Ireland's Hospitals owned by the Rich

tjhook

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

What countries? Can anyone show me all these peer countries that supposedly have great affordable healthcare systems?

Ireland second-highest OECD health spending, poorest outcomes

European countries with better healthcare systems than Ireland:

• France
• Italy
• Andorra
• Malta
• Spain
• Austria
• Norway
• Portugal
• Greece
• Iceland
• Luxembourg
• Netherlands
• UK

We can quibble over the details, but I don't think we're getting value for the money we're spending.

IAMAMORON

Edgware wrote: »

There are kids waiting on public lists for the scoliosis operation while resources in private hospitals are being used to make z list celebrities tits bigger.

Where?

Yellow_Fern

tjhook wrote: »

Ireland second-highest OECD health spending, poorest outcomes

European countries with better healthcare systems than Ireland:

• France
• Italy
• Andorra
• Malta
• Spain
• Austria
• Norway
• Portugal
• Greece
• Iceland
• Luxembourg
• Netherlands
• UK

We can quibble over the details, but I don't think we're getting value for the money we're spending.

All ranking systems have their merits and have flaws. Are you aware that life expectancy in Ireland is higher than many of the countries that you list? That ranking system lists Ireland above Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Israel, Finland, Denmark and Belgium. That is hardly a poor result, come one?

If you look at newer data, actually Ireland spends a very middling amount on healthcare as a percent of GDP, of course we have distorted GDP figs but it is complicated. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance_eur-2018-30-en.pdf?expires=1585421834&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=E113F03A7B00504CA06A749EE91827E5

Yellow_Fern

Edgware wrote: »

There are kids waiting on public lists for the scoliosis operation while resources in private hospitals are being used to make z list celebrities tits bigger.

Tragically breast specialist plastic surgeons are not permitted to become pediatric orthopedic surgeons at the drop of a hat.

tjhook

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

All ranking systems have their merits and have flaws. Are you aware that life expectancy in Ireland is higher than many of the countries that you list? That ranking system lists Ireland above Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Israel, Finland, Denmark and Belgium. That is hardly a poor result, come one?

if you look at newer data, actually Ireland spend a very middle about on healthcare as percent of GDP. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance_eur-2018-30-en.pdf?expires=1585421834&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=E113F03A7B00504CA06A749EE91827E5

As I said, we can quibble. I would have difficulty with any comparative measurement that is based on GDP, which will always produce strange results in an Irish context. Irish GDP is unusually large, so anything measured against GDP will be low.

On the topic of the thread, if you do believe Ireland's public health system is among the best, then surely there should be no problem with people wasting their money on private health care? There should be no problem with private hospitals?

1641

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

All ranking systems have their merits and have flaws. Are you aware that life expectancy in Ireland is higher than many of the countries that you list? That ranking system lists Ireland above Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Israel, Finland, Denmark and Belgium. That is hardly a poor result, come one?

if you look at newer data, actually Ireland spend a very middle about on healthcare as percent of GDP. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance_eur-2018-30-en.pdf?expires=1585421834&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=E113F03A7B00504CA06A749EE91827E5

GDP is largely irrelevant as a measure of national income for Ireland as has been indicated by ESRI. The relevant figure is GNI. Other European countries don't have the same distortion effect on GDP - due the relatively higher proportion of multinationals with accounting headquarters here but with more limited real economic activity. Using GNI, our proportion spent on health is much higher.
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-nie/nie2017/mgni/

TheCitizen

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

You didn’t know that private hospitals were owned by private individuals?

Who did you think owned them?

Wow this smart arse retort gets a load of Likes. Says a lot about a fairly large cohort on this site. I think it's fair and informative to discuss who exactly owns the private hospitals in this country, they're not doing it for the collective good of our health are they?

NewRed2

TheCitizen wrote: »

Wow this smart arse retort gets a load of Likes. Says a lot about a fairly large cohort on this site. I think it's fair and informative to discuss who exactly owns the private hospitals in this country, they're not doing it for the collective good of our health are they?

Yeah it was a smart ass retort and on first page, 3 posts down. If you check out most boards threads the ones that get the cheap thanks wil be on first page.
Say something flippant or half funny or even semi-relevant and sarcastic and yer golden. Showered in comps from peope who dont know you and I suppose it does something for the person posting but yeah you're right it's a serious issue. Mind, I think both sides gave their opinion and the thread developed well. Not a massive amount left to say really.

LuasSimon

What happens when Larry good man and Denis o brien owns all the hospitals what’s next ?
All the graveyards and crematoriums?
It seems wrong men like these can own so much of Ireland but won’t pay taxes here ??

Geuze

NewRed2 wrote: »

No, wrong again. I didn't imply anything. It was you who said you are a totalitarian state if you have 100% public health care.

People are free to start practices / surgeries / etc., if they wish.

If healthcare is to be the monopoly of the State, then it becomes like rail transport in Ireland?

Is that what you mean?

A State-owned and State-operated monopoly?

So all GPs / doctors / hosps owned and operated by the State?

I am trying to think of a comparison.

Not education, as people are free to establish schools.

Not electricity, as new firms are free to enter the generation and supply markets.

I would not agree with this suggestion.

I suggest a multitude of diverse providers (not-for-profit / religious / for-profit / State), but with 100% of the population having access to all providers.

IAMAMORON

LuasSimon wrote: »

What happens when Larry good man and Denis o brien owns all the hospitals what’s next ?
All the graveyards and crematoriums?
It seems wrong men like these can own so much of Ireland but won’t pay taxes here ??

Such entrepreneurs are responsible for billions of this countries' GDP. They pay a lot of tax in Ireland.

Would you prefer if Ireland did not allow people to make money here?

What about all the jobs and employment they provide?

Graveyards and crematoriums are privately owned in Ireland as it stands, please tell me you knew this?

Geuze

KyussB wrote: »

Keep the hospitals we've just temporarily nationalized, permanently nationalized - and eliminate all advantages that private health insurance gives, when accessing public health services (in general, eliminate all ways people can 'buy their way' into preferential treatment, in the public health services).

We have not bought these hosps.

You seems to be suggesting to remove private practice from public hosps.

I would agree with you.

However, there are reasons why private practice is in public hosps, so these would have to be dealt with.

Geuze

LuasSimon wrote: »

What happens when Larry good man and Denis o brien owns all the hospitals what’s next ?
All the graveyards and crematoriums?
It seems wrong men like these can own so much of Ireland but won’t pay taxes here ??

Does Goodman live abroad?

Salary Negotiator

Geuze wrote: »

Does Goodman live abroad?

He says he’s tax resident in Ireland.

NewRed2

Geuze wrote: »

People are free to start practices / surgeries / etc., if they wish.

If healthcare is to be the monopoly of the State, then it becomes like rail transport in Ireland?

Is that what you mean?

A State-owned and State-operated monopoly?

So all GPs / doctors / hosps owned and operated by the State?

I am trying to think of a comparison.

Not education, as people are free to establish schools.

Not electricity, as new firms are free to enter the generation and supply markets.

I would not agree with this suggestion.

I suggest a multitude of diverse providers (not-for-profit / religious / for-profit / State), but with 100% of the population having access to all providers.

Look this is very simple. You go back and review our conversation and you know full well that you (mistakenly) said you're a totalitarian state if you introuduce 100% public health care.
You do NOT become a totalitarian state just because you introduce 100% public health care.
What you said last night about totaliatiarism and comparing it to Korea was wrong.
I've asked you three times to acknowledge that and every time you come back with a reply that ignores your mistake.
I'll engage with you when you accept that you were wrong about a 100% public health system equalling a totalitarian state.

IAMAMORON

Geuze wrote: »

Does Goodman live abroad?

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

He says he’s tax resident in Ireland.

Where he lives is irrelevant.

If Larry Goodman wants to build or buy 1 or 50 hospitals in Ireland it is his own business. There is no law against it.

Would you prefer a government that controlled what you did everyday and did not allow you economic freedom?

gary550

LuasSimon wrote: »

What happens when Larry good man and Denis o brien owns all the hospitals what’s next ?
All the graveyards and crematoriums?
It seems wrong men like these can own so much of Ireland but won’t pay taxes here ??

Eh that wont ever happen......like ever. They own private hospitals for people who want to pay for private hospitals, its as simple as that really. Maybe if the clowns running the HSE started running it like they didn't have an endless pot of cash we would have a much more modern & efficient healthcare system worthy of inward investment. Same goes for the highly inefficient county councils dabbed around the country.

As for the paying taxes, if you look into it the companies Larry Goodman owns they are operating in a number of countries and I would imagine they would have to be tax compliant in each. I am not privy to his personal tax arrangements but at the end of the day its none of my business either.

Salary Negotiator

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Where he lives is irrelevant.

If Larry Goodman wants to build or buy 1 or 50 hospitals in Ireland it is his own business. There is no law against it.

Would you prefer a government that controlled what you did everyday and did not allow you economic freedom?

I’ve no issue with him or anyone else offering healthcare for profit, I was just answering the question which I assumed was geared towards whether he pays tax in Ireland or not.

Yellow_Fern

tjhook wrote: »

On the topic of the thread, if you do believe Ireland's public health system is among the best, then surely there should be no problem with people wasting their money on private health care? There should be no problem with private hospitals?

Why? Why should that be the case? We have wonderful public schools but people still use private schools too.

tjhook

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Why? Why should that be the case? We have wonderful public schools but people still use private schools too.

I may have misunderstood your position - I thought you were against people having the choice to use/pay for private hospitals?

Yellow_Fern

tjhook wrote: »

I may have misunderstood your position - I thought you were against people having the choice to use/pay for private hospitals?

Fair enough. No I am libertarian leaning. I support people doing what ever they want with healthcare.

tjhook

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Fair enough. No I am libertarian leaning. I support people doing what ever they want with healthcare.

Apologies, my mistake so.

Edgware

Edgware wrote: »

There are kids waiting on public lists for the scoliosis operation while resources in private hospitals are being used to make z list celebrities tits bigger.

Typically, women wanting such operations will go abroad.. because they have an established reputation, and generally are better skilled. There just isn't the population in Ireland to satisfy the justification of having such a plastic surgeon in this country...

I don't suppose you have any links/evidence to private hospitals doing such operations in Ireland? Even if they are, I suspect the numbers are extremely low. I've friends who have done various cosmetic surgery and they've all headed to Germany or Switzerland for such operations. A few to the UK.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Where he lives is irrelevant.

If Larry Goodman wants to build or buy 1 or 50 hospitals in Ireland it is his own business. There is no law against it.

Would you prefer a government that controlled what you did everyday and did not allow you economic freedom?

I think it's the case of people wanting one set of laws for the rich and one set for everyone else. Naturally the laws relating to the rich would be harsher, and less equal with everyone else. It's the thing that was raised with SF (nope, I'm not bashing), but the focus has recently shifted to blaming the rich for everything as if they're not making any substantial contributions, and that they're all gaming the system. Somehow. And when that goes south, they'll be wanting a different set of laws for the middle class versus the working class. Everyone is a victim these days, and for that to happen, there has to be a bad guy, whether it's merited or not. Hence the attack on private healthcare.. since let's face it the vast majority of people using private in this country, aren't rich. They're middle class.

It's unrealistic, naive, and IMHO, stupid.. but it is what it is.

Geuze

Ok, we would not have to be a totalitarian state to have a 100% public monopoly on healthcare provision.

But I still don't agree with the idea.

In very few areas does the State act as the 100% financing and provider agent?

Is there any area?

Railways?

What worries me with public provision is the following:

• lack of drive / efficiency / productivity - staff have told me that private hosps do twice the procedures per session than public hosps (how true or widespread this is, I don't know)
• excessive costs = Bertie Ahern did a deal with the unions when the 8 health boards merged into the HSE - not a single job lost
• excessive trade union demarcation rules

I wish to harness the speed / productivity and innovation of capitalism, while guaranteeing everybody 100% access, not based on income.

How? I'm not sure, but compulsory 100% insurance appeals to me.

Leave the provision of healthcare to a mix of private / religious / public, but ensure that everybody has equal access to care.

KyussB

It's such a stupid and hyperbolic comparison in the first place, to present a public monopoly on healthcare as totalitarian - completely discreditable statement, which solely demonstrates a desire to smear.

The country has been run by parties with a demonstrable policy record of favouring the wealthy/powerful, with gigantic sums of public money being handed away to that class of people, and policy which crapifies public services in order to aid in those services being spun-off into private control, at a greater cost to the public - with this going on for a decade+, shoved right in the publics face.

People are done with that, and won't willingly have any more of it - they know the main political parties have been working against their interests - and that the claim that private provision leads to better outcomes, is an intellectually insulting lie, advanced solely for political ends.

In the middle of this crisis now, when private hospitals have effectively already been nationalized, is the perfect time to solidify this gain - and ensure these insititutions never enter into private control again - and that health insurance is entirely abolished, and absorbed into the tax base - as it should be.

I'm curious... where do you place all the Middle class in that? Since it's the middle class who are the main customer group for the private hospitals.

The "rich" are a relatively small group compared to the overall population.

KyussB

When public provision of hospitals and such is the only option, every societal/socioeconomic group has an interest in ensuring public health services are of the highest quality - which ensures heavy political pressure for keeping things that way.

Geuze

KyussB wrote: »

In the middle of this crisis now, when private hospitals have effectively already been nationalized, is the perfect time to solidify this gain - and ensure these insititutions never enter into private control again - and that health insurance is entirely abolished, and absorbed into the tax base - as it should be.

To clarify:

(1) what happens if an owner won't sell the hosp? Expropriation?

(2) does this mean we force all doctors to become HSE employees, and that any/all private practice is banned?

(3) has any country ever done this?


Many people I know like having health insurance, they won't be happy losing it.

Geuze

KyussB wrote: »

- and that health insurance is entirely abolished, and absorbed into the tax base - as it should be.

Why then do many continental countries have health insurance schemes?

And have had them for 100 years plus?