How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

Geuze

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

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How will we pay for this? Why, transfer all the debt to the ECB, default and let the ECB go bankrupt . . . Then we revert back to the Irish Punt.

As we never had our own independent currency, this plan won't work.

1922 to 1979, IR£1 = GBP1, pegged exchange rate

1979-1999 linked to DM in EMS

maneno

bosco12345 wrote: »

Hi all,
I have a query in regards the Covid-19 payment of 350 euro. I am currently a student and I have received the 350 weekly. However, I am wondering if I will be taxed on this at the end of the year? I've heard some people mention that do not spend this money as you will have to repay this money at some stage. Is that true? In my part time job I have only earned about 500 euro from the start of January and I was going to use this covid-19 money to repay my tuition fees.
Any response would be appreciated,
thanks

Not to have a go at you but the covid payment in your scenario is madness, you earned €500 from the start of January and now you are on €350 a week?

landofthetree

Who will pay for it? Look in the mirror.

bosco12345

bosco12345 wrote: »

Hi all,
I have a query in regards the Covid-19 payment of 350 euro. I am currently a student and I have received the 350 weekly. However, I am wondering if I will be taxed on this at the end of the year? I've heard some people mention that do not spend this money as you will have to repay this money at some stage. Is that true? In my part time job I have only earned about 500 euro from the start of January and I was going to use this covid-19 money to repay my tuition fees.
Any response would be appreciated,
thanks

There’s something really really wrong with this post. I wonder how many others are seriously benefiting from this pandemic.

Danzy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There’s something really really wrong with this post. I wonder how many others are seriously benefiting from this pandemic.

Very few, some benefited from the last time the world had a great depression but everyone was glad when it was over.

Besides 350 a week is not seriously benefiting, bit of perspective.

As long as he spends it, that's all that matters economically.

radiotrickster

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There’s something really really wrong with this post. I wonder how many others are seriously benefiting from this pandemic.

Outside of my full-time job, I work a zero hours contract in another role and the team of casual workers were laid off.

Most people usually earn about 80-200 max a month from the job and the Covid payment really split the team in the group chats, some arguing fiercely that it’s more money in a week than you’d earn in a month so we shouldn’t drain the emergency fund.

Caused a lot of arguments about entitlement and I can’t imagine the team working well together again, if needed!

Either way, the government addressed it at some point I think and said that not enough people would be gaining from it to make a tiered system worthwhile.

Idbatterim

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There’s something really really wrong with this post. I wonder how many others are seriously benefiting from this pandemic.

If you think something is wrong with this , what do you think about the large amount that have never worked and bleed the system dry ?

Yurt2

Idbatterim wrote: »

If you think something is wrong with this , what do you think about the large amount that have never worked and bleed the system dry ?

How large is this amount of people?

1% of the population? 2,3,4,5%?

To what extend in euro and cent have they bled the system dry?

I'm not in favour of long-term unemployment btw, but this miniscule part of the population were not, and are not responsible for any economic predicament Ireland found itself in, in the past or at present.

Once again, you're wilfully missing what's going on to obssess on a problem that is basically a canard to distract the gullible.

zerosugarbuzz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There’s something really really wrong with this post. I wonder how many others are seriously benefiting from this pandemic.

I wouldn’t stress too much over it, in the end the tax payer will be picking up the tab. This kid is thinking about paying off his student loans, weighed down with debt and hasn’t even started a career yet, that’s what you should be indignant about. When he does finally get a job he can start chipping away at the national debt created probably when he was still in primary school, laughable.

plodder

noodler wrote: »

NAMA has collected more for the loans than it has paid, hence the profit.

If you are talking about the book value of the loans then you are being silly. There is a reason discounts of 55% were applied.

Trust me, the fear was the State would never get back the money paid and it has.

On that narrow but important metric, NAMA has succeeded.

Important to whom? The senior staff of NAMA so they were seen to perform well to their employers in government? Maybe.

The only number that matters to the people of this country is the 55% discount (or 58% which I think is what it ended up as). That's the money loaded on our national debt.

KyussB

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

The ECB is not a bottomless money pit, sooner or later it will have to be recapitalised by it's shareholders or restructured, and that sets up a political dogfight between Germany and the Netherlands on one side and the other countries of the Eurozone. Some of these countries politicians have an axe to grind since the 2008 crisis. So yes with its current structure the ECB can go bankrupt.

That's exactly what the ECB is. The ECB (not the NCB's, the ECB...) is the one entity that can never involuntarily fail to pay its debts.

plodder

Who is going to pay for this? All of us to varying extents. The self-employed who can't cook their books, or seriously can't afford to shutdown completely* are being thrown under the bus as regards supports, but will be expected to cough up when the bill has to be repaid.

* the reason for this is some self-employed have a small number of overseas (often) clients built up over years, for whom it would be suicidal to turn down whatever small bits of business are available. It's not like an employee who loses their job and if/when the economy restarts can return to the same job or get another one. Businesses built up over decades don't work that way.

It may be a surprise to some, but the world economy has not shut down completely. It has contracted drastically over the last few weeks but being able to rebound means continuing to service the small amount of work that is still available.

Failing to support the self-employed the same way that the UK and Germany have (for example) will be seen is a big mistake imo. It has essentially legitimised tax-dodging by those self-employed who provide essential services, and can be paid in cash.

tom1ie

plodder wrote: »

Important to whom? The senior staff of NAMA so they were seen to perform well to their employers in government? Maybe.

The only number that matters to the people of this country is the 55% discount (or 58% which I think is what it ended up as). That's the money loaded on our national debt.

or you could look at it another way and say that prices were 58% too high at the time of the bubble bursting, brought on by people spending too much and taking on too much.
Aided of course by our banks, but they are merely providing a service, it is up to people not to take on debt and over extend themselves.

Captcha

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Maybe a massive hike in import tariffs for stuff from China. People will pay it as they, now all addicted to alibalibabba and wish. At least while they wean themselves off it

This would be great, 200% tarrifs at minimum. We need to make stuff again and use more automation & innovation. Having slave labor in China limits investments in automation. If the problem becomes bigger, we will see innovation & investment in more automation. Bring back critical manufacturing first, PPE, drugs etc... over 90% of drugs active ingredients are made in China. We are at their mercy!

The communists mantra has always been give the rope to the West and they will hang themselves. We need to use this crisis to change that. Move to anywhere but CCP China and bring at least the most critical back into the EU / US

salonfire

pure.conya wrote: »

And if you want to hear EXACTLY how the greeks and Yanis Varoufakis were screwed over by the IMF/troika here you go

https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2020/02/14/varoufakis-to-release-eurogorup-recordings-euroleaks/

If they were getting so screwed over, why did they Greeks keep accepting bail-outs?

Because without the IMF Greece would have been sent back to the Stone Age and they know that.

Balf

I think worth a thread.

Varadkar says €115m per month is an 'accurate estimate' for cost of renting private hospitals

This is, apparently, the not for profit cost. Doesn't include the cost of the private consultants.

Some work seems to have moved there, but public hospitals actually have free capacity at present. The private space isn't currently needed and, if the HSE weren't paying, it would have stayed largely empty with the cost falling on the private hospital owners.

One to watch, I suspect. Good to see political interest in it, as there's a need for challenge if we're in for the long haul and the world we find ourselves in is the new normal.

Beasty

Threads merged

Dorakman

Which would you prefer, given we’re going to have to fork out pretty soon?

Salary Negotiator

Widen the tax net, cut current spending and increase capital spending.

who what when

A 100 year bond should be issued to whatever countries need it for whatever amount they need. If it can be done during wartime i don't see why a pandemic should be any different

saabsaab

who what when wrote: »

A 100 year bond should be issued to whatever countries need it for whatever amount they need. If it can be done during wartime i don't see why a pandemic should be any different

Yes. It is a war all bets are off.

Graham

Interesting piece in todays Guardian

Coronavirus has destroyed the myth of the deficit

Basically reiterating what several posters here have already suggested.

KyussB

^^ Gratifying to see MMT having not just entered the mainstream, but on the cusp of being actual policy in many countries, now. The amount of shit I got for discussing it over the last decade here, bans even.

2u2me

KyussB wrote: »

^^ Gratifying to see MMT having not just entered the mainstream, but on the cusp of being actual policy in many countries, now. The amount of shit I got for discussing it over the last decade here, bans even.

Just how far can they go with this though, surely there is a tit's up situation if they push it too far? i.e. hyperinflation?

KyussB

They can go as far as Full Output (in other words, get rid of the Output Gap) - and this is basically the same as reaching Full Emplyment.

So it's safe to spend that way, up to the point of Full Employment - then spending has to be pulled back, or it will push inflation up. This leaves no room for excessive inflation.

Hyperinflation is nearly always caused by industrial collapse of part of an economy - where a huge chunk of GDP can no longer be produced, because something has made it physically impossible (thus making the poiint of Full Output massively lower).

Balf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Graham wrote: »

Interesting piece in todays Guardian

Coronavirus has destroyed the myth of the deficit

Basically reiterating what several posters here have already suggested.

The article is assuming a positive outcome, while the wheels are still spinning.

The fact that massive cost is being incurred now absolutely does not mean a positive outcome is inevitable. Quite silly for someone to say so.

Danzy

A positive outcome would be a year long severe recession, with stimulus, vivid payments etc.

A not positive is a global depression.

Harry Palmr

A proposal by George Soros to finance the proposed €1 trillion package with "perpetual" bonds (which historically have been paid back in the end) reckons the cost of servicing the debt would be about 5 billion a year from the EU budget (or about 3% as of now). The EU budget is 1.02% of members gross national income so to find the money to pay the interest is essentially loose change.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/21/eu-should-use-perpetual-bonds-to-finance-covid-19-recovery-fund

Balf

Harry Palmr wrote: »

A proposal by George Soros to finance the proposed €1 trillion package with "perpetual" bonds (which historically have been paid back in the end) reckons the cost of servicing the debt would be about 5 billion a year from the EU budget (or about 3% as of now). The EU budget is 1.02% of members gross national income so to find the money to pay the interest is essentially loose change.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/21/eu-should-use-perpetual-bonds-to-finance-covid-19-recovery-fund

How about interest only mortgages while we're at it, to solve the housing market.

Look you can't just stop the actual economy and not experience the cost of lost activity, or the disruption to supply chains and contractual arrangements.

Meanwhile, in the real world, there's now a strong risk of widespread famine because of the impact of lockdowns on the countries and peoples least able to afford them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52373888

Hotblack Desiato

Captcha wrote: »

This would be great, 200% tarrifs at minimum. We need to make stuff again and use more automation & innovation.

Throughout history, protectionism has ended up making everyone poorer whenever it's been tried.

The communists mantra has always been give the rope to the West and they will hang themselves. We need to use this crisis to change that. Move to anywhere but CCP China and bring at least the most critical back into the EU / US

So because of fear the Chinese will whack up the cost of their goods and strangle Western economies, we're going to whack up the price of Chinese goods ourselves. Cunning plan...