Sweden avoiding lockdown

Loafing Oaf

timsey tiger wrote: »

Reports of fast tracked vaccines being ready to roll out in September today from UK.

I guess these might be wishful thinking or complete over selling

Gives you more confidence when it's the scientists themselves saying it but yeah, let's wait and see...

Joe_ Public

Logan Roy wrote: »

I'm not aware of any success stories tbh, of course a virus isn't going to spread if you stop people moving around. The real success will be lifting restrictions and not having a resurgence, there's no proof of this anywhere yet.

Ok fair point. Success story probably premature terminology. Those coping best at least. Look, i hope the best for sweden and if it turns out they're on a good path along, that's great. Just I'm ok with way we're going. Some talking like we've never been in pandemic before. But there's good evidence of effect of lockdowns going back to 1918, i dont see we're totally shooting blind here but only time can be the ultimate arbiter on that.

thebaz

and thers Belarus, where the President reccomends Vodka and saunas will kill virus:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nadbJcgVFE

Not sure about the vodka, but saunas wont work

Greentopia

suicide_circus wrote: »

Sweden has a history of massaging figures for media consumption

Such as?

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed.... Rape etc

Does it really need to be explained yet again that Sweden records rape statistics differently to other countries, treating each incidence of rape as such- example someone is raped twice by the same person in a single incident is two charges of rape.

Sweden is one of the most transparent and least corrupt nations on earth, ranked 4th last year and consistently ranking in the top 5 least corrupt countries in the world.
Ireland is 18 btw.

niallo27

thebaz wrote: »

and thers Belarus, where the President reccomends Vodka and saunas will kill virus:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nadbJcgVFE

Not sure about the vodka, but saunas wont work

Only 23 reported dead, I wonder how bad it really is. Be interesting.

Bit cynical

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

Any country can continue as normal if they are willing to accept that many people will die.

Sweden seem to be ok with a higher death than other countries.

Although they don't have the sever restrictions of other countries it does look like their death rate per million due to the virus is lower than a fair number of other countries, including France, Belgium etc. This may be due to their being a fairly conformist country that obeys guidelines. Although they don't have the same level of legal restrictions, the cities are generally quieter.

Housing may also play a part. It is much more common in Sweden to live in your own small apartment before forming a family than, say, Ireland where flat and house sharing or living in the parental home is common. Room sharing with strangers is common in the inner cities in Ireland.

It is still too early to say which country has the right approach. When this is over, things like the economy will have to be factored in. My worry in Ireland is that we may succeed in suppressing the virus but at some point, restrictions will have to be lifted in order to get some sort of economy that can be taxed to pay for services including medical services, pensions and so on.

I don't think the Swedish model is right for every country but it may prove to be the right model for Sweden when this is all over.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

metricspaces wrote: »

Ok. I guess you know better and the Dept of Health lied yesterday when they said that people who needed ICU were not being denied based on age. Never let the facts get in the way of a good drama or conspiracy theory.

No conspiracy theory, just facts.

Supportive/palliative care mainly offered for nursing home residents who contract coronavirus.

Nursing homes are being very transparent on this, if you have a relative in a nursing home go ask them what the procedure will be if they get infected they will tell you.

Unfortunately the prognosis in general for someone in a nursing home would not be good, heartbreaking. The ICUs would be bursting otherwise but they aren't yet despite the number of daily deaths, so I'm sure you can work that out for yourself.

Logan Roy

Logan Roy wrote: »

I feel like we never think outside of the box in this country, it's always a case of following everyone else and usually from far behind. It's only through referendums that we have actually done anything you could consider progressive. Ultra conservative politics rule round these parts unfortunately.

yes. we're followers

niallo27

It appears that if any country numbers are on the lower scale there has to be a conspiracy around it or there are lying about the numbers.

niallo27

niallo27 wrote: »

It appears that if any country numbers are on the lower scale there has to be a conspiracy around it or there are lying about the numbers.

does appear that China is trying cover up control the narrative on how it broke out...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/deleted-pages-suggest-china-clamping-down-on-coronavirus-research-1.4227107

2u2me

Greentopia wrote: »

Sweden is one of the most transparent and least corrupt nations on earth, ranked 4th last year and consistently ranking in the top 5 least corrupt countries in the world.
Ireland is 18 btw.

I have too much time on my hands and was interested in seeing this list. I found it here.

Why is Gabon in as a corruption rank of 4th (Yes 4th!) with a corruption score of 31. That seems pretty corrupt to me. Our score of 73 was much higher than theirs.

KiKi III

niallo27 wrote: »

It appears that if any country numbers are on the lower scale there has to be a conspiracy around it or there are lying about the numbers.

Some countries are almost definitely lying.

Some countries are not lying but they are recording things differently.

It makes side-by-side comparisons difficult.

Mongfinder General

KiKi III wrote: »

Some countries are almost definitely lying.

Some countries are not lying but they are recording things differently.

It makes side-by-side comparisons difficult.

A country of over a billion records 80000 cases.

Italy, Spain and the U.S. have recorded 10 times as many cases between them and their combined populations are not even half that of China.

The Chinese are lying.

2u2me

KiKi III wrote: »

Some countries are almost definitely lying.

Some countries are not lying but they are recording things differently.

It makes side-by-side comparisons difficult.

I would say most if not all countries' number of infected is off up to an order of magnitude. This doesn't necessarily mean they're lying. It only proves how unprepared we were for such a crisis.

What countries would you say are lying?

Joe_ Public

Just to speak up for lil ol ireland, we're not by any measure the worlds biggest trailblazers, but we do have our rare moments. Not just same sex marriage or other referenda stuff. Some years back i think we were the first to put the tax on plastic bags and may be even the first to ban smoking in public places too. Not sure how many others have given a commitment to selling off all its fossil fuels. Small stuff, i know, that doesnt really get remembered but I'm kinda proud of those things anyway.

2u2me

Mongfinder General wrote: »

A country of over a billion records 80000 cases.

Italy, Spain and the U.S. have recorded 10 times as many cases between them and their combined populations are not even half that of China.

The Chinese are lying.

Are you aware that they enforced a draconian lockdown for a duration of 11 weeks, much earlier than the rest of the world, that just ended in the last few days? Do you think it had any effect on the spread of the virus?

dsmythy

2u2me wrote: »

Are you aware that they enforced a draconian lockdown for a duration of 11 weeks, much earlier than the rest of the world, that just ended in the last few days? Do you think it had any effect on the spread of the virus?

They were late themselves on their lockdown. But I can get how an Authoritarian regime might be able to enact a true lockdown compared to western attempts.

The Chinese lock-down was beyond anything that is happening/ happened in the Western world.

astrofool

2u2me wrote: »

I have too much time on my hands and was interested in seeing this list. I found it here.

Why is Gabon in as a corruption rank of 4th (Yes 4th!) with a corruption score of 31. That seems pretty corrupt to me. Our score of 73 was much higher than theirs.

I think that's a bug on the web page.

Joe_ Public

That chinese lockdown definitely seemed the real deal. The irish times had a piece with an irish guy living in wuhan last week. He was on day 64 of not being able to leave his apartment.

Dravokivich

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Just to speak up for lil ol ireland, we're not by any measure the worlds biggest trailblazers, but we do have our rare moments. Not just same sex marriage or other referenda stuff. Some years back i think we were the first to put the tax on plastic bags and may be even the first to ban smoking in public places too. Not sure how many others have given a commitment to selling off all its fossil fuels. Small stuff, i know, that doesnt really get remembered but I'm kinda proud of those things anyway.

We weren't the first with smoking bans in public places.

The difference with the Same Sex Marriage thing, was that the public needed to vote it through. Whereas elsewhere, governments could get it through without putting a vote to the public on it.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Dravokivich wrote: »

We weren't the first with smoking bans in public places.

No but we were the first country in the world to ban smoking in all workplaces, I think that's the ban they were referring to.

timsey tiger

I think we were the first country with a complete workplace ban on smoking.

Joe_ Public

Clark Dry Kidney wrote: »

No but we were the first country in the world to ban smoking in all workplaces, I think that's the ban they were referring to.

Yes, that's it, thank you. I just knew we'd banned something somewhere, you have to take whatever small victory you can get!!

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yes, that's it, thank you. I just knew we'd banned something somewhere, you have to take whatever small victory you can get!!

While we aren't perfect for a small island nation we have trailblazed plenty of times throughout recent times and past history.

I get what you're saying about being proud, I love this country always have always will.

I do think we have done as good a job as possible so far with this virus. While there will always be a handful of gob****e citizens I believe our government, health services, front line and essential workers along with individual communities have more than stepped up to the plate.

kowloon

Dravokivich wrote: »

We weren't the first with smoking bans in public places.

I seem to remember that being a thing in New York before it was here.

Greentopia

frillyleaf wrote: »

Does Sweden have the right approach to this and how is their healthcare system being able to manage Covid19 cases?

As I stated in another thread, I was sceptical at the beginning but I do understand now why they have chosen the path they have having listened to their state epidemiologist and Prime Minister explain it.

I don't know if it's the right approach, only time will tell, but I understand their logic and rationale and believe it is possibly the correct one for their country, given their rather unique social, political and cultural background.

Their healthcare system is universal, well funded at 11% of GDP, decentralised -mostly paid for by municipal, regional and to a lesser extent central government and one of the best in the world.

There are according to this source 433 ICU beds but they've ramped up the numbers of ICU beds in response to the crisis.

It would seem from what I'm reading that the pressures on their system are mainly in the Stockholm region, but they are managing so far and have set up a field hospital for overflow patients in the South of Stockholm. 337 people are in intensive care there. There was discussion about beds being moved around from one region to where they're needed if it came to it also, but I don't think they've needed to yet and the State Epidemiologist has said they're flattening the curve in Stockholm at least.

They have challenges with not having enough PPE gear, like many other countries and other cities like Malmo will be next to see a surge in cases so we shall see what happens.
The PM explained yesterday the shortage in PPE gear is because after the cold war successive governments reduced funding for emergency readiness systems and equipment.

Folkhälsomyndigheten (Swedish public health authority) COVID-19 site:https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

frillyleaf wrote: »

What are the differences between Sweden and Ireland and why can’t we continue similar to how Sweden is managing Covid19?

I’m not suggesting either is right or wrong. I would just like to know how Sweden can continue as normal and other countries can’t. Thanks ��

They're not continuing as normal. This is a big misconception. Yes primary schools and childcare facilities are still open but the government said this was so that healthcare workers in particular could still work. There is really no such thing as informal childcare arrangements with grandparents looking after grandchildren in Sweden as the childcare system guarantees affordable childcare for all and there are very few stay at home parents. I think the figure I read was over 90% of women work outside the home.
And even if they wanted to many grandparents don't live in the same area or region even as their grandchildren. Telling parents to stay at home and look after their children would collapse the healthcare system. Or at least that was what their PM said.

Anyone who can is working from home same as here. Almost all domestic flights have been cancelled.

Restaurants and cafes are open but only for outdoor service and the tables must be set at the correct distance apart. They're now talking about closing those businesses which do not comply with this rule.

They have brought in social distancing rules. They have stay home advice to the over 70s and families and told not to visit old peoples homes-hot spots for the virus in Sweden and where the deaths are mostly centred on it seems and an area that could still cause the death rate to increase hugely.

Hand hygiene advice is the same as here as is distancing in supermarkets.
People are not travelling or moving around as normal. Journeys outside Stockholm are down between 70 and 90% this Easter.

There are several reasons the Swedish way wouldn't work here IMO. Firstly we don't have the same healthcare resources to deal with a large spike in numbers as they do. Secondly social distancing is the norm there, no joke, so they can sustain that for long periods where we may find that more challenging. Swedes are relatively anti-social at the best of times.

Furthermore Sweden is the fourth largest country in Europe and has a low population density relative to its size, especially in the North. 10 million people.

They have the highest number of single occupancy households in the world. Again that means they have natural social distancing, and so less community transmission.
There's probably other reasons but that's off the top of my head right now.

metricspaces

Greentopia wrote: »

They're not continuing as normal. This is a big misconception.

Darn. More facts. You are ruining the evening for our good old conspiracy theorists and drama queens.

Greentopia

Bit cynical wrote: »

Although they don't have the sever restrictions of other countries it does look like their death rate per million due to the virus is lower than a fair number of other countries, including France, Belgium etc. This may be due to their being a fairly conformist country that obeys guidelines. Although they don't have the same level of legal restrictions, the cities are generally quieter.

Housing may also play a part. It is much more common in Sweden to live in your own small apartment before forming a family than, say, Ireland where flat and house sharing or living in the parental home is common. Room sharing with strangers is common in the inner cities in Ireland.

It is still too early to say which country has the right approach. When this is over, things like the economy will have to be factored in. My worry in Ireland is that we may succeed in suppressing the virus but at some point, restrictions will have to be lifted in order to get some sort of economy that can be taxed to pay for services including medical services, pensions and so on.

I don't think the Swedish model is right for every country but it may prove to be the right model for Sweden when this is all over.

Precisely. This is the most accurate and astute comment I've seen on the thread so far.
As someone who has spent eight years of my life there returning quite regularly to visit and who still keeps up with Swedish news, I would say that's all spot on. Your last point in particular is one I've been saying also. The Swedish model and way of tackling this crisis may not work in any other country except Sweden.

Those who judge it negatively by the standards of their own country whether it's Ireland or wherever, don't have the full picture to be able to assess why Sweden has taken the path it has on the virus and are forming opinions without sufficient relevant knowledge or information of the country.

It does look alarming from the outside and of course there's a risk they may have got it terribly wrong (the situation in the old peoples care homes is very worrying), but somehow I think when the fatalities are counted when this is over there won't be many more per capita than their Nordic neighbours.

normanoffside

bubblypop wrote: »

If you really want to compare Sweden it shouldn't be with Ireland.

Compare with Finland, who are culturally & geographically the same! Although Sweden's population is approx 10 million, and Finland's is only 5.5million.

Finland brought in restrictions in early March, government buildings closed, schools closed, no gatherings of large amounts of people....
Finland have 49 deaths
Sweden have 887 , or thereabouts

Finland is not culturally nor geographically the same as sweden at all.
Finland is not even Scandinavian.