Sweden avoiding lockdown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160530#Comment_119160530

This whole experience has been (and will be in the future, for historians) - a fascinating study in human psychology. Whichever side of the debate you are on, I think it boils down to the classical thought of scepticism vs stoicism. Sceptics are those that argue that there is a better/more balanced way to have done this (voluntary measures, isolate the vulnerable, for example) vs the stoics (who believe that the ends justify the means and that we ought to just put up with it for the utilitarian calculus of greater good).

To my, somewhat libertarian mind, the stoic approach is a totalitarian one because it implies that human beings are simply tools of collective national policy, as opposed to individuals. This is not the norm for a liberal democracy.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160521#Comment_119160521

Its value judgment. Sure. No argument.

But as academic exercise in stats, there a bit of data distortion going on. That before you consider the deliberate under reporting thats going on by some countries.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160490#Comment_119160490

Regardless of subject, if you pick the extreme end of a range of estimates, its unlikely to ever to happen. That's why its a range. Its also an estimate. More so if you leave out the conditions the estimate (prerequisite) that the range is based on.

If you believe the media 100% and don't do your own critical analysis. Then thats a whole different issue. That before you get into tabloid reporting and click bait journalism.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160530#Comment_119160530

Economically, Sweden have done worse than most of their neighbours and Ireland, but economic performance is not going to be slowly down to pandemic measures.

What we can say is that the disastrous herd immunity measures followed by relatively similar measures post vaccination rollout did them no favours economically.

therapist3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161920#Comment_119161920

Apart from the fact no one can show it was a disaster so therefore it wasn't

Sweden is the real winner, it maintained the values of democracy

Every country who locked down has shown itself to be totalitarian, that's how genocides of hutu / tutsi / jews / famine irish happens. Your all knowing government says do this or else

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160554#Comment_119160554

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163717#Comment_119163717

Firstly Ireland is not a totalitarian state , even in our worst lockdown, and secondly if you guys believe that you really should be posting it somewhere else, because it is pure fantasy .

therapist3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163723#Comment_119163723

What you mean like the whole world being under 2/5km house arrest with police stationed on the roads to control your movement's

Not totalitarian at all

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163723#Comment_119163723

You think it's not possible for a democracy to behave as if it was a totalitarian state? Or in a despotic manner? Well, 2020 proved that it can.

Ireland in 2020/21 was an oppressive state that allowed almost zero individual liberty/autonomy. I have friends abroad who say now that Ireland is the land of the lockdown, not the land of the welcome atmosphere. (Recall that I'm not Irish)

That's fact, not fantasy.

It might not have been oppressive to you personally, or even the majority, but then we have tyranny of the majority. If you were not affected then lucky you.

If you think being confined to 5km for months on end, being told who we could meet, where we could go, who was allowed to work, coupled with checkpoints is not totalitarian, then frankly I'm surprised, and concerned.

Do you think that lockdown (of healthy/uninfected people) is a libertarian strategy? Is that where lockdown comes from, a country that prides itself on individual liberty? Nope, it comes from a totalitarian state.

Flinty997

Limited temporary health restrictions are not what defines a totalitarian state.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164025#Comment_119164025

Limited, temporary, sure - we know that now.

But, remember - we didn't know at the time how long they would be in place for. They are over, for now at least.

I am not optimistic about how this state (or certain other EU states) are going to react to future crises.

Government's have now learnt the enormous power that public fear gives to them. Let's hope that fact is not taken advantage of.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164025#Comment_119164025

Correct, but a lot of our restrictions had nothing to do with limiting the virus spread and some increased spread of the virus. Locking up beaches and mountains, funnelling people to indoor gatherings was moronic.

Now, that was down to incompetence rather than totalitarianism, but shows the dangers of too much government power.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164068#Comment_119164068

My first and ultimate major complaint with this was the closure of/denial of access to outdoor areas and zero risk activities. It was unscientific. It was as scientific as the street spraying in China. Denying access to outdoor areas and forcing urban communities together was wrong.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164058#Comment_119164058

I'd suggest 'governments' knew this already.

The restrictions were always going to be limited and temporary for very obvious reasons.

It's such a pity that everything has to be pointed out.

It's crazy how some can twist logic and rewrite history to come to the conclusion that Ireland is a totalitarian state.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164084#Comment_119164084

Didn't say it was, said it acted in that manner. There is a distinction there. Lockdown (of healthy/uninfected people) is a totalitarian strategy copied from a totalitarian state. It's such a pity that I have to point that out.

I actually think it wasn't obvious that the restrictions (all of them) would be temporary, because Covid will be with us for decades, maybe forever now.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164068#Comment_119164068

There are always rules. Even this forum has rules there is no free speech here for example.

Well people are stupid. They had parties of hundreds of people on the beach.

You can't travel to mountains and beaches without travelling. Which invariably means contact with people outside your immediate social circle.

The virus traveled around the country in people. It didn't magic its way around.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164100#Comment_119164100

It's a logical move when you literally don't know what you are dealing with.

Blatently obvious that restrictions of that initial level could not go on for ever.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164136#Comment_119164136

That's why I said ALL restrictions, not just the initial level.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164134#Comment_119164134

People are unable to travel to the mountains/beach alone or with only 'household' members? Without going in a shop, or local (5km) garage for fuel? News to me.

A respected journo wrote a column about Ireland during the lockdowns (https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/irelands-brutal-covid-lockdown)

One of the opening paragraphs 'Ireland in the time of Covid is a totalitarian state.'

Anyway, this is all off thread chatter.

Sweden didn't lockdown, it's world didn't end.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164146#Comment_119164146

What people can or should do and what they actually do is two different things.

We had lockdown the world didn't end.

Unless you died from the virus, then it did.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164197#Comment_119164197

'What people can or should do and what they actually do is two different things.' - this is such an interesting statement and it betrays your pessimism about people and their personal responsibility. If people are told of the risk, and treated like adults - on the whole, they will behave like adults. (there will always be exceptions, of course)

'We had lockdown the world didn't end.' - for some it did in some ways, at least during, as well as after. Think about all the small businesses that now no longer exist. Or those who were unemployed, particularly in the younger generations.

'Unless you died from the virus, then it did.' - people died under lockdown with the virus as well as when we were not under lockdown (granted, numbers are different). As an older person, who knows many older (vulnerable) people - I'd have preferred to live with freedom united with risk as opposed to restrictions with safety. I'd (and they) prefer to spend my last days with people of my choosing, in areas of my choosing - not the states. What happened was that the choice was eliminated (I said this before). Who should decide that? Government officials, or the individual? I know who I think....

Flinty997

It's how societies work. They have rules. If you don't like the rules find a different society. If you choose not to then you've voted with your feet about which society you prefer.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164134#Comment_119164134

We knew very early it spread when too many people were indoors with poor ventilation. That’s how it spread around the country. Closing beaches and mountains obviously increased that type of mixing. It’s a bit disturbing that people still think there was any science or good reasons for closing beaches and mountains.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164359#Comment_119164359

"If you don't like it, get out?" Is that what you are saying?

What you are also saying is that each individual is nothing more than a building block for a given society. That's an incredibly inhumane way to treat humans. Humans are not simply tools for collective national policy, I've said this numerous times.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164378#Comment_119164378

I'm saying that's how a society works.

You're protesting about the rules of a society you've chosen to join.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164369#Comment_119164369

There were super spreader events outside.

Sking, sports events, cyclists stopping for lunch, parties on beaches, horse racing, extended family garden parties, holidays, travel, camping.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164745#Comment_119164745

This is not true and you know it. The science showed that outdoor activities were vastly less risky than indoor activities with poor ventilation. I noticed you tried to sneak a couple of indoor activities into your list to reinforce your point, but it just indicates you don’t believe what you are saying.

jackboy

Sweden did have significant restrictions. Their high death rate was caused by not protecting the elderly and vulnerable in time, same as other countries that had high death rates. We made the same mistake at the start remember.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163717#Comment_119163717

Look at their 2020 deaths data vs. other countries.

Look at their economic performance overall.

Neither are good compared to others.

Sweden got back to average after a successful vaccine rollout and bringing in restrictions.

The 2020 approach won't be followed by other countries (and hindsight is everything but betting on herd immunity for a newly emerged mutagenic virus is very very very stupid).

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164877#Comment_119164877

What indoor activities???

Less risk is not no risk. You've just conceeded that outdoor activities do (and) did spread the virus.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163717#Comment_119163717

I fail to see where you believe Sweden "maintained the values of democracy".

I would not see it as upholding the principles of democracy when a government dictates that the parents of a child infected with a highly transmissible virus during a pandemic must still send their child to school or suffer prosecution and the possibility of their child being removed from their care, as was the case in Sweden.

There was very little democratic about Sweden`s herd immunity strategy up until October 2020 when the local authorities regained the power to make their own health care decisions and forced the government to back them, sideline Tegnell and the FHM, and put an end to the strategy.

Up to that point the Swedish government were very hands off, but by October when from test results it was obvious the strategy was a failure, but with Tegnell still determined to pursue it while in denial of them having a second wave and intent on increasing the numbers at public events, lifting restrictions on care homes and telling the vulnerable it was safe for them to mingle in general society again, the local authorities gun to their heads finally forced them to act.

I don`t see where there was much of anything democratic about the strategy to begin with. It was devised by FHM unelected officials based on the flawed belief of a then private citizen Giesecke, that within a few weeks herd immunity would be achieved. Rather than acting democratically from what I see the Swedish government acted on the contrary until forced too by the local authorities. It wasn`t so much a laissez-faire government response to an epidemic, but more a case of them staying well away from it as long as they could hoping to claim credit if it worked, while having someone to blame if it did not.

Add that to the findings of their Covid Inquiry report, should their be another similar epidemic, I believe safe to say that neither a herd immunity strategy or the government response will be the same as it was to this one.

Don't Chute!

The second paragraph in this article is interesting considering people have suggested the same here a few times. And this is from the much ballyhooed inquiry itself!