protecting the elderly - hasn't really worked all that well

wheresthebeef

wheresthebeef wrote: »

Bear in mind results are taking 7-9 days. So that's actually 99 clusters present a week ago. Today's number is likely a lot higher.
Nursing homes were left as sitting ducks. No recommendation from the HSE to restrict visiting, no access to PPE, no measures put in place to protect staff from becoming asymptomatic transmitters. 4 weeks too late they throw some money at us, too little too late. Money wont save older people from dying.

I agree with much of what you say, but I was just trying to find out the actual reported figures (with all the caveats applying).

Anyway the figure of 99 nursing home clusters was made up by The Journal, quelle surprise. The actual figure reported today was 67. It's still awful and we'll go above it at some stage, but I can't stand irresponsible reporting on this.

wheresthebeef

beolight wrote: »

Well Minister Harris great plan to safeguard Nursing Homes must of put your worries to bed ......

I fear you have hit the nail on head, if the general hospitals are stretched to their limit they are not going to be in a position to divert resources to Nursing Homes

Have they appointed a HSE liaison for you yet? If yes have they made contact?

Has any PPE been provided yet? If yes is the quantity provided sufficient ? Who do you contact to replenish supplies?

We have had contact with the HSE, but only non clinical types. We await the formation of these 'Covid Response Teams' and 'Covid Managers'.

We have had some PPE but not enough. They ask how many suspected cases you have, do some sort of sums on it to decide what you need, then they reduce it down to whatever they can give you and it arrives the next day. It's never enough, and you have no idea what you'll actually get until you open the box.

As I said in previous posts, we saw the evidence coming and implemented all the practices that are now HSE standard days in advance and it wasnt enough. I worry that some members of the public will look at it too simplistically and think "Oh they mustn't have been washing their hands enough, shame on them!"

Kerry25x

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

As for male carers, forget it. Can only go into male clients so straight away only 50% potential work. It's the normal for a male carer to only make 15-20 hours a week

Male carers in nursing homes go in to female residents all the time. The odd resident might object and say they want a female career but in my experience the majority don't mind and are happy to have their needs met by anyone. In the hospital we actually favour male career for their strength when it comes to patient moving and handling and in helping deal with the aggressive patients.

Worked in a nursing home for a summer a few years back while I was a nursing student, pay was €9.65 then. Most of the residents were lovely but the constant penny pinching and crap conditions made it a miserable place to work.

There was two 15 minute breaks (unpaid) in a 12 hour shift, no sick pay and blatant favouritism for the people that had worked there 10+ years and did the bare minimum.

I shudder to think how they would handle the situation if the virus started spreading in there.

millb

wheresthebeef wrote: »

I'll tell you the reason why this is happening. It's called asymptomatic transmission. A person who is not sick, but is able to infect others.

I can only speak from my own experience so others may not have done this.
When this virus came about, we got guidance from the HSE that basically said buy a bit of PPE, increase hand hygiene, provide tissues for residents and if anyone in the nursing home tests positive they'll be cared for in hospital to avoid them transmitting to anyone else. The effect that this had was to lead providers into a belief that they would only need to isolate people for short periods of time. Visiting restrictions were said to be unnecessary and all social activities could continue as normal.
Many nursing homes took a much tougher view on this and implemented extra cleaning, visiting restrictions, reduction in social contacts and purchased additional PPE. We were advised that sick staff should not attend work, so we educated our staff and agreed to pay their full wages to make sure no-one had an incentive to attend whilst feeling unwell. Before social distancing was in for everyone, we asked all our staff to socially distance to reduce their risk of becoming a carrier.
The problem with these strategies is that a sick staff member needs to be able to use a crystal ball to excuse themselves from work 5 days before they become Ill.
The HSE then changed their policy to say that residents with Covid19 would be left in the nursing home unless it was unequivocally clear that intensive care would benefit them (which largely it doesnt for an older person). In an instant, the PPE we had put aside to isolate any cases whilst we awaited for them to be admitted to hospital went from being a 2 week supply to being a 24 hour supply. So began the scramble for PPE at a time when all the suppliers prices had gone up by 800% and were practically out of stock. We were told not to worry that the HSE had warehouses full of stuff and would supply us. The following day we got an email from HSE telling us a surgical mask could be re-used by baking it for 30 minutes at 70 degrees. This didnt work as the limited supply they did give us had plastic straps which melted in the heat of the oven and also who wants to wear a mask that someone else had been using.
We were told that we didnt need to use PPE if residents were well, despite emerging evidence worldwide that masks on staff would prevent asymptomatic transmission from staff to residents by blocking respiratory droplets. We bit the bullet and masked up the staff with the masks we had acquired at 8 times their usual price.
We all rowed in to try to lift residents spirits. Staff went above and beyond to fill the gap left by visiting families, musicians, therapists and activities providers. We washed our hands until they were raw and realised that we needed hand cream as much as we needed hand sanitiser. We sat to the side as we positioned residents in front of video chat screens to talk to their loved ones and hid our own sadness that this was what things had come to. We smiled and gently redirected when residents living with dementia came up to us and hugged us because they couldn't understand or remember to socially distance. We felt our hearts bursting in our chests every time we cared for residents and had the niggling worry of "what if I'm sick and I dont know it and I give it to a resident".
We isolated residents with symptoms of illness as a precaution, despite the fact that the symptoms are so vague that they are also in common with about 50 other conditions that older people suffer from a lot of the time. We checked our own temperatures multiple times a day as well as the residents.
We come home every night trying to avoid our own family members, just in case.
We try to support each other, manage the fear, and prop each other up because even though we are the risk, our absence and the consequences of our absence are unthinkable as we have seen in Spain.
Many of us are now considering moving out of our family homes so we can self isolate to make sure we are "clean" coming to work. That is a deep sacrifice, but one we are willing to make.
At the moment even with priority testing, it is taking 8 days to get swab results. So far they have all been negative, but the not knowing is killer.

What needs to be done -
Testing turnaround needs to dramatically improve for this population
HSE should row back on admission policy and isolate positive cases away from other vulnerable people and do so rapidly
All staff caring for vulnerable people should be masked at all times to reduce asymptomatic transmission in conjunction with hand washing
More comprehensive PPE to protect staff from falling Ill needs to be provided so that staffing levels can be maintained to care for people and reduce the risk of onward transmission
Financial support for staff working
Accomodation so staff can self isolate outside of work and remain Covid-free
Support for nursing homes with additional staff to meet increased demands due to isolation and distancing (it's much harder to care for people when they are all separated)

I dont know what else we can do. We can do all of this and it still might not be enough. We promised to keep these people safe and we will break ourselves trying to do that and it still might not be enough.

good post

Scoondal

On 6 March, Nursing Homes Ireland banned visitors. CMO critisised organisations making their own restrictions without the approval of CMO. Tony Holohan has questions to answer regarding his statements on 6 March.

Idbatterim

Scoondal wrote: »

On 6 March, Nursing Homes Ireland banned visitors. CMO critisised organisations making their own restrictions without the approval of CMO. Tony Holohan has questions to answer regarding his statements on 6 March.

Holohan is above any form of questioning!

Scoondal

On 10 March, according to The Irish Times, Tony Holohan said that visiting retrictions imposed by NHI should be lifted.
Mr. Holohan must be queried about his statements. Thankfully, NHI refused his request.

splinter65

Scoondal wrote: »

On 10 March, according to The Irish Times, Tony Holohan said that visiting retrictions imposed by NHI should be lifted.
Mr. Holohan must be queried about his statements. Thankfully, NHI refused his request.

According to RTÉs Tommy O’Gorman Mr Holohan is the greatest person who has ever lived.

wheresthebeef

So the army arrived without notice today and tested all the residents and about 60% of the staff. Not sure what the plan is when they find out half of us are carriers, but we'll wait and see what scheme the government come up with next.
Also now advising use of PPE for every resident, and at the same time telling to use PPE sparingly as theres a global shortage. We must struggle on.

Scoondal

splinter65 wrote: »

According to RTÉs Tommy O’Gorman Mr Holohan is the greatest person who has ever lived.

I just want Tony Holohan to say that he was wrong, it was an error of judgement and that he is sorry.
But he is a government employed civil servant, so hell will freeze before such a person will ever admit a mistake. No personal responsibility will be accepted for any mistakes made by anyone in important roles in Ireland.

Scoondal

Idbatterim wrote: »

Holohan is above any form of questioning!

Oh, sorry, my mistake.
But you are correct. He was on the Tubridy Show.

RandomViewer

splinter65 wrote: »

According to RTÉs Tommy O’Gorman Mr Holohan is the greatest person who has ever lived.

Tommy Gorman nearly came live on the news gushing about Lizzie Windsor a few weeks ago, it was so cringy. Between him and George "random tangents" Lee you'd worry about the accuracy of the news

CIARAN_BOYLE

Scoondal wrote: »

On 10 March, according to The Irish Times, Tony Holohan said that visiting retrictions imposed by NHI should be lifted.
Mr. Holohan must be queried about his statements. Thankfully, NHI refused his request.

He was asked and answered in one of the press conferences last week.

His response was that they made the reccomendations in a proportionate manner as needs required.

Once the shut down of visitors was introduced it would be introduced long term. By only implementing measures as required it was the aim of the public health team to reduce public fatigue with the measures in place.

Not really sure on that answer myself but it's the answer he gave.

millb

Scoondal wrote: »

I just want Tony Holohan to say that he was wrong, it was an error of judgement and that he is sorry.
But he is a government employed civil servant, so hell will freeze before such a person will ever admit a mistake. No personal responsibility will be accepted for any mistakes made by anyone in important roles in Ireland.

I heard that Leo said today that they got the strategy wrong with the nursing homes.

anewme

Just wondering how many commenting here actually are impacted by having family in a nursing home?

millb

Live now Claire Byrne... owner of NH v interesting

beolight

anewme wrote: »

Just wondering how many commenting here actually are impacted by having family in a nursing home?

Equally impacted are those who may have family members working within a Nursing Home

s7ryf3925pivug

Del Griffith wrote: »

It's this. It's inconceivable that workers in 29 separate facilities just happen to have a positive Corona staff member.

My bet is we all have it, or a huge amount of people anyway, and have no symptoms or very mild symptoms.

This would mean the % death rate and rates needing hospitalisation are far lower than the current figures too.

You might be right. There were a load of people tested for antibodies in California recently, and the number of positive results was much greater than the number of people who had actually been diagnosed.

anewme

beolight wrote: »

Equally impacted are those who may have family members working within a Nursing Home

Absolutely

I've lost my dad to this absolute bastard of a virus. I've been worried for weeks but tried not to panic and just hoped the virus would stay away from his nursing home. They were doing very well until late last week but then got hit badly. For dad he had no symptoms until he became seriously ill, and then he was gone in the space of a few hours. It happened so fast it's hard to get your head around.

maneno

Flying Fox wrote: »

I've lost my dad to this absolute bastard of a virus. I've been worried for weeks but tried not to panic and just hoped the virus would stay away from his nursing home. They were doing very well until late last week but then got hit badly. For dad he had no symptoms until he became seriously ill, and then he was gone in the space of a few hours. It happened so fast it's hard to get your head around.

So sorry for your loss flying fox

Scoondal

anewme wrote: »

Just wondering how many commenting here actually are impacted by having family in a nursing home?

My mother is in a nursing home near Kilcock. Why did CMO Holohan ask for visitor restrictions to be lifted on nursing homes on 9 or 10 March ?
This was a serious mis-judgement at the least.
And no one has asked that question at the news briefings.

Scoondal

My mother's nursing home told us last week that my mother was to be given valium every day. That is what we get when we allow profit making companies treat nursing home care as an oppurtunity to make money. And now they want the state to bail them out. Disgusting.

anewme

Flying Fox wrote: »

I've lost my dad to this absolute bastard of a virus. I've been worried for weeks but tried not to panic and just hoped the virus would stay away from his nursing home. They were doing very well until late last week but then got hit badly. For dad he had no symptoms until he became seriously ill, and then he was gone in the space of a few hours. It happened so fast it's hard to get your head around.

Flying Fox, as someone in the same situation, I was so upset to read this tonight.

Thinking of you and your family.

MadYaker

Considering no country in the world has managed to keep it out of nursing homes can we not consider this inevitable? Am I wrong? Is there any country that managed to do this?

Scoondal

MadYaker wrote: »

Considering no country in the world has managed to keep it out of nursing homes can we not consider this inevitable? Am I wrong? Is there any country that managed to do this?

One thing is certain ... the residents of nursing homes did not bring the disease into nursing homes. The residents are the ones suffering but their aren't going abroad for holidays or going to crowded pubs. They already live in social isolation, for many years.

Kerry25x

Scoondal wrote: »

One thing is certain ... the residents of nursing homes did not bring the disease into nursing homes. The residents are the ones suffering but their aren't going abroad for holidays or going to crowded pubs. They already live in social isolation, for many years.

Most likely staff that are asymptomatic and have no way of knowing that they're passing it on and have had no PPE provided.

The Tetrarch

Both my parents are deceased. One was in a long-stay hospital for three years. The other was in a nursing home for seven years.

I think the daily routine in both would contribute to coronavirus spread.
It is usual to have a couple of community rooms with televisions. They are also used for activities like singing, quizzes, and games.
When the residents get up they are brought to the community room. You could have thirty residents in one room. And visitors would also visit the resident in that room. The residents could spend most of the day there. Perhaps they could spend time in the garden, but moving a few dozen residents about is a major task and the tendency is to keep them in one place.
The same with residents who are smokers - one smoking room.

"protecting the elderly - hasn't really worked all that well"

It's worked out quite well outside of nursing homes..nursing homes are a challenge for all the reasons mentioned so far in this topic.

The Tetrarch

And in my late mother's nursing home all the residents ate meals at the same time together in the dining room, four to a table.