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The Chinese Big Lie

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24567…65

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Marsden35 wrote: »

    But I'm sure your CCP pay cheque is on the way for your valiant defence of them.

    You're clearly just anti-china. I have no interest in debating something with someone who is biased.


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    #33
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    It's irrelevant what the Chinese numbers were.

    The US and UK are now trying to pass the blame for their horrible handling of situation between January and mid March.

    No the Chinese numbers are not correct but neither are the Italian numbers according to Italian officals. The UK and US still had 2 months to prepare for the worst and they spent that time sprouting bs like 'Democratic hoax', 'its just the flu bro' and herd immunity.

    Chinese used every resource available to beat back the disease (there are loads of videos on YouTube showing the heaven and earth they moved) . We in the west think closing school and hairdressers thinking that will have an effect...


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    #34
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,520 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    It's irrelevant what the Chinese numbers were.

    The US and UK are now trying to pass the blame for their horrible handling of situation between January and mid March.

    No the Chinese numbers are not correct but neither are the Italian numbers according to Italian officals. The UK and US still had 2 months to prepare for the worst and they spent that time sprouting bs like 'Democratic hoax', 'its just the flu bro' and herd immunity.

    Chinese used every resource available to beat back the disease (there are loads of videos on YouTube showing the heaven and earth they moved) . We in the west think closing school and hairdressers thinking that will have an effect...

    Spot on.
    World politics is as much about making the other guy look worse or distracting from your own f-up by making shiit up about others.


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    #35
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,281 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    It's irrelevant what the Chinese numbers were.

    The US and UK are now trying to pass the blame for their horrible handling of situation between January and mid March.

    No the Chinese numbers are not correct but neither are the Italian numbers according to Italian officals. The UK and US still had 2 months to prepare for the worst and they spent that time sprouting bs like 'Democratic hoax', 'its just the flu bro' and herd immunity.

    Chinese used every resource available to beat back the disease (there are loads of videos on YouTube showing the heaven and earth they moved) . We in the west think closing school and hairdressers thinking that will have an effect...

    I think you're right in what your seeing. Suppose that's the difference of a population living under an authoritarian regime and a western democracy. But hopefully closing schools early, shutting pubs, social distancing, etc, can make a difference that stops this virus from turning us into the next Italy or Spain.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #36
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    banie01 wrote: »
    I was until recently employed in Telecoms at a fairly high level mainly in Regulatory and Compliance area.

    In light of that particular industry experience, articles like this make very interesting reading
    https://www.lightreading.com/asia/china-operators-shed-subscribers-in-saturated-mobile-market/d/d-id/757737

    Losing subscribers is par for the course in a saturated market.
    That mainly results in what's known in the industry as churn.
    Subscribers migrate from one provider to another, total market penetration remains fairly constant.

    Numbers in a saturated market do not just drop tho.
    Where did the subscribers go?
    It would be a very interesting thought experiment to see what people think happened those numbers.

    Multiple subscribers consolidating all their subs?
    Subs being canx?
    Subscribers no longer taking service due to death?
    Subscribers no longer taking service due to some massive event or intervention?

    In a Western market context, this makes zero sense.
    In a market where every phone is tied to a state issued ID?
    It's even more perplexing, IMO.

    Chinese phones often have 2 or even 3 Sims. So I assume is common over there to have 2 or 3 Sims. The assumption being if people aren't working and not traveling to the region's or switched to 5g on a better deal they might have conciliated their costs while in lock down. Who knows. I don't believe the Chinese or the us propaganda either.

    But when I see public transport here empty I don't assume the worst either.


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    #37
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,520 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    I think you're right in what your seeing. Suppose that's the difference of a population living under an authoritarian regime and a western democracy. But hopefully closing schools early, shutting pubs, social distancing, etc, can make a difference that stops this virus from turning us into the next Italy or Spain.

    Imagine if Italy had the population of China. They essentially did nothing until a 1000 people were dead.

    There is also lots of talk among medial personnel that the virus was in Italy back in December and they didn’t recognise it. The worst affected area was seeing unusual pneumonia deaths in December and chalked it up to a “bad flu”.


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    #38
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,608 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    I found this Australian short documentary about how China tried to cover up quite revealing :-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEQcvcyzQGE

    When this whole mess quietens down a little, China and WHO have serious questions to answer, the carnage this has cause to nearly every society, and could have been avoided if people had acted properly and done ther job correctly.


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    #39
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,165 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Ramona Full Tuber wrote: »
    Big shock, intelligence services of a country who is having a trade war with China releases negative info. The same service who wrongly declared Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

    You do know a stopped clock is right twice a day.

    Oh and those same intelligence services do manage to get a lot of stuff right.
    That would be one of the reasons the world has managed to stop so many would be terrorist attacks over the last number of years.

    The reason this is being pushed right now is to try make US and British administrations look somewhat capable.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    The Chinese aren't responsible for the virus. It originated there, but it wasn't their fault.

    Bullshyte, yes they are fooking responsible.


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    #40
    fiveleavesleft
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭fiveleavesleft


    thebaz wrote: »
    I found this Australian short documentary about how China tried to cover up quite revealing :-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEQcvcyzQGE

    When this whole mess quietens down a little, China and WHO have serious questions to answer, the carnage this has cause to nearly every society, and could have been avoided if people had acted properly and done ther job correctly.

    I'd be wary of that programme. It has an agenda which is fine but they get so much stuff wrong, it twists a lot of stuff also & what's the deal with the missing doctor? she's been on her social media in recent days & is supposed to be livestreaming tomorrow. Is she missing?

    Good Trump impersonation though:D


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    #41
    maestroamado
    Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    _Brian wrote: »
    For the majority, China is a third world country. Only a tiny % of the population have a western style lifestyle.


    This is partly our fault. If our Governments applied the same rules as there is being suggested for Brexit they would have reasonable life conditions or we would not be doing business.
    The Western lifestyle you mention are for us greedy wealthy corporate people.
    There is a change coming... China will look after only China as we only care about cheap stuff.... consumerism thats us...


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    #42
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,520 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    maestroamado wrote: »
    This is partly our fault. If our Governments applied the same rules as there is being suggested for Brexit they would have reasonable life conditions or we would not be doing business.
    The Western lifestyle you mention are for us greedy wealthy corporate people.
    There is a change coming... China will look after only China as we only care about cheap stuff.... consumerism thats us...

    I don’t thinking’s our fault as such. If a different system were in place in China perhaps more people would share in the wealth, have free education and health, but that’s not the way it works.
    I think China have worked hard to make themselves indispensable to the west. They make all our products from cheap tat to high end. They have countries like the US in hock with debt. Heck they convinced the U.K. to let them build major infrastructure projects now.

    I don’t see us playing hard ball with them any time soon. It will be hand wringing, letter writing and recommendations while striking trade deals to jumpstart western economies after this recession.

    Governments would be wise to start building systems to break reliance on China for everything, all your eggs in one basket leaves you depending on whomever carries the basket.


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    #43
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Marsden35 wrote: »
    .

    China has lied every single step of the way and is now using its massive propaganda apparatus to not only appear like the saviours, but to make money from the disaster they lied about. You'll easily spot the CCP agents on forums like this and on Twitter.

    And I tell you something, the CCP doesn't feel one iota of guilt, remorse or shame.

    Mass casualties to the CCP are water off a duck's back. Bearing in mind Chinese rulers have murdered untold millions without blinking an eye.

    Power, dominance and preserving the ruling system are all that matter to the CCP. At any cost.

    lol at the CCP propaganda service. The US has the world's biggest propaganda arm and the OP's post is from the AEI, a rabid neo con venture, full of war mongers.

    That organisation was one of the major supporters of the Iraq war and every single subsequent genocidal war proposed by the yanks, killing millions in the middle east alone.


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    #44
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Has it really come down to a pissing contest between which of two countries, both built on absolutely -massive- propaganda machines are the worst for pushing propaganda?

    Believe it or not, it's more than possible that China has been lying (obviously) and that Trump has not handled this well and actively denied it being a thing (obviously).


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    #45
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    Sure no one except its international mouthpiece (WHO) believes them

    You people are quite deranged. A non political organisation that is head quartered in Geneva is apparently controlled by China merely because it refuses to bow down to US/UK propaganda on the number cases in China. There's a reason why the US has set its propaganda dogs on the attack - once US numbers climbed above the Chinese numbers it was a huge embarrassment and so the numbers were disputed immediately, mostly based on an argument to incredulity or neo-mccarthyism.


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    #46
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Has it really come down to a pissing contest between which of two countries, both built on absolutely -massive- propaganda machines are the worst for pushing propaganda?

    Believe it or not, it's more than possible that China has been lying (obviously) and that Trump has not handled this well and actively denied it being a thing (obviously).

    Except the evidence for China lying is nonsense. Why wouldn't the lockdown in China work? If the cases in China were not falling where would any lockdown work and why are we doing lockdowns? Wuhan was locked down on Thursday, 23 January.

    The supposed evidence is that they "closed the chinemas again". That's exactly what you would do if the cases rose, which they have slightly.

    I am sure the Chinese haven't tested everybody, but who has?


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    #47
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Like i said weeks ago now when all this is said and done China is going to be sent back to the dark ages by the world community lead by the US. They are going to be really sorry they suppressed what was really going on in the early days of this outbreak.


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    #48
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Except the evidence for China lying is nonsense. Why wouldn't the lockdown in China work? If the cases in China were not falling where would any lockdown work and why are we doing lockdowns? Wuhan was locked down on Thursday, 23 January.

    The supposed evidence is that they "closed the chinemas again". That's exactly what you would do if the cases rose, which they have slightly.

    I am sure the Chinese haven't tested everybody, but who has?

    I know two people in China, not excessively far from Wuhan and both within the quarantine zone. Both are straight up saying it's worse than China was admitting to.

    Let's also not forget that China has a long, long history of telling some big old lies to avoid looking bad.


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    #49
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    Like i said weeks ago now when all this is said and done China is going to be sent back to the dark ages by the world community lead by the US. They are going to be really sorry they suppressed what was really going on in the early days of this outbreak.

    There's no hope of that. China isn't another few million people whose economy the US genocidalists can bully or bomb, like Iran, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Vietnam, or Cambodia, or Honduras, or Iraq, or Libya, or Syria, or even Russia. And I am sure I have missed out dozens there.

    It's the world's second largest economy and sending it back to the "dark ages" would send the world economy back to the dark ages, not least because China owns so much US debt.


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    #50
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    That said it was a huge mistake for the West to concentrate so much manufacturing power in China, but that itself was driven by American dominated ideologies like neoliberalism and globalisation.

    The capitalists wanted cheap labour and now that the chinese are competing on the world market by actually making their own devices ( smartphones etc) the US is crying foul.


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    #51
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I know two people in China, not excessively far from Wuhan and both within the quarantine zone. Both are straight up saying it's worse than China was admitting to.

    Let's also not forget that China has a long, long history of telling some big old lies to avoid looking bad.

    I'll take that anecdote not all that seriously.

    Can someone please explain why the severe measures taken by China wouldn't work? And how can they hide all this? Remember the hospitals they built? They are lying empty now.

    China may be authoritarian but if these hospitals were full some kind of information would get out. Plenty of smart phones out there.


    What is happening here is typical disinformation campaign, and a pretty weak one, even by the standards of the US intelligence outlets.


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    #52
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    FVP3 wrote: »
    What is happening here is typical disinformation campaign, and a pretty weak one, even by the standards of the US intelligence outlets.
    You do know the Chinese government are up to exactly the same thing. Neither of them are to trusted as far as you could throw Trump or Xi. The big difference is Americans and the rest of the world can question Trump's shenanigans a lot more openly than the Chinese can.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #53
    Downlinz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    Every country has different testing and reporting criteria and many of them have fudged the numbers one way or another to make their situation look less grave for various reputation reasons. China's death rate isn't out of line with other Asian countries with a strong health system and isn't even the most impressive (South Korea is) so I don't see any valid reason to single them out for their numbers.

    The recent focusing on China "lying" seems mainly driven from the republican base in the US as things get particularly bad over there to cover up for their own president's shortcomings in handling the situation. It's no surprise to see other countries who mismanaged the response like the UK also be tempted into any feelings of anger or blame towards China instead of themselves.


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    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Given the numbers its killing and way its spreading

    You dont have to be a member of mensa to come to conclusion china is lying and tbh given its taken so long to slow down in italy,

    Id seriously question the science behind the 14day quarantine,



    The real qs,unlikely ever to be answered is,exactly how many died in china


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    #55
    MoashoaM
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭MoashoaM


    How the US and UK have handled the pandemic is a shambles. The deflections and blame games are pathetic.

    As for China, there is nothing. They spend no time reflecting on their treatment of wild life or human life. The smuggling continues, the cages, faeces and other fluids and horrifying handling of creatures, foreign, endangered or common, is appalling. The Chinese do manipulate numbers. The same as the USSR did. A culture of "the state is great".


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Downlinz wrote: »
    Every country has different testing and reporting criteria and many of them have fudged the numbers one way or another to make their situation look less grave for various reputation reasons. China's death rate isn't out of line with other Asian countries with a strong health system and isn't even the most impressive (South Korea is) so I don't see any valid reason to single them out for their numbers.

    The recent focusing on China "lying" seems mainly driven from the republican base in the US as things get particularly bad over there to cover up for their own president's shortcomings in handling the situation. It's no surprise to see other countries who mismanaged the response like the UK also be tempted into any feelings of anger or blame towards China instead of themselves.

    China are claiming circa 3K deaths,they are expecting that many in northern ireland


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    #57
    Downlinz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    Deleted User wrote: »
    China are claiming circa 3K deaths,they are expecting that many in northern ireland

    South Korea are claiming 165, Philippines 96 and Singapore just 3. Quick reactions and effective health services are the reason, it's not a conspiracy.

    Northern Ireland still had their schools open on March 18th, when 3000 Italians had already died to the virus. The mind boggles at the UK response time and they'll unfortunately suffer for that with a high death rate.


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    #58
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Downlinz wrote: »
    Every country has different testing and reporting criteria and many of them have fudged the numbers one way or another to make their situation look less grave for various reputation reasons. China's death rate isn't out of line with other Asian countries with a strong health system and isn't even the most impressive (South Korea is) so I don't see any valid reason to single them out for their numbers.

    The recent focusing on China "lying" seems mainly driven from the republican base in the US as things get particularly bad over there to cover up for their own president's shortcomings in handling the situation. It's no surprise to see other countries who mismanaged the response like the UK also be tempted into any feelings of anger or blame towards China instead of themselves.

    Ok lets compare Italy and China's reported deaths (worldofmeters)

    Italy had it's first recorded death on the 29th Feb and within 2 weeks it was up to 250 a day.

    This started in China in November and the Chinese lockdown was the 23rd Jan (so much higher infection rates are guaranteed in China). Despite this, their first recorded death was on the 23rd Jan and this death rate has not at any point in the last 3 months been more than 150 per day.

    Yes not at all dubious!!!


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    #59
    Dr. Bre
    Registered Users Posts: 7,582 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    Couldn’t believe when Leo thanked the Chinese for the supplies . Like saying thanks to the robber who took robbed your tv and returned it


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    #60
    Del Griffith
    Registered Users Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Del Griffith


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    Like i said weeks ago now when all this is said and done China is going to be sent back to the dark ages by the world community lead by the US. They are going to be really sorry they suppressed what was really going on in the early days of this outbreak.

    Did their president tell their people was a hoax?


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    #61
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Dr. Bre wrote: »
    Couldn’t believe when Leo thanked the Chinese for the supplies . Like saying thanks to the robber who took robbed your tv and returned it

    They could have sold them elsewhere


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