hope I've covered everything with that. If there's anyone who still thinks teachers should be roasted, take it up with Joe McHugh, Joe Duffy or their local TD.

timmy_mallet

NDWC wrote: »

Sometimes I think people would only be happy if all the teachers worked for free, sure they only work a few hours a day and get half the year off, handy job that anyone could do :rolleyes:

Quite. And then they'd complain, when 30 years down the line, children are uneducated after all the decent teachers left to drive taxis.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

timmy_mallet wrote: »

all the decent teachers left to drive taxis.

They might have to if the schools don't open again

Scruff101

s1ippy wrote: »

Where are you getting any of that from, I haven't seen a single complaint of that nature here or anywhere. You need to address some of your vitriol towards people working in education as the system clearly did a number on you.


I didn't say that teachers signed up to do anything, frankly I don't believe that you work in the health service if you're batting for the side of the posters here who think that schools in their current form are adequate to protect people from spreading Covid.
eir local TD.

Oh yeah that's right I'm pretending to work in the health service 😂😂😂😂 Would you like a screenshot of my HSE email signature to prove it? 🙄🙄🙄

My post was purely to point out the great work being done by many of the staff at the present time. That's all I was doing.

Deeper Blue

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Quite. And then they'd complain, when 30 years down the line, children are uneducated after all the decent teachers left to drive taxis.

It'd be da gubbermint's fault too of course

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Scruff101 wrote: »

Oh yeah that's right I'm pretending to work in the health service 😂😂😂😂 Would you like a screenshot of my HSE email signature to prove it? 🙄🙄🙄

My post was purely to point out the great work being done by many of the staff at the present time. That's all I was doing.

The health service certainly has risen to the challenge, very frightening time for frontline workers working directly in healthcare at the moment and those who support them. The hard work and sacrifice is very much appreciated.

The same can be said for all those working in other frontline essential services, every single one of them should be commended.

A lot of businesses have also shown great adaptability under the circumstances and these will be the ones who survive long term.

Jim Root

History Queen wrote: »

Why?

No one, in any sector, should be getting full pay if they are working a fraction of their normal hours. It doesn't make any sense.

Deeper Blue

Jim Root wrote: »

No one, in any sector, should be getting full pay if they are working a fraction of their normal hours. It doesn't make any sense.

Many teachers are working their normal hours

Lyle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

The thing is that as a country we can't afford to keep paying people if they aren't working and that includes teachers. I don't consider composing one email a week as deserving of a full teachers wage sorry.

Jim Root wrote: »

No one, in any sector, should be getting full pay if they are working a fraction of their normal hours. It doesn't make any sense.

How do you suggest they screen for those types ye describe across the entire country? How do you assess or prove the work being done on a person by person basis? You can't just lay into an entire profession cos a few aren't doing as much as you'd like to see.

The OH is a teacher, she's on a longer day than when she was in school. Up at 6/7am, fielding phone calls and emails from parents and staff alike from basically the second she's up most days. Locked away then till about 4 or 5 o'clock between trying to engage the kids during the usual school day hours, having to engage their parents, principal emails, other colleagues getting in touch, etc.

She's on the phone for hours every day, the calls can go on for a good chunk of time and while she's talking to one parent she's emailing another or correcting something submitted by a student or dealing with some admin b*llocks from her boss. She had to navigate the religious bullsh*t that comes with 6th class and has to deal with a wide variety of secondary schools as well at the moment because she has school leavers. Her stress levels are through the roof trying to do right by all these people, and she spent a chunk of the Easter break laying out lesson plans so she wouldn't be doing it now because she knew from before Easter that the parental engagement would eat her time up, so she barely caught a break there either.

Should she get docked 20% or whatever cos you're engaging with a teacher you're not happy with? My OH is busting her ass every day for weeks cos she cares about her job and those two dozen kids in her class.

These are unprecedented times. Much like the issues people have with certain workers getting the 350 Pandemic Unemployment Payment, this was a fast moving situation that teachers, kids and parents had to adjust to. Like the 350 quid, it's not perfect. Some people aren't pulling their weight, in the eyes of some, and others are f*cking dragging boulders up a mountain to try and help kids and their families through all this weirdness.

You don't know everyone's circumstances as it pertains to access to tech or a wide variety of other potential stumbling blocks, so you should probably just cool it with the broad sweeping general ridicule of teachers and hypothesising ways to f*ck over a vital cog of societal existence. Probably thousands of teachers are doing their best, we're all just trying to do our best. "Best" varies from person to person and day to day. We should be trying to support each other, it's deflating coming on here and seeing people acting the c*nt.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

NDWC wrote: »

Many teachers are working their normal hours

Some of your colleagues are letting down the entire education sector unfortunately.

I have experience with primary, secondary and 3rd level here and my experience has been that most of the secondary school teachers have been doing great work (which must be a huge workload for them given the amount of pupils and different years involved).

The primary school and 3rd level college efforts or lack of has been woeful and more or less non existent.

Jizique

History Queen wrote: »

But if the Leaving Cert (approx 1/6 of student cohort) which would have finished approx mid-August was deemed unsafe to proceed, it is difficult to justify opening schools to the whole student population in September. I would much prefer to see schools open normally as I think everyone, teachers/students/parents would like a return to normality. But based on government decisions such as cancellation of the LC I can't see it happening in the nirmal way in September anyway.

Was it not the students who decided that it was unsafe and forced that on the govt? Is there any point those students even thinking about college?
The schools need to open in September - they are currently reopening across Europe.

GT89

Over time as the economy reopens the advice about social distancing will have to change from all the time to as much as possible

jrosen

Screening productivity is relatively easy and there are lots of industries that do it.

We are weeks into this now and while plenty of other industries have adapted, it seems the experience of some families is that their particular schools have not.

Windorah

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Some of your colleagues are letting down the entire education sector unfortunately.

I have experience with primary, secondary and 3rd level here and my experience has been that most of the secondary school teachers have been doing great work (which must be a huge workload for them given the amount of pupils and different years involved).


The primary school and 3rd level college efforts or lack of has been woeful and more or less non existent.

I would love to know how you have such vast experience with such a wide cohort of professionals across the country???