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The Chinese Big Lie

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    #62
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Wibbs wrote: »
    You do know the Chinese government are up to exactly the same thing. Neither of them are to trusted as far as you could throw Trump or Xi. The big difference is Americans and the rest of the world can question Trump's shenanigans a lot more openly than the Chinese can.

    My problem isn't with Trump, the whole US is a facade of democracy, run by an oligarchic and military elite in continuous warfare with the world. Obama was a war criminal.

    And there's plenty of criticism of the Chinese leadership on Chinese social media, the original doctor who was the whistle blower was eulogised on internal social media, and the government criticised. They did try to ban some of the posts, if not quite with the ferocity of a Twitter moderator ferreting out TERFS but close enough, but have latterly succumbed to popular pressure and exonerated Li Wenliang.

    And yet the same social media is not reporting about hospitals still being full. Instead we are subjected to the kind of reports in the yellow press that would have "citation needed" all over the text were it on wikipedia.

    "Some people are saying that the incinerators are full." (Citation needed).

    I note in passing that the kind of poster who doesn't believe China, also doesn't believe Iran, which is not un-coincidently number one on the most hated nation list of rabid neocons. And that is a long long list.

    Nevertheless it's one thing to say that China could be lying, it's another to prove that the they are. I have yet to hear reasonable explanations of why the extreme and relatively timely Wuhan lockdown wouldn't have worked, and if it didnt why we are bothering with a milquetoast version of it.

    The narrative on China immediately changed from "look at crazy totalitarians locking the people up" once it started to work, to 'they must be lying" once the US figures started to exceed the Chinese total, which is also not un-coincidental.


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    #63
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Dr. Bre wrote: »
    Couldn’t believe when Leo thanked the Chinese for the supplies . Like saying thanks to the robber who took robbed your tv and returned it

    Oh, did the Chinese steak our PPE and sell it back. Thats out of order for sure, but citation needed.


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    #64
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    Del Griffith wrote: »
    Did their president tell their people was a hoax?

    The Chinese leadership pretty much did. As well as try to blame the US.


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    #65
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    FVP3 wrote: »

    Nevertheless it's one thing to say that China could be lying, it's another to prove that the they are. I have yet to hear reasonable explanations of why the extreme and relatively timely Wuhan lockdown wouldn't have worked, and if it didnt why we are bothering with a milquetoast version of it.

    The narrative on China immediately changed from "look at crazy totalitarians locking the people up" once it started to work, to 'they must be lying" once the US figures started to exceed the Chinese total, which is also not un-coincidental.

    Of course they said that - if China had said look we have half a million infected people with this new virus and 10 thousand dead we wouldn't have said that.

    The lockdown was on China was on the 23rd Jan - how many deaths are China acknowledging to justify the lockdown?


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    #66
    Downlinz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Ok lets compare Italy and China's reported deaths (worldofmeters)

    Italy had it's first recorded death on the 29th Feb and within 2 weeks it was up to 250 a day.

    This started in China in November and the Chinese lockdown was the 23rd Jan (so much higher infection rates are guaranteed in China). Despite this, their first recorded death was on the 23rd Jan and this death rate has not at any point in the last 3 months been more than 150 per day.

    Yes not at all dubious!!!

    Italy are literally bordering a country with almost the same number of cases as China and triple the survival rate (Germany). Are they lying too?
    The figures vary wildly across the globe based on the level of testing, there's no reason to highlight China when their numbers are broadly in line with the ranges elsewhere.

    It's likely a 0.5% - 1% death rate everywhere and the discrepancy is from countries like Italy and Spain who under-tested.


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    #67
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,238 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Except the evidence for China lying is nonsense. Why wouldn't the lockdown in China work? If the cases in China were not falling where would any lockdown work and why are we doing lockdowns? Wuhan was locked down on Thursday, 23 January.

    The supposed evidence is that they "closed the chinemas again". That's exactly what you would do if the cases rose, which they have slightly.

    I am sure the Chinese haven't tested everybody, but who has?

    It's quite clear that China is lying. Like what they are saying right now is completely absurd, unbelievable and ridiculous - that almost all new Chinese cases are imported from abroad. You don't have to be an epidemiologist to know that is BS

    It feels like they are getting ready to put a narrative in place - when the second wave comes it's because dirty foreigners imported it into China


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    #68
    LessOutragePlz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    They could have sold them elsewhere

    The point still stands excuse my crude analogy that's like thanking someone that made your water taste sh1tty because they helped make it not taste sh1tty when it was their fault to begin with. I think we'd all rather not have had sh1tty tasting water in the first place!


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    #69
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Downlinz wrote: »
    Italy are literally bordering a country with almost the same number of cases as China and triple the survival rate (Germany). Are they lying too?
    The figures vary wildly across the globe based on the level of testing, there's no reason to highlight China when their numbers are broadly in line with the ranges elsewhere.

    It's likely a 0.5% - 1% death rate everywhere and the discrepancy is from countries like Italy and Spain who under-tested.

    This originated in China in November. The first tests were available at the end of Jan. On that basis how were China so great at testing this virus between November and January. Or was it that the virus did not spread until it could be detected.

    Your argument seems to be trust China because Germany is not (yet) seeing the same rates as Italy. Well today Germany had 150 deaths which is the max China ever recorded. If it death rate continues to rise than I guess you need to find another country to justify your blind faith in the CCP.


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    #70
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    It's quite clear that China is lying. Like what they are saying right now is completely absurd, unbelievable and ridiculous - that almost all new Chinese cases are imported from abroad. You don't have to be an epidemiologist to know that is BS

    It feels like they are getting ready to put a narrative in place - when the second wave comes it's because dirty foreigners imported it into China

    It's not clear at all that they are lying except to people who have inherent pro US biases. They locked up 60 million people or so for a month or more, most were forced into their houses, they have tracking apps and so on. Again, why wouldn't that work. The virus dies out when humans fight it off.

    And why did the narrative change just recently? Just the day in fact the US started to see higher figures than China.

    China saying that most recent cases are travellers into the country ( all chinese citizens as it happens since that is all they allow home) in no more a "narrative" than saying that chinese visitors brought the virus to Italy which was true then.


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    #71
    Dr. Bre
    Registered Users Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    This originated in China in November. The first tests were available at the end of Jan. On that basis how were China so great at testing this virus between November and January. Or was it that the virus did not spread until it could be detected.

    Your argument seems to be trust China because Germany is not (yet) seeing the same rates as Italy. Well today Germany had 150 deaths which is the max China ever recorded. If it death rate continues to rise than I guess you need to find another country to justify your blind faith in the CCP.

    If it started in November why did it not spread like wildfire in China ? Shanghai Beijing not huge amount of cases considering the population


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    #72
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    This originated in China in November. The first tests were available at the end of Jan. On that basis how were China so great at testing this virus between November and January. Or was it that the virus did not spread until it could be detected.

    Your argument seems to be trust China because Germany is not (yet) seeing the same rates as Italy. Well today Germany had 150 deaths which is the max China ever recorded. If it death rate continues to rise than I guess you need to find another country to justify your blind faith in the CCP.

    Tell me why the lockdown that they have done in China wouldn't work, and as a follow up question, since you think it doesn't work and China is in fact riddled with the virus despite locking people up and tracking them for 2 months now, why are we bothering at all?

    I am pretty sure that China is missing some cases and its tests are, as everywhere else, a fraction of the total but it didnt matter because regardless of who has the virus if you lock people up for 2 months, it's going to slow down or end the spread.


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    #73
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Dr. Bre wrote: »
    If it started in November why did it not spread like wildfire in China ? Shanghai Beijing not huge amount of cases considering the population

    It didnt start in November, probably mid Dec. In fact the Chinese isolated it to the market around that time, and informed the WHO in Dec 31.

    Are you now saying that China is lying about cases outside Hubei?


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    #74
    Mullaghteelin
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Mullaghteelin


    FVP3 wrote: »
    You people are quite deranged. A non political organisation that is head quartered in Geneva is apparently controlled by China merely because it refuses to bow down to US/UK propaganda on the number cases in China. There's a reason why the US has set its propaganda dogs on the attack - once US numbers climbed above the Chinese numbers it was a huge embarrassment and so the numbers were disputed immediately, mostly based on an argument to incredulity or neo-mccarthyism.

    Your idealism about the neutrality of the Who is very 1960s. Its based in Geneva? So what!
    That's irrelevant.
    China pushed strongly for Tedros Adanom to become president of the WHO, and he certainly has behaved like he is bought and paid for by China. Google is your friend.


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    #75
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Dr. Bre wrote: »
    If it started in November why did it not spread like wildfire in China ? Shanghai Beijing not huge amount of cases considering the population

    The 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic first manifested as a cluster of mysterious, suspected pneumonia cases in Wuhan, the capital of Hubei Province, China. A Wuhan hospital notified the local center for disease control and prevention (CDC) and health commissions on 27 December 2019.

    If you don't believe this started in November then there is little point wasting my time with the second part of question.


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    #76
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,238 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    FVP3 wrote: »
    It's not clear at all that they are lying except to people who have inherent pro US biases. They locked up 60 million people or so for a month or more, most were forced into their houses, they have tracking apps and so on. Again, why wouldn't that work. The virus dies out when humans fight it off.

    And why did the narrative change just recently? Just the day in fact the US started to see higher figures than China.

    China saying that most recent cases are travellers into the country ( all chinese citizens as it happens since that is all they allow home) in no more a "narrative" than saying that chinese visitors brought the virus to Italy which was true then.

    Why am I saying it's not possible that their numbers are true? All simulations point to social distancing flattening the curve and indeed can stamp out an infection, but it needs to be absolutely perfect. People could still go out to get necessities, so social distancing wasn't perfect in China.

    If it's not perfect, once controls are lifted, you will get a second wave. We are seeing the ground work in China for the country to blame other countries for reimporting it back.

    This whole crisis is entirely their fault. Wet markets are open again, ready to introduce yet another zoonotic disease into the human population. No real effort on behalf of the Chinese to stamp this out.


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    #77
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    What about South Korea? They have largely controlled the virus with less invasive technology and authoritarians lockups than China. What about Singapore? Incredibly low cases, but a fairly authoritarian ( if democratic) regime that can also control their population fairly robustly.

    Are they lying? Are the deaths in these countries actually 40 times greater than claimed, or is it just the enemies of the US we are expected to believe are engaged in massive coverups?


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    #78
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Tell me why the lockdown that they have done in China wouldn't work, and as a follow up question, since you think it doesn't work and China is in fact riddled with the virus despite locking people up and tracking them for 2 months now, why are we bothering at all?

    I am pretty sure that China is missing some cases and its tests are, as everywhere else, a fraction of the total but it didnt matter because regardless of who has the virus if you lock people up for 2 months, it's going to slow down or end the spread.

    I didn't say that the lockdown didn't work - where did I say that.

    I am saying that by the time the lockdown started in China, the scale of the virus would be much much much higher than in Italy. On that basis their quoted mortality rates are lies.


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    #79
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Mullaghteelin wrote: »
    Your idealism about the neutrality of the Who is very 1960s. Its based in Geneva? So what!
    That's irrelevant.
    China pushed strongly for Tedros Adanom to become president of the WHO, and he certainly has behaved like he is bought and paid for by China. Google is your friend.

    Google is my friend isn't much of an answer. I could no doubt google and find whatever massively controlled US centric information you are reading but that will have limited effect on me. I also didn't believe that Iraq was sourcing yellow cake from Niger back in the day although the AEI ( from the OP's post) was definitely on board with that.

    So google the links and make your case ( not just a link dump).


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    #80
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    FVP3 wrote: »
    It didnt start in November, probably mid Dec. In fact the Chinese isolated it to the market around that time, and informed the WHO in Dec 31.

    Are you now saying that China is lying about cases outside Hubei?

    China reported a cluster of Covid on 27th Dec. In the West it takes roughly 3 weeks from contracting the virus to pneumonia. So it started in November.


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    #81
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    I didn't say that the lockdown didn't work - where did I say that.

    I am saying that by the time the lockdown started in China, the scale of the virus would be much much much higher than in Italy. On that basis their quoted mortality rates are lies.

    Why would it be. Your claim that it started in November is unfounded. Then they started reporting exponential increases in cases in Jan and February which fell off during the lockdown.

    The claim is that the death rates are being manipulated now not in the past, at any rate.


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    #82
    sparkle109
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭sparkle109


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I know two people in China, not excessively far from Wuhan and both within the quarantine zone. Both are straight up saying it's worse than China was admitting to.

    Let's also not forget that China has a long, long history of telling some big old lies to avoid looking bad.

    How much worse do they think?


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    #83
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    China reported a cluster of Covid on 27th Dec. In the West it takes roughly 3 weeks from contracting the virus to pneumonia. So it started in November.

    No it doesnt.

    Published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, the findings suggest that, on average, it takes just over five days for symptoms of Covid-19 to develop.

    The study also found that 97 per cent of all people who get the virus will develop symptoms within 11 days from the time when they were first infected.

    Average = 5 days.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus-symptoms-how-long-it-can-take-coronavirus-symptoms-develop-and-what-they-are-2446853


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    #84
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    sparkle109 wrote: »
    How much worse do they think?

    Its proportional to how much America hates you. 40 times.


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    #85
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msrqE87yTRs


    more here


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    #86
    skellig_rocks
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭skellig_rocks


    FVP3 wrote: »
    It didnt start in November, probably mid Dec. In fact the Chinese isolated it to the market around that time, and informed the WHO in Dec 31.

    Are you now saying that China is lying about cases outside Hubei?

    https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3074991/coronavirus-chinas-first-confirmed-covid-19-case-traced-back

    Coronavirus: China’s first confirmed Covid-19 case traced back to November 17 - South China Morning Post - A pro China newspaper


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    #87
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭threeball


    https://www.facebook.com/rohan.wahal.710/videos/216409146236705/

    Interesting take from someone other than the US or British.


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    #88
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    A lot of issues are being conflated I think.

    While I completely agree with sentiments like these
    Wibbs wrote: »
    You do know the Chinese government are up to exactly the same thing. Neither of them are to trusted as far as you could throw Trump or Xi. The big difference is Americans and the rest of the world can question Trump's shenanigans a lot more openly than the Chinese can.
    Especially considering how the CCP treated the doctor that initially blew the whistle.

    But the numbers the chinese have submitted show the same growth rate as other countries. Except for one anomaly where they started using different testing everything looks identical to other countires. What numbers exactly are they fudging? What is the chinese big lie in this case? As another posted pointed out they have been in complete locked down for much longer than us, why would the lockdown not be working? They are also wearing masks.

    The Chinese media/govenment mouthpiece are blaming foreigners returning on new cases arising. I don't think it's helpful that this is turning into a blame game considering pandemics like this work in waves.


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    #89
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    China reported a cluster of Covid on 27th Dec. In the West it takes roughly 3 weeks from contracting the virus to pneumonia. So it started in November.

    Have you got a source on this please? I've read that you could be hospitalized in week 2, and that deaths can range from week 2-6.


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    #90
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    The U.S.A are at least not lying. No, worse. They have seemingly chosen to omit the truth where it suits them to do so.
    Way back when, when the provincial CCP officials forced a cover up we can now say that they were unaware of the full ramifications of their actions. Who was to know right?
    More than three months on you would expect everyone including the dog on the street to know the full scale of what we face and to know the necessary precautions to take. Even a billion poor souls in third world India are aware of social distancing measures, though not always able to practice them. At least they have been given a chance! That is seemingly not the case in the states where it looks to be every man for himself in NYC's most disadvantaged areas.

    https://www.newyorker.com/video/watch/the-ticking-time-bomb-of-the-coronavirus-in-new-york-city-public-housing


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    #91
    NSAman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭NSAman


    auspicious wrote: »
    The U.S.A are at least not lying. No, worse. They have seemingly chosen to omit the truth where it suits them to do so.
    Way back when, when the provincial CCP officials forced a cover up we can now say that they were unaware of the full ramifications of their actions. Who was to know right?
    More than three months on you would expect everyone including the dog on the street to know the full scale of what we face and to know the necessary precautions to take. Even a billion poor souls in third world India are aware of social distancing measures, though not always able to practice them. At least they have been given a chance! That is seemingly not the case in the states where it looks to be every man for himself in NYC's most disadvantaged areas.

    https://www.newyorker.com/video/watch/the-ticking-time-bomb-of-the-coronavirus-in-new-york-city-public-housing

    True. America and its population are undereducated and totally ill-informed about this pandemic. The lack of testing (which is evident everywhere) is astounding. The lack of information given to COVID19 infected people is stupifying. The level of ignorance and lack of procedures for hospital staff is extremely worrying (Staff being told to go back to work when they feel 95% well.. i kid you not)

    Despite TV and radio having averts the actual facts are rarely discussed anywhere except on drama filled crap TV programs which bore the Crap out of you.

    I always knew this was coming. The fact that it is here and still some morons don’t understand or take the time to educate themselves is testament to a population that is not the brightest (in the main).


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