How will schools be able to go back in September?

iguana

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

I was actually thinking of this lately. I'm 30 and from say my parents gen to now we've had it really good. TB, Polio and measles for the most part phased out. So to be honest it's a serious shock to a lot of under 60s even I'd say at the thought of having to live alongside something threatening like this. Wondering if c19 will be our TB at least for a couple years

I'm 41. I had measles in 1982. Mumps and rubella in '84. During that rubella outbreak a pregnant relative got infected and her baby was disabled due to it. Ireland only introduced the MMR in 1985. Measles, mumps and rubella were just seen as completely normal, though we called rubella 'german measles.' I remember when I had it my parents told my I could only play out in the back garden in case I infected anyone else. And my friends calling round being told I couldn't play, then coming back later to say their mam said it was ok because they'd had german measles already. A girl in my JI class in 83 was in a leg brace due to polio. in 1979, I caught whooping cough a few days before I was vaccinated against it, because the vaccine was so new the disease was still prevalent.

They were a completely normal part of life that we just lived with. I had loads of story books that involved kids with measles or mumps. (And I got a lot of gifts of them when I had those illnesses!) Mumps and rubella tended to be really mild illnesses for most kids. I had a slight sore throat/earache with mumps and no symptoms apart from the rash with rubella. I actually remember those weeks as a really nice time because everyone made a big fuss of me, my extended family brought me lots of presents and I got to eat a lot of ice-cream and custard. Some people suffered severe consequences, so suppressing those diseases is really important. And the fact that there are people who refuse to vaccinate because they won't think about the people who the diseases could be deadly for makes me really mad. But part of the reason those people feel like that is because those illnesses were a normal part of their childhood and they can't understand why it's so important to eradicate them.

Murple

I think school facilities, class size, classroom size, ventilation, outdoor space etc. all need to be considered. In my own school, we have some classrooms with attached toilets (2 shared between 30 children). We also have most classes sharing facilities (4 toilets and basins shared between up to 4 classes). How can regular handwashing as well as social distancing be facilitated in those circumstances? There are several classrooms where the windows can't all be opened and a number of others where they can only be opened a crack. We have tables for two. Even if they sat at each end, facing each other which would be far from suitable, they would still be a lot less than 2 metres apart. Our junior classes have round tables each seating 4. Most of our classrooms have no spare space when the desks are grouped together. To maintain any level of distance, we would be able to have about 6-8 children at a time.
We are lucky to have outdoor spaces but several local schools have little more than a chicken run. How pick up and drop off would be managed safely I don't know.
We can't just say well other countries are opening schools so why can't we. Many other countries have classes no bigger than 20 children particularly in primary schools. They also have much larger classrooms, outdoors spaces, wider corridors etc. Most schools in this country have part time cleaners. They come in at the end of the day. Where are schools to get sufficient cleaning supplies as well as suitable cleaners to clean surfaces repeatedly during the day?
In Denmark a petition was started by parents demanding that children not be used as guinea pigs as they viewed reopening schools as an experiment and I have to say I agree. Where else are they proposing all of a sudden to allow hundreds of people congregate at close quarters and spend hours together and then return to individual homes where people of all ages live? If it was adults being instructed to return to an office or other work environment in similar circumstances, it wouldn't be allowed.
Before schools closed and we were just beginning the cover your coughs and wash hands advice, even that was difficult to enforce with younger children. They have the best of intentions for the first 5 minutes after you remind them and then they forget. They yawn opened mouthed and don't see that that's the same as coughing uncovered! We had children returning after midterm having been away in Italy, Spain, France etc. and had several instances of these children feeling unwell and parents refusing to keep them at home as they felt they were fine. This was as a high number of cases were emerging from Italy especially around ski resorts.
Schools will have to reopen and it will need to be under changed circumstances but given the type of environments they are, it needs to be with extreme caution and not as a babysitting service.
If we are looking to Denmark we should also consider they have double our population but have had roughly half our number of cases and deaths so far.

Gregor Samsa

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I don't buy the stance that "only reopening the schools", even a partial reopening for a certain cohort of students, would be a "gradual" de-confinement.

You get the kids in school, you are realistically exposing all parents and a good chunk of caregivers (who might very well be grannies where people have no other option) for all the teachers/SNAs'/janitors' children who need minding.

The research seems to be suggesting that children are actually not as serious a vector for transmission as was previously feared.

This is just one report from 2 weeks ago: HIQA - Evidence summary for spread of COVID19 by children A cursory Google search dosn't turn up much more recent stuff, so maybe there's more up to date informaton on this either way.

So like everything else in this situation, I wouldn't take this as conclusive yet. But it's a signifiant part of the debate that transmission rates from children seem to be very low.

rwald7

If we are looking to Denmark we should also consider they have double our population but have had roughly half our number of cases and deaths so far.[/QUOTE]

Denmark doesn't have double our population. It has a population of 5.8m, so less than a million more than Ireland.

r93kaey5p2izun

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

The research seems to be suggesting that children are actually not as serious a vector for transmission as was previously feared.

This is just one report from 2 weeks ago: HIQA - Evidence summary for spread of COVID19 by children A cursory Google search dosn't turn up much more recent stuff, so maybe there's more up to date informaton on this either way.

So like everything else in this situation, I wouldn't take this as conclusive yet. But it's a signifiant part of the debate that transmission rates from children seem to be very low.

But we should also not forget that our own NPHET stated that the R0 dropped from around 4.5 to 2.7 once schools closed, but before lockdown. Whatever the cause, the schools being open is a significant cause of the virus spreading.

eastie17

What if we all just stopped talking about it, stopped testing for it in hospitals and the media stopped reporting on it, like in China, then it all just goes away?

Birdy

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

But we should also not forget that our own NPHET stated that the R0 dropped from around 4.5 to 2.7 once schools closed, but before lockdown. Whatever the cause, the schools being open is a significant cause of the virus spreading.

This is why they'll only be opening primary schools in May. No secondary or colleges.

Gregor Samsa

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

But we should also not forget that our own NPHET stated that the R0 dropped from around 4.5 to 2.7 once schools closed, but before lockdown. Whatever the cause, the schools being open is a significant cause of the virus spreading.

Yeah, more research is obviously needed.

One thing that coincided with the schools being closed was parents working from home. I know that in my company literally every parent started WFH on the day the schools closed. So we were all at home long before the lockdown. I know that didn't necessiarly happen everywhere, but it did seem to be somewhat common. Purely anecdotal, but it could also be a factor in the R0 dropping at that time.

r93kaey5p2izun

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

Yeah, more research is obviously needed.

One thing that coincided with the schools being closed was parents working from home. I know that in my company literally every parent started WFH on the day the schools closed. So we were all at home long before the lockdown. I know that didn't necessiarly happen everywhere, but it did seem to be somewhat common. Purely anecdotal, but it could also be a factor in the R0 dropping at that time.

Sure. And once kids are back in school a massive number of those WFH will be back in the workplace too.

Gregor Samsa

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

Sure. And once kids are back in school a massive number of those WFH will be back in the workplace too.

Well, that depends on whether the regulations allow for that or not. It's very likely that schools will open while other business stay shut.

My company is actually technically designated as an essential service - so we could stay open - but they've chosen to close all office globally in any case. But they've said that once the general prohibition on office working is lifted, they’ll appraise whether it's appropriate to allow people back into each office on a case by case basis. Even if they do, they've said they'll put some kind of social distancing measures in place - one proposal is to split the office into two groups, with each being given designated alternating days that they can come in.

I don't think there's just going to be a flood back to normality once things begin to ease.

Charles Babbage

Handwashing at schools (and other public buildings) should be at the door and not the Jacks. Handwashing and temperature check or you can't come in.

r93kaey5p2izun

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

Well, that depends on whether the regulations allow for that or not. It's very likely that schools will open while other business stay shut.

My company is actually technically designated as an essential service - so we could stay open - but they've chosen to close all office globally in any case. But they've said that once the general prohibition on office working is lifted, they’ll appraise whether it's appropriate to allow people back into each office on a case by case basis. Even if they do, they've said they'll put some kind of social distancing measures in place - one proposal is to split the office into two groups, with each being given designated alternating days that they can come in, and people obviously spread out in the office.

I don't think there's just going to be a flood back to normality once things begin to ease. One of the problems is actually going to be convincing people that they can go back to doing some things, because obviously they want to protect themselves. From talking to some people on my team, I know they are not planning on going back into the office at all until they are sure that the risk is significantly mitigated against.

You only have to look at the comments here. Posters totally unconcerned for actual education, but chomping at the bit for schools to reopen so "we can get back to work". Once schools open most people will expect to be back to normal. They aren't going to pack their kids off to school and then sit at home all day. Even the fact they'll have to be out and about dropping and collecting will massively increase the movement of people. Schools opening means most households are on the move.

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Handwashing at schools (and other public buildings) should be at the door and not the Jacks. Handwashing and temperature check or you can't come in.

Imagine the logistics of trying to implement this in a sector that in many cases couldn't provide soap right up until closure due to a pandemic! And let's say a child's temperature is high so they can't be admitted - unless the parent is standing waiting for them then you can't send them home until parent arrives. So then, parents will have to wait to check child is admitted - a whole lot more congregation. And given many parents are already notorious for sending in sick kids dosed with Calpol and then doing a runner and ignoring phone calls that the child is sick, I'm sceptical this won't happen for coronavirus.

iguana

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Handwashing at schools (and other public buildings) should be at the door and not the Jacks. Handwashing and temperature check or you can't come in.

I think that the vast majority of children who get CV never have a temperature. A mild cough and loose stool tend to be the main presentation in children. The same symptoms that young children have on a constant on and off basis throughout the winter. If children have to be out of school for week or two every time they have a slight cough or a runny poo they'd miss anywhere from a third to two thirds of the year.

Sober Crappy Chemis

Where is it being mentioned that primary schools might reopen in May? Can't find any source?

Sierra Oscar

Sober Crappy Chemis wrote: »

Where is it being mentioned that primary schools might reopen in May? Can't find any source?

In was reported in multiple papers last Saturday and Sunday.

Ray Donovan

What would teachers think of actually being in a small room with 30 other people for 5.5 hours of the day? Teachers aren't guinea pigs either.

jrosen

If schools stay closed until September I think there will be a lot of parents already back to work albeit in a limited capacity.
I would think based on feedback from friends that any company that can start to have people back on site will. I would imagine productivity is down for many businesses.

o1s1n

eastie17 wrote: »

What if we all just stopped talking about it, stopped testing for it in hospitals and the media stopped reporting on it, like in China, then it all just goes away?

Along with your grandparents if you have any

wirelessdude01

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

In was reported in multiple papers last Saturday and Sunday.

If that is the case then why are bother with all the work that has so far occured with the redeployment of SNAs?

khalessi

Ray Donovan wrote: »

What would teachers think of actually being in a small room with 30 other people for 5.5 hours of the day? Teachers aren't guinea pigs either.

First, it would be medically and morally iressponsible to put 30+ children with a teacher and in somecases an SNA in a class. There have been suggestions to use them to test the R0 levels once its below 1, here in various threads and to use them to spread at a controlled level Covid to acheive herd immunity, shocking!

Second, I would feel uncomfortable worrying about my health, the children's health, their families health and my family's health about what we could all be bringing home.

Third, what about children with underlying conditions which prior to Covid19 were a concern but not a major one but now might mean they stay at home.

It has been suggested to bring in junior to second in the morning and third to sixth in the afternoon or alernate days with them. Classes of 30+ children would need to be split into 3 or more smaller groups and the schools would have to deep cleaned everyday and not just a mop dragged across the floor but proper cleaning which cleaners would not have experience of.

People go, look at Denmark, but they have smaller classes to begin with and the classes on tv today looked to have only about 8 children in the class group spread around the class. I cant even imagine that being done here due to space issues and just lack of thought by DoEd

So many issues to be sorted before even thinking about getting them back into school.

LilyShame

I don't think working parents will instantly return to a work building or location straight away...they would work from home while the under 12 education and care has some type of face to face reinstatement. The difference is the parent would produce some outputs for their employers or their own business, rather than struggling to get things done, and not very well, or at all. Children when at home have to be the priority. So WFH is a very loose description!

Murple

So basically put all children and those adults that work in schools at heightened risk in situations where social distancing and recommended hand hygiene practices are near impossible while the parents continue to work from home?

r93kaey5p2izun

LilyShame wrote: »

I don't think working parents will instantly return to a work building or location straight away...they would work from home while the under 12 education and care has some type of face to face reinstatement. The difference is the parent would produce some outputs for their employers or their own business, rather than struggling to get things done, and not very well, or at all. Children when at home have to be the priority. So WFH is a very loose description!

If it's safe for tens of thousands of teachers, and hundreds of thousands of children, to return to school, then why wouldn't it be safe for parents to return to work in most cases? At that stage hundreds of thousands of households will have a child mixing daily with multiple people, so is there much point in them continuing to WFH at that stage? If it's ok for all of these people to be sent back to a situation where effective social distancing is nearly impossible, then why would WFH still be needed for the parents?

R11

Headline in today's independent says schools may open one day a week.
"In an interview with the Sunday Independent, Mr Harris said reopening schools for one day a week was just one of the measures being considered by the Government as part of a number of plans to ease the Covid-19 restrictions."
How will this be done? All pupils back one day a week? What happens at yard times? I'm a primary teacher, there's no way that kids will keep their distance at break times...

Bobeagleburger

Can't see how they will put 30-40 kids into a classroom if the virus is still in the community. Same for crèches

R11

6 wrote: »

Can't see how they will put 30-40 kids into a classroom if the virus is still in the community. Same for crèches

Yes, fully agree, just doesn't make sense...

khalessi

R11 wrote: »

Headline in today's independent says schools may open one day a week.
"In an interview with the Sunday Independent, Mr Harris said reopening schools for one day a week was just one of the measures being considered by the Government as part of a number of plans to ease the Covid-19 restrictions."
How will this be done? All pupils back one day a week? What happens at yard times? I'm a primary teacher, there's no way that kids will keep their distance at break times...

Totally agree, total madness if whole school comes back. The actual planning of this will no doubt be left to the schools,in my case over 900 kids on one day, not good

This was my worry, a half assed plan but hopefully in early planning stages

gnf_ireland

R11 wrote: »

Headline in today's independent says schools may open one day a week.
"In an interview with the Sunday Independent, Mr Harris said reopening schools for one day a week was just one of the measures being considered by the Government as part of a number of plans to ease the Covid-19 restrictions."
How will this be done? All pupils back one day a week? What happens at yard times? I'm a primary teacher, there's no way that kids will keep their distance at break times...

Maybe they are proposing 1 day a week for students but 3-4 days a week for teachers. Split the classes into 3 or 4 groups and bring in a group each day - so numbers are down from ~30 to 8 per class per day.

I am sure that would work with social distancing rules and much easier manage in the classroom. Mixed grade classes could balance it based on the numbers per class

khalessi

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Maybe they are proposing 1 day a week for students but 3-4 days a week for teachers. Split the classes into 3 or 4 groups and bring in a group each day - so numbers are down from ~30 to 8 per class per day.

I am sure that would work with social distancing rules and much easier manage in the classroom. Mixed grade classes could balance it based on the numbers per class

They would definitely need to be split. We have 120 children approx in each year group so would need to be split into groups of 6 max for social distancing otherwise a mockery.

Also if they split them and use other teachers to teach them, do they still plan for their previous year group?

kala85

Makes no sense.

They won't run the leaving cert in June with just a smaller number of students but yet want schools to reopen?