Ireland's Hospitals owned by the Rich

purifol0

jobeenfitz wrote: »

Or he's taking a shot at the billionaire owners who avoid paying their fair share of tax here.

Maybe we could have better public services, including health care if they did?

The last govt dumped more money in the HSE than any other govt we ever had, yet trolley numbers just rose and rose.


No private sector tax payer would advocate ever putting more into the HSE.


For what its worth this is not a country that should be giving out about billionaires taxes. If they and the rest of the multi nationals had to pay tax in their country of origin the world would indeed be a better place - but Ireland? Nope we'd be broke overnight.

jobeenfitz

purifol0 wrote: »

The last govt dumped more money in the HSE than any other govt we ever had, yet trolley numbers just rose and rose.


No private sector tax payer would advocate ever putting more into the HSE.

Yes I agree with your point on putting more money into the HSE, that doesn't take from the fact that we need super rich people and companies to pay their fair amount or systems collapse.

purifol0

jobeenfitz wrote: »

purifol0 wrote: »

The last govt dumped more money in the HSE than any other govt we ever had, yet trolley numbers just rose and rose.


No private sector tax payer would advocate ever putting more into the HSE.

Yes I agree with your point on putting more money into the HSE, that doesn't take from the fact that we need super rich people and companies to pay their fair amount or systems collapse.

Never said they shouldn't. But this thread is about the OP wanting to nationalise the private hospitals. If they did that the HSE would take them over and then citizens would have to go abroad to get appointments because the public system is unfit for purpose. And a major cause is the unions within it blocking reform at every turn.

jobeenfitz

purifol0 wrote: »

jobeenfitz wrote: »

Never said they shouldn't. But this thread is about the OP wanting to nationalise the private hospitals. If they did that the HSE would take them over and then citizens would have to go abroad to get appointments because the public system is unfit for purpose. And a major cause is the unions within it blocking reform at every turn.

Government has some responsibility here too, FF and Mary Harney(PD) gave us the HSE to solve our health crises, things seemed to have got worse since.

Like I said we need a fair system and a competent government to fix our health system. Just because the HSE is unable to get value for the money doesn't mean we give up. We fix it.

Everybody can't afford to go abroad for operations.

There is also questions to be answered if people like O'brien and Goodman are owners of hospitals IMO.

LuasSimon

Just seems mad the wealth of some alleged Irish people owning the country’s hospitals and won’t pay tax in this country despite-the fact they are worth billions . The same Larry goodman then pays his staff in meat plant peanuts ie minimum wage for a very demanding physical job .cant even get Irish people to do it
Could these rich people not pay people a bit more and pay tax in this country and better the lot of our country for us all .
Why are some people so greedy , Will Larry good man or Denis o brien not be happy until they have all the money in Ireland ?

Salary Negotiator

LuasSimon wrote: »

Just seems mad the wealth of some alleged Irish people owning the country’s hospitals and won’t pay tax in this country despite-the fact they are worth billions . The same Larry goodman then pays his staff in meat plant peanuts ie minimum wage for a very demanding physical job .cant even get Irish people to do it
Could these rich people not pay people a bit more and pay tax in this country and better the lot of our country for us all .
Why are some people so greedy , Will Larry good man or Denis o brien not be happy until they have all the money in Ireland ?

But they’re not and never were the country’s hospitals.

It’s not like the Blackrock Clinic was a public hospital initially that was later privatised, it was set up by a doctor back in the 80’s and has grown in size and services since then.

If the government and unions hadn’t messed up the healthcare system there wouldn’t be a need for private hospitals.

I don’t blame the entrepreneurs for spotting a gap in government services.

jobeenfitz

LuasSimon wrote: »

Just seems mad the wealth of some alleged Irish people owning the country’s hospitals and won’t pay tax in this country despite-the fact they are worth billions . The same Larry goodman then pays his staff in meat plant peanuts ie minimum wage for a very demanding physical job .cant even get Irish people to do it
Could these rich people not pay people a bit more and pay tax in this country and better the lot of our country for us all .
Why are some people so greedy , Will Larry good man or Denis o brien not be happy until they have all the money in Ireland ?

These mega rich are basically becoming Kings and Queens. They'll own everything and the masses shall be their subjects until they can take no more.

AllForIt

If your in the business of improving ppl's lives in the most important respect of all i.e health, and do that well, even saving ppl's lives sometimes, then if anyone deserves to be rich in a capitalist world, they do.

KyussB

Politics for the last 40+ years has been defined by governments crapifying public services, in order to privatize them to varying degrees, and funnel money into private hands - it happens in most major public sectors - and in health as well. It's become widely known through the term NeoLiberalism.

What it means is that the public health services will not improve well enough, while wealthier classes have an interest in using political parties to advance privatization, since that's in the financial interests of that particular class.

This type of tension/tug-of-war in politics, between the public and the powerful/wealthy, will always exist.

Due to that, the best way to ensure it is in the interests of the wealthy, to have proper public health services - and thus for this to be properly reflected in politics, even when it is corrupted by those with power/wealth - is to ensure that public health services are the ONLY health services available.

I say that as someonee with private health insurance, and relatives who've benefited from the same.

The One Doctor

To be fair, I was on the waiting list a few years for a procedure and eventually the govt ended up sending me to the Blackrock Clinic for it. Lovely hospital, but I actually got worse treatment than in a public hospital. The ironing.

byhookorbycrook

I pay private health care . If I’m admitted to my local public hospital, the Health insurance pays through the nose for my bed. So essentially I subsidize others .
The said public hospital doesn’t offer a treatment I need , so I travel to a private hospital ( for which my health insurance also pays ) for it . We go without to pay for this insurance, we don’t have foreign holidays , top of the range phones , new cars, like many others of our peers who don’t pay for insurance.

If tax were to equitable and service improved , there wouldn’t be a need for VHI etc, but when you look at the HSE , you just can’t wonder where the money goes . One recent visit to the private hospital resulted in a 7 day stay . The room had 2 beds , a good nurse to patient ratio, was spotlessly clean and had excellent food .Its run as a business, so presumably has to be solvent
How can a HSE ward with 12 bed ward with a tiny amount of nurses, poor cleaning and cheap and nasty food not at least break even ?

IAMAMORON

I suggest you save up and buy your own hospital. Then you can start criticising someone who already has. Until you purchase your own hospital you really would not know what it is like.

This is a free country, you are allowed buy your own hospital whenever you want.

Would you prefer it if the government made it illegal for you to purchase your own hospital? What else should your government not allow you to do?

purifol0

KyussB wrote: »

Politics for the last 40+ years has been defined by governments crapifying public services, in order to privatize them to varying degrees, and funnel money into private hands - it happens in most major public sectors - and in health as well. It's become widely known through the term NeoLiberalism.

Hey mate what country do you live in? Because your post has nothing to do with this one.

We live in a welfare state. The health service is the states biggest expense. 100,000 employees work in it. All of them fully pensioned, most of them unionised. We'll soon have the most expensive children's hospital in the world FFS

How exactly is funding it and it's workers to that extent crapifying it?

KyussB

The Children's Hospital: Even when Ireland does build a new public hospital, the NeoLiberal policies our governments are lobbied into, mean they won't build it without shovelling gigantic wads of public money into private hands - in seemingly unlimited cost overruns by the private contractor.

That's the perfect example of what I'm talking about.

jobeenfitz

KyussB wrote: »

Politics for the last 40+ years has been defined by governments crapifying public services, in order to privatize them to varying degrees, and funnel money into private hands - it happens in most major public sectors - and in health as well. It's become widely known through the term NeoLiberalism.

What it means is that the public health services will not improve well enough, while wealthier classes have an interest in using political parties to advance privatization, since that's in the financial interests of that particular class.

This type of tension/tug-of-war in politics, between the public and the powerful/wealthy, will always exist.

Due to that, the best way to ensure it is in the interests of the wealthy, to have proper public health services - and thus for this to be properly reflected in politics, even when it is corrupted by those with power/wealth - is to ensure that public health services are the ONLY health services available.

I say that as someonee with private health insurance, and relatives who've benefited from the same.

So how do you ensure that "public health services are the ONLY health services available"?

NewRed2

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Private hospitals should be nationalised and future ones outlawed. It's as simple as that. Nobody should own hospitals other than the state and they should serve no purpose other than serving the public as best they can.

I'm aware it's an unpopular opinion here but I agree with Patrick.


I think many things can be bought and sold in life but when it comes to health care I think it should all be equal.

I wholly disagree with private hospitals existing in this country. I think if there was only the one system we would all be happy to pay a bit more towards it in tax and everyone gets treated the same.
I'm fine with wealth getting you more buying power in most walks of life but I think its wrong when it comes to health. I'm with Patick on this.

KyussB

jobeenfitz wrote: »

So how do you ensure that "public health services are the ONLY health services available"?

Keep the hospitals we've just temporarily nationalized, permanently nationalized - and eliminate all advantages that private health insurance gives, when accessing public health services (in general, eliminate all ways people can 'buy their way' into preferential treatment, in the public health services).

kowloon

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Food is even more essential than healthcare. Do you want to nationalise all the supermarkets too?

They could sell government cheese.

sheesh

I am not sure what is the right answer to the questions in the thread I don't think that private hospitals should be banned as they are started by private individuals with their money for the purpose of profit and if people want to use them let them it is a case of personal freedom.

I think there should be universal health care. I also do not understand what is so complicated about running a hospital that makes it such a money pit. I mean I know hospitals are expensive we as a country spend a lot of money on the health system and it was still **** and if we put more money into it it did not seem to get much better. we were at full employment before the cornavirus hit and we still had a **** health system.

Junkyard Tom

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Food is even more essential than healthcare. Do you want to nationalise all the supermarkets too?

I think you've managed to pack a combination of two fallacies into one statement.

Stawman + continuum fallacy.

Well done.

NewRed2

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Food is even more essential than healthcare. Do you want to nationalise all the supermarkets too?

Stupid comparison. I grow my own vegetables and herbs here, do you think I should try a bit of surgery?

Geuze

LuasSimon wrote: »

Like many i wouldn't have known that all these private hospitals ( blackrock,galway clinic etc ) seem to be owned by our own Oligarch rich like Larry Goodman and Denis O Brien.

When will these people ever have enough wealth and to make it worse they wont pay tax in this country, preferring to pay a micky mouse percentage in Luxembourg or Malta. What good are these people to Ireland, fine they will rent out their hospitals at the minute but how much are they pocketing out of it ( more Millions?). These rich seem to be very cosy with the Fine Gael government .

Is it any wonder so many are only existing in this country when a small number of people measure their wealth in Billions and essentially have the vast majority of the country's wealth, theres very little left for the rest of the population.

Goodman only bought into the Blackrock/Galway Clinics recently.

The two previous owners are the Sheehan brothers, there was a falling out of some sorts.

All well reported.

Geuze

LuasSimon wrote: »

I thought the state owned them but only for Private Heathcare members.

!!!!!!!!!!


I'm sorry, I really am, but come on now.................

Geuze

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Private hospitals should be nationalised and future ones outlawed. It's as simple as that. Nobody should own hospitals other than the state and they should serve no purpose other than serving the public as best they can.

Note that in the German and French systems, with most of the population covered by health insurance, the provision of healthcare is left to various providers.

State
for profit
not-for profit.

Geuze

jobeenfitz wrote: »

Maybe this is for a different thread but there is a connection.

Some children are waiting years for a scoliosis operation, their backs end up deformed more because of the wait than the disease itself.

Not to mention the pain and hardship to the child. The stress and worry to the parents or in some case parent.

Anybody who has seen the documentary's will understand.

Yes and the blame in that case is the consultant who favour their private practice.

Geuze

LuasSimon wrote: »

Just seems mad the wealth of some alleged Irish people owning the country’s hospitals and won’t pay tax in this country despite-the fact they are worth billions . The same Larry goodman then pays his staff in meat plant peanuts ie minimum wage for a very demanding physical job .cant even get Irish people to do it
Could these rich people not pay people a bit more and pay tax in this country and better the lot of our country for us all .
Why are some people so greedy , Will Larry good man or Denis o brien not be happy until they have all the money in Ireland ?

The answer is simple.

Change the 183 day rule.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/jobs-and-pensions/tax-residence/how-to-know-if-you-are-resident-for-tax-purposes.aspx

Geuze

The One Doctor wrote: »

To be fair, I was on the waiting list a few years for a procedure and eventually the govt ended up sending me to the Blackrock Clinic for it. Lovely hospital, but I actually got worse treatment than in a public hospital. The ironing.

Irony.

Geuze

KyussB wrote: »

Due to that, the best way to ensure it is in the interests of the wealthy, to have proper public health services - and thus for this to be properly reflected in politics, even when it is corrupted by those with power/wealth - is to ensure that public health services are the ONLY health services available.

I say that as someonee with private health insurance, and relatives who've benefited from the same.

This implies a totalitarian State.

Geuze

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think you've managed to pack a combination of two fallacies into one statement.

Stawman + continuum fallacy.

Well done.

No, that post is correct.

If somebody states: h/c is a human right, therefore it should be 100% publicly provided,

then the same logic applies to food production and distribution


There must be, and there is, some other rationale for State intervention in h/care.

NewRed2

Geuze wrote: »

This implies a totalitarian State.

No it doesn't. You might want to check the meaning of a totalitarian state again there.
Come back to us after you do and explain to us why a state with a 100% public health service needs to be totalitarian.


We both know you're wrong.