Masks

Wibbs

Yes: other

McGiver wrote: »

I stand corrected but I knew they mandated masks. Even this would be a victory if implemented here.

+1 M. I'm certainly not suggesting folks walking, or jogging in a park keeping their distance should be forced to wear masks. If they want to work away, and maybe in particularly vulnerable people where it might be a little prudent.

I'm thinking of enclosed public spaces and those where social distancing is much harder to comply with, even with the best will in the world; shops, public transport(inc taxis), public buildings and work spaces, like offices and construction sites.

You don't need peer reviewed studies to know they work, Paddy. We don't sweat Covid-19. It comes our of our mouths. Test it yourself with a lighter. Blow at it with anything covering your mouth and see the difference. I just tried and with my cheap non-N95 mask, I can't blow it out from three inches away. I can't even make it flicker.

Some of the virus gets through I'm sure but it isn't going to go as far. It just isn't and you have to a bit of a moron to believe that the lighter doesn't flicker but the virus is magically flying as far as it would have, as if it were made from neutrinos.

When I was sick in December, I wore one because I was coughing and didn't want to spread it. The assumption was not that I was healthy and trying to protect myself, it was that I was sick and trying to protect others. The West can barely comprehend the that so when people heard they weren't as effective at stopping them getting it, they were deemed to be pointless.

Arrival

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEG_sQrXtzE

Great little video here, includes a small segment about masks as well

Rjd2

Wibbs wrote: »

+1 M. I'm certainly not suggesting folks walking, or jogging in a park keeping their distance should be forced to wear masks. If they want to work away, and maybe in particularly vulnerable people where it might be a little prudent.

I'm thinking of enclosed public spaces and those where social distancing is much harder to comply with, even with the best will in the world; shops, public transport(inc taxis), public buildings and work spaces, like offices and construction sites.

I think no matter how well meaning the lads are, social distancing will be near impossible on building sites which is concerning as their is no vaccine around the corner and it employs a lot of people who probably can't afford to sit at home for 12 months. Masks will have to be mandatory there for sure.

Taxis and public transport also social distancing is going to get harder once we start loosening restrictions.

I think offices is the only place you can justify no masks, social distancing can be implemented and most people aren't hanging around in supermarkets, in and out asap.

Wibbs

Yes: other

Rjd2 wrote: »

I think offices is the only place you can justify no masks, social distancing can be implemented and most people aren't hanging around in supermarkets, in and out asap.

True though I'd mandate for masks with people who visit offices and homes. People like IT techies, delivery, plumbers, electricians and the like. One delivery guy who was a "superspreader" could infect a load of offices and homes in a fairly short time.

s7ryf3925pivug

Yes: other

The proper fit tests use taste not smell to detect leakage, so I take it that smell doesn't mean much. I suppose high end hepa filters don't filter smell so that makes sense. Charcoal filters are what filter smell.

In the absence of a proper fit test, how are people trying to check the fit? I had a definite leak today as I could hear a whistle during inhalation when I went somewhere quiet enough. The same mask fits ok when I place it differently on my face - down under my chin instead of kinda on it - though it was in fact around my nose that was leaking.

Feeling it inflate and deflate slightly I guess is a good indicator. O viously feeling air flow around the edge is a give-away.

I suppose there's some logic in putting it on at home or in your car so it's easier to try to get the fit right. Though it seems pointless per se and wears it out unnecessarily, and risks exposi g it to rain.

paddy19

No: I don't care enough

Wibbs wrote: »

At this stage I think you're either just being wilfully obtuse, taking the piss, or utterly resistant to any argument and have just made up your mind and the lady's not for turning.

This thread is chock full of links to peer reviewed studies. A couple of pages back I gave you links, I also quoted the opinion of a HSE consultant doctor based on his knowledge on this matter which I can 100% guarantee is so far above yours you'd require the services of the Hubble telescope to view them.

Firing insults at me hardly helps your case.

I don't claim to be an expert.

Should we make everybody in the country wear a mask on the opinion of a HSE doctor no matter how eminent he is?

Eminent doctors have claimed many things in the past which have been proved wrong with better science.

In many polluted cities people have been wearing masks for years to try to protect themselves against pollution, so wearing masks is not an issue in many cultures.

It's a massive change for us.

I am genuinely willing to be turned, as you put it, by the science.

5 peer reviewed studies, not out of China where fear of upsetting the central government got us all into this mess.

Wibbs

Yes: other

Well I'm still waiting for an answer to this: And yet again, for what must be the third fourth time now, I ask you how are masks protective in clinical settings and for people with an infection and those living with them, but the same masks magically lose this protective ability in a shop, or work space? Can you answer that, or do you believe they're not protective in clinical settings(though that would require insanity to believe that), or will you continue to ignore the evidence you claim you have to see to believe?

Should we make everybody in the country wear a mask on the opinion of a HSE doctor no matter how eminent he is?

Well he knows the science behind their efficacy in clinical settings and doesn't see how they appear to magically lose this efficacy outside them. The HSE have already stated that you should wear one if you're sick or living with a sick person, so clearly they're protective and reduce risk, or are they wrong too? Problem being many Covid19 sufferers are shedding large amounts of virus before they become symptomatic.

In many polluted cities people have been wearing masks for years to try to protect themselves against pollution, so wearing masks is not an issue in many cultures.

It's a massive change for us.

Here's the rub. It seems it's far more to do with personal cultural resistance than risk reduction. OK, outside of China, look at the countries, including ones in Europe, with the lowest rates of infections and deaths from this virus. What have they all got in common? A few things like proper testing, lockdowns(some with less than ours) social distancing, proper tracking, quarantine and yep, masks. Every single one of them.

5 peer reviewed studies, not out of China where fear of upsetting the central government got us all into this mess.

So you're excluding any studies from researchers who have already dealt with outbreaks of lethal viruses, including coronaviruses and have long term experience in this? Instead want research from those who haven't? Would Korea suit, or are they just culturally in favour of masks anyway? Sheesh it's like talking about heart disease and insisting on research from arthritis specialists.

s7ryf3925pivug

Yes: other

We are one of the worst ten countries in the world when it comes to reported covid 19 deaths per capital, if you rule out countries with extremely low populations like Andorra. (If you include them then we are about the 13th worst.)

While we have half the ICU capacity of Italy, and a fraction that of Germany, it hasn't filled up yet so that is not the issue yet.

Seanergy

Yes: valved

paddy19 wrote: »

Should we make everybody in the country wear a mask on the opinion of a
HSE doctor no matter how eminent he is?

I am genuinely willing to be turned, as you put it, by the science.

Paddy19 any chance your a relation to Covid19?

Firstly, there are no eminent Doctor's inside the HSE and that's a scientific fact, the HSE can't even get masks on staff in nursing homes!

To answer your question, no everybody in country should not blanket wear masks on the opinion of the HSE they should wear masks when appropriate because they give a **** about their fellow citizens.

The science is simple kid, the virus comes out of our airwaves.

Dakota Dan

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Read the WHO & HSE guidelines on masks. Wearing one to the shops is a waste of a mask and money. They have no proven benefits unless you have the Virus or are nursing someone who has the virus.

Go sit outside a hospital and watch. You won't see doctors & nurses wearing masks coming out of work & on their journey home. They have been trained & they know masks are of no use in general use. They are a comfort thing for adults. Like a comfort blanket for a child. If you need an adults version of a blankey & don't mind looking stupid then go ahead and but them. Like surgical gloves they need to be replaced every 15 to 30 minutes so you will need to invest in a few dozen at a time

The people I laugh at are the ones driving their cars wearing a mask, how in the name of all that is holy do they think they'll pick up the virus in their car?

Dakota Dan

little bess wrote: »

Using ffp3 masks when going out at the moment, which is rarely as I’m high risk. My husband using them too.

I’ll side with 1.3 billion Chinese who use them.
They provide extra protection, so if you have one why not use it.

No idea where you’d get them now.

The Chinese have no other choice only to walk shoulder to shoulder, not revelant here.

Seanergy

Yes: valved

April Proud Hoof wrote: »

In the absence of a proper fit test, how are people trying to check the fit?

I am presuming your cleanly shaven? Not being cleanly shaven is in the top 3 reasons for failing seals on fit tests. The majority of mask users are not wearing sealed masks. Preform a taste fit test with some aersols, sweet and sour, it's a very subjective taste test to preform, takes a long time, was the mask a good fit before?

I'm wearing homemade cotton masks currently so fit testing for me is very differnet than for you, I preform movements to ensure my mask is fittingly snuggly and wont cause me to readjust during use.

S.M.B.

Seanergy wrote: »

I'm wearing homemade cotton masks currently so fit testing for me is very differnet than for you, I preform movements to ensure my mask is fittingly snuggly and wont cause me to readjust during use.

Do you just ensure that it won't slip while out or is there any other criteria you use to ensure its a good fit.

We made two prototypes today but am sure they can be improved upon.

Seanergy

Yes: valved

Wibbs wrote: »

They're already changing some of their tune.

That's a shift from even a week ago. I expect more as more places around the world make them cop the fcuk on. Though I still suspect it'll require the WHO, or more likely the ECDC to say it first, so they can repeat the "only following orders" get out of gaol free card they've been playing from the get go.

Still left the killer punchline unaltered though...


"Wearing a mask is unlikely to be of any benefit if you are not sick."

Seanergy

Yes: valved

S.M.B. wrote: »

Do you just ensure that it won't slip while out or is there any other criteria you use to ensure its a good fit.

We made two prototypes today but am sure they can be improved upon.

prototyping...good on ya....tweak it, test it, tweak it, test it, your end result will be a snug fit

Because we are making masks specfic to our face size and shapes, we get the opportunity during construction to sample fit and nudge, sample fit and nudge, etc. paying attention to negative spaces between the mask and the skin. I've ended up tailoring some cotton masks so well that I get suction.

The purpose of the fit test for us seeing we are using homemade masks is more than just checking to make sure they fit snuggly and won't slip.

We need to test that we can breath through it comfotably whilst moving around and potentially talking and for how long before it gets too humid and needs to be replaced? Maybe you double up on your filters or thin down on them....etc.keep testing.... modifying....you will eventual have the recipe that works for you.

Turning your heads from side to side, up and down, walking, talking. Preforming test motions similar to movements you will do when shopping and or wearing your mask and for a similar duration.

It's good to know ahead of time your shelf life for your reuseable masks. All my wear time has been under an hour to date, but lets say in the future I had to wear a mask for half a day I would be looking at replacing my mask every hour and I'd make sure to enjoy 5 mins fresh air during mask exchange.
Fit testing and hand washing play a critical role in safe mask usage.

Wibbs

Yes: other

Dakota Dan wrote: »

The people I laugh at are the ones driving their cars wearing a mask, how in the name of all that is holy do they think they'll pick up the virus in their car?

Ah I can see that DD, but for a personal example: When I go to the shops, a five minute drive from me, I put the mask on in my gaff go to the shops and take it off when I get back home after I wash my hands. Better than fiddling with it outside the shop and all that. Less risk of getting the dose and more, giving it to someone. Now when I have to drive for longer to a job, then I wouldn't wear if from home and back.

s7ryf3925pivug

Yes: other

Seanergy wrote: »

I am presuming your cleanly shaven? Not being cleanly shaven is in the top 3 reasons for failing seals on fit tests. The majority of mask users are not wearing sealed masks. Preform a taste fit test with some aersols, sweet and sour, it's a very subjective taste test to preform, takes a long time, was the mask a good fit before?

I'm wearing homemade cotton masks currently so fit testing for me is very differnet than for you, I preform movements to ensure my mask is fittingly snuggly and wont cause me to readjust during use.

Yeah I shave immediately before I put it on.

It was the first time wearing that specific type of mask actually. I wore different ones before either out or doing diy stuff. But it seemed ok when examining one at home. I think it worked better when sitting under my chin instead of on it if that makes sense. I think over-tightening the straps flattened it a bit across my nose instead of adhering to the contours. Wasn't sure how to loosen them though.

I think any attempt to emulate the aerosol spray test would have questionable reliability and would be likely to damage the mask. Very limited resources really.

paddy19

No: I don't care enough

Seanergy wrote: »

Paddy19 any chance your a relation to Covid19?

Firstly, there are no eminent Doctor's inside the HSE and that's a scientific fact, the HSE can't even get masks on staff in nursing homes!

To answer your question, no everybody in country should not blanket wear masks on the opinion of the HSE they should wear masks when appropriate because they give a **** about their fellow citizens.

The science is simple kid, the virus comes out of our airwaves.

I'm not a kid.

I was responding to Wibbs who quoted a HSE doctor.

Science is not simple, it is complex and messy and contradictory and evolving.

Still looking for 5 peer reviewed studies that show wearing masks in the outdoors limits viral transmission. I'm not looking for Covid transmission any viral transmission.

paddy19

No: I don't care enough

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't need peer reviewed studies to know they work, Paddy.

So you propose that we throw away the whole basis for modern science?

What would you replace science with?

Polling on social media like boards!
The views of experts on Pat Kenny!

When you produce an expert that takes one position and I find an expert that takes the opposite position how should we decide what to do?

How do handle the anti-vaxxers? They produce experts that will tell you vaccination is a danger to mankind.

The best of experts say I think a position seems to have some creditability
but we need to study it and find out if it holds water.
Then they produce peer reviews studies so that the data can tested and confirmed.

Obviously it's not perfect but it's darned site better than opinions.

Wibbs

Yes: other

Seanergy wrote: »

I am presuming your cleanly shaven? Not being cleanly shaven is in the top 3 reasons for failing seals on fit tests. The majority of mask users are not wearing sealed masks. Preform a taste fit test with some aersols, sweet and sour, it's a very subjective taste test to preform, takes a long time, was the mask a good fit before?

Tbh S I think the fitting aspect as far as sealing goes doesn't matter so much as far as the risk reduction overall. If you look at the videos of people coughing or sneezing in basic surgical masks compared to no mask the difference in expelled droplets is stark. And those masks aren't a great fit and certainly wouldn't pass muster in a hazard area on a construction site. The level of uptake of masks among the community is the biggest risk reducer.

Wibbs

Yes: other

paddy19 wrote: »

When you produce an expert that takes one position and I find an expert that takes the opposite position how should we decide what to do?

All experts agree that masks provide protection and reduce risk in clinical settings and in home settings when someone is sick and/or someone is looking after someone who is sick. The WHO, the ECDC, the CDC, the HSE, every single medical authority on the planet agrees with this position. So masks provide protection from and to the infected and non infected. That's their very purpose in infectious medicine.

And yet again, for what must be the third fourth fifth time now, I ask you how are masks protective in clinical settings and for people with an infection and those living with them, but the same masks magically lose this protective ability in a shop, or work space? Can you answer that, or do you believe they're not protective in clinical settings(though that would require insanity to believe that), or will you continue to ignore the evidence you claim you have to see to believe?

paddy19

paddy19 wrote: »

So you propose that we throw away the whole basis for modern science?

No. I said you don't need an expert to tell you that your breath doesn't go as far if your mouth is covered with something.

How you took it that I wanted to throw away science based on my post, I don't know.

Bob24

Wibbs wrote: »

All experts agree that masks provide protection and reduce risk in clinical settings and in home settings when someone is sick and/or someone is looking after someone who is sick.

Deleted User wrote: »

No. I said you don't need an expert to tell you that your breath doesn't go as far if your mouth is covered with something.

How you took it that I wanted to throw away science based on my post, I don't know.

Fair play for your patience folks, but aren’t you feeding a troll? (I think pretty much everyone on the thread would agree it’s trolling at this stage)

railer201

Yes: valved

Bob24 wrote: »

Fair play for your patience folks, but aren’t you feeding a troll? (I think pretty much everyone on the thread would agree it’s trolling at this stage)

...........+1 - unwanted noise really.

Wibbs

Yes: other

Bob24 wrote: »

Fair play for your patience folks, but aren’t you feeding a troll? (I think pretty much everyone on the thread would agree it’s trolling at this stage)

Maybe, though I personally know someone that has a major aversion to mask wearing and no matter what evidence or logical position is put to him his mind just snaps shut. Social distancing, hand washing and all that he's grand with, but masks, they're just going too far. It's a very deeply dug in thing with him. What's kinda mad is that he actually has used respirators in his work.

reg114

paddy19 wrote: »

I'm not a kid.

I was responding to Wibbs who quoted a HSE doctor.

Science is not simple, it is complex and messy and contradictory and evolving.

Still looking for 5 peer reviewed studies that show wearing masks in the outdoors limits viral transmission. I'm not looking for Covid transmission any viral transmission.

Five you say ?

1.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662657/

2.https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

3.https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(08)01008-4/fulltext

4.https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/49/2/275/405108

5.https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1003205

The evidence of the benefit of wearing masks indoors or outdoors as a method of mitigating transmission of aerosolized viruses is incontrovertible. The efficacy of the mask depends on the materials used within the mask with medical grade masks clearly being far more efficient than a homemade mask. That being said any basic mask made with items from around the home would be more efficient at preventing the spread of the virus, than using no mask at all.

As an aside if you have a vacuum cleaner at home the bag inside the cleaner contains a hepa filter which has been proven to be as efficacious as a medical grade mask, as they are made of the same multiple layers of tightly woven fibres.

It also must be emphasised, a mask is primarily worn to reduce the transmission by an infected person to those who are non infected. This is crucial in the context of covid19 where infected patients possess a huge viral load in their nose and throats and are at risk of shedding everytime they exhale. Someone can be asymptomatic and be shedding as the breathe in the queue in tesco, if they are wearing even a homemade mask meade from a scarf or t shirt they will shed less to their immediate environment than they would if their mouth was uncovered.

Incidentally the term 'peer reviewed' simply means 'published', it is not a guarantee that the findings are factually correct. The overriding evidence regarding the efficacy of masks is not in question for the majority of immunologists and the medical profession as a whole.

2u2me

My washing machine works inside my house. I'm quite sure of that. I won't believe it works outside my house until someone provides me 5 peer reviewed papers. This is how science works people.

stratowide

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe, though I personally know someone that has a major aversion to mask wearing and no matter what evidence or logical position is put to him his mind just snaps shut. Social distancing, hand washing and all that he's grand with, but masks, they're just going too far. It's a very deeply dug in thing with him. What's kinda mad is that he actually has used respirators in his work.

Reminds me of the quote from the series House.

'If you could reason with religious people,there would be no religious people.'

Seanergy

Yes: valved

Bob24 wrote: »

Fair play for your patience folks, but aren’t you feeding a troll? (I think pretty much everyone on the thread would agree it’s trolling at this stage)

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe, though I personally know someone that has a major aversion to mask wearing and no matter what evidence or logical position is put to him his mind just snaps shut.

I was wondering the same both that Paddy19 could be trolling and also that he might just have a serious aversion to being told to wear a mask.

My current approach is to feed the fire, he's claiming to have an open mind so he either get's banned or his logical mind overrides his emotional mind and he realises by himself that wearing a mask whilst in congested internal and external spaces makes sense both for his own safety and the safety of others.

There is a stronger aversion to masks in America than I would have expected, and they got pelted by the virus.