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"Everyday Racism"
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I have seen lots of "reputable" organisations and people linking to MASI over the last couple of days. Here, from the "About Us" page of MASI's website:
https://www.masi.ie/about-us/
"For us, MASI is a way to take back our power and demand freedom, justice and dignity for all asylum seekers."
"MASI demands the end of direct provision, the right to work and education, and opposes deportation"
"MASI demands an end to direct provision, the right to work and education, residency for all in the system, and an end to the brutal deportation regime"
"Back in October 2014 MASI petitioned politicians, Department of Justice, and each and every member of the Working Group individually demanding that asylum seeker representatives from all 34 centres, chosen by us, needed to be at the Working Group table."
It's a lot of demands, isn't it, from a group which represents those who are not here legally? They are demanding, essentially, that we have open borders, and that anyone who arrives here has the right to education and work, permanent residency and for no-one to be deported. For all the virtue signallers saying they'll be donating to MASI this week, do they really, really want open borders? I am genuinely curious how many people want that outside the small group of extremists and those affiliated to NGOs.
Demand the right to work lol .The ones that came here during the anchor baby days, working was the last thing on their mind , a lot of them only came here for our overly generous Welfare system , free house , medical card , children's allowance etc. Most of them couldn't work to warm themselves0 -
kildare lad wrote: »Demand the right to work lol .The ones that came here during the anchor baby days, working was the last thing on their mind , a lot of them only came here for our overly generous Welfare system , free house , medical card , children's allowance etc. Most of them couldn't work to warm themselves
Same can be said about a lot of irish people... Especially in Kildare we have loads of career welfare claimers0 -
Kevhog1988 wrote: »Same can be said about a lot of irish people... Especially in Kildare we have loads of career welfare claimers
When we have ready supply of home grown ones it doesnt really make sense to import more...0 -
marklazarcovic wrote: »Im 45 now,Irish all generations of family Irish,white,like most people here I'd imagine.
And I'm sick of being almost forced to feel guilty about things that happened to black people decades/centuries ago,when us Irish committed none of those crimes,and if I don't feel the guilt I'm somehow a racist for saying it,or voicing a opinion on it. Like the kid in salthill video, screaming blue murder ,with venom in his anger ,about police brutality..no,white man police brutality, a kid of Nigerian decent..is there white police brutality in Nigeria ? Who's family 'fled' that country and claimed asylum here,even though technically they should not have gotten to Ireland to do so.. directly..
Are his family's lives worse now? Is his opportunities limited now he's here? What about his health care,his education? This goes for all black people coming to Ireland,and I say blacks because they seem to be the ones having come here of their own free will,with all the problems of 'oppression' in Ireland,those and the travellers..
How does that kid grow up hating white Irish society? How does any refugee/asylum seeker demand anything from a country who will house them,feed theme,and educate them for free, provided there are legitimate in their claim? And those of parents who settled here illegally ,how have they a issue with the Irish people? Are their lives worse now ?
I think a lot of people are sick of the complaints of those who come here for help,are given a far better life,their kids can grow up normally with every opportunity like everyone else,but yet it's not enough,they need more because of what some other white people did to some other black people in some other countries around the world.
To me,it seems black children are brought up to always hate the white people no matter what,in places like America I guess that's understandable to a extent, but black children born here,or raised here have no reason to feel unequal to anyone.. it's all social media and their peers telling them they must feel the anger of their ancestors past .. and that whites are the cause of it.
And we,who are helping these people have a better life get told we are racist,told we are racist if we don't march with them,don't fight for them,don't speak up for them,give them jobs because they are black, l mean,it's not like we have any of our own problems or struggles in life regardless of what colour we are,but we are racist if we don't drop everything to support them.. just the whites though..the Asians don't need to do it,nor Hispanics/Latino countries,hell..not even white Russia..just European/American whites ..
I'm Irish,white,not racist in the slightest,and Im fed listening to how bad I should feel about that because I'm not out virtue signalling for people who think we/i oppressed them. I've seen more racism by black people in this country than by white people, but I don't march about it.
I agree. Probably get called racist for the post though0 -
Kevhog1988 wrote: »Same can be said about a lot of irish people... Especially in Kildare we have loads of career welfare claimers
Id agree with that, but don't see the point in taking people in that can't support themselves , what benefit does the state get out of it besides paying out a load of money0 -
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Kevhog1988 wrote: »Same can be said about a lot of irish people... Especially in Kildare we have loads of career welfare claimers
Except they don't matter. That's the cross taxpayers bear in any country. It's not relevant to any such discussion, because we already have initiatives to reduce their numbers, and in reality, their numbers are manageable. The duty of society is to support the weakest members of that society... members of that society....0 -
international solidarity between oppressed peoples used to be a major source of strength and support, but no-one can take away black people's title of most oppressed people ever (as the Holocaust passes away from living memory and being anti-Israeli becomes more mainstream)
If you go through history most people had it rough at some stage. A lot of black people skip over that fact that Africans were sold on to be slaves by other Africans .0 -
Absolutely. And those should be stopped too.Kevhog1988 wrote: »Same can be said about a lot of irish people... Especially in Kildare we have loads of career welfare claimers
But, until we stop the Irish leeches, we could stop importing more0 -
I'm glad to see this even being discussed on this forum. Because there is no moderate reasonable voice to challenge the current ridiculous narrative pushed by our national broadcaster and "paper of record". On the opposite end of the spectrum you have loons like Gemma O'Doherty or a forum like Political Irish which actually is full of racists and whacko conspiracy theorists, and nothing in between.
I can't even look at social media the last few days. What happened in Minneapolis was appalling and America's toxic mess has been brewing for many years now. It is of their own making and theirs to sort out. But we do not need to import and amplify their discourse which has nothing to do with us or the situation of black people in Ireland. It is divisive and is stoking actual racism and civil unrest. I agree with marklazarcovic's post above, I am really sick of people being handed a lifestyle and opportunities beyond their wildest dreams by the Irish taxpayer, and abusing that generosity by failing to support themselves financially and then heaping insult to injury by insulting us and claiming that they are hard done by. And I'm sick of the clueless native Irish idiots who endorse this. I personally know of social housing developments in my area which are almost entirely populated by people who spent time in direct provision. This already causes bad feeling locally as they are seen to be queue jumping by having large families that Irish people cannot afford. It's been 20 years now, so people have had ample time to witness the new cars, the comfortable lifestyle, the long holidays back home to this supposed wartorn country as soon as they get their leave to remain. People are not idiots. And now to have this nonsense pushed at them every day, that they're supposed to feel additional guilt??
I'm all for international solidarity with oppressed people, it's always been there. In 1862 cotton workers in Lancashire went on strike, at great personal cost, because they refused to touch raw cotton handled by slaves in America. We all remember boycotts of South African products during the apartheid regime last century. There's nothing wrong with marking and protesting the murder of George Floyd and contacting American representatives in Ireland. But to feed this into some huge eternal grievance stoking about all white people and all black people everywhere? In this country? Just no.0 -
It's been 20 years now, so people have had ample time to witness the new cars, the comfortable lifestyle, the long holidays back home to this supposed wartorn country as soon as they get their leave to remain.
Yeah. Every time I see a person with a different skin colour to myself, drive and nice car, or have a nice clothes or house, I feel my blood boil.
Of course they came by these things by some nefarious means, crime or cheating the system.
No way they could have a job, like maybe a hospital doctor, or possibly be third third generation Irish, like were born and grew up here maybe, like Paul McGrath's children. Absolutely no way at all.
Sur them darkies are getting millions from social welfare and crime and sending it all back home. They don't know how to work or swim. Always scamming somehow. They can't even speak our language without making mistakes and having funny accents. If I had to learn another language, apart from Gaeilge, (which I'm not very good at because of the way it was thought in school), I would be much better than them.
There is zero racism in Ireland either. We are a nation of fair minded, god fearing, righteous folk, and don't let me hear anyone saying otherwise, especially those coloureds with the downright cheek to drive a nice car.
This is what my kids keep hearing around my house anyway. I would't want them growing up with the wrong impression or anything.
:rolleyes:0 -
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Yeah. Every time I see a person with a different skin colour to myself, drive and nice car, or have a nice clothes or house, I feel my blood boil.
Of course they came by these things by some nefarious means, crime or cheating the system.
I don't. TBH i rarely think of them at all... just like I wouldn't think much of a white person in such a circumstance.
It's not the foreigners who are doing well that bother me. It's the ones who are still being supported by the State years after arriving that do.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I don't. TBH i rarely think of them at all... just like I wouldn't think much of a white person in such a circumstance.
It's not the foreigners who are doing well that bother me. It's the ones who are still being supported by the State years after arriving that do.
Non Irish born, including those from the UK and US (possibly dark skinned though), pay far more in tax than they claim so no need to worry at all.
If you have a concern about payments being made, by the the state, that are unfair or detrimental to the welfare of the state, why not direct your concern to those managing the state and not the recipients.
Apple were in receipt of a massive billion euro tax break, that is currently in dispute. Are you angry with Apple or the government over this?0 -
Non Irish born, including those from the UK and US (possibly dark skinned though), pay far more in tax than they claim so no need to worry at all.
If you have a concern about payments being made, by the the state, that are unfair or detrimental to the welfare of the state, why not direct your concern to those managing the state and not the recipients.
Apple were in receipt of a massive billion euro tax break, that is currently in dispute. Are you angry with Apple or the government over this?
Completely unrelated to the thread.... but that's the point, isn't it? :rolleyes:0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Completely unrelated to the thread.... but that's the point, isn't it? :rolleyes:
What, that the state is a net beneficiary from foreigners in Ireland, is unrelated to this tread?
Any loopholes in the system that allow the exploitation of the states tax or welfare systems, is the states problem, not the problem of the recipient. Is this the point that is unrelated to the thread?0 -
What, that the state is a net beneficiary from foreigners in Ireland, is unrelated to this tread?
Pretty much. This thread is a rebuttal of the assertion widely advanced, without challenge or much evidence, that Ireland is a hotbed of racism.
I don't resent people coming to Ireland and contributing, which includes many Africans btw, particularly in the health and care sectors. But the thread isn't about them.Any loopholes in the system that allow the exploitation of the states tax or welfare systems, is the states problem, not the problem of the recipient. Is this the point that is unrelated to the thread?
First and foremost it is the state's problem, but people abusing the system through fraud have agency and responsibility for their own actions, as do those who profit from representing them.
In addition the accusation of racism is used to silence any criticism of the status quo, rampant fraudulent exploitation of the system, and push it to the lunatic racist fringe. Events in other countries have clearly shown the danger of this.0 -
CrankyHaus wrote: »Pretty much. This thread is a rebuttal of the assertion widely advanced, without challenge or much evidence, that Ireland is a hotbed of racism.
I don't resent people coming to Ireland and contributing, which includes many Africans btw, particularly in the health and care sectors. But the thread isn't about them.
First and foremost it is the state's problem, but people abusing the system through fraud have agency and responsibility for their own actions, as do those who profit from representing them.
In addition the accusation of racism is used to silence any criticism of the status quo, rampant fraudulent exploitation of the system, and push it to the lunatic racist fringe. Events in other countries have clearly shown the danger of this.
So when the point is, they are contributing, it is deemed not relevant, but the point they are abusing and exploiting the system is? OK. Great. Thanks for letting me know.0 -
So when the point is, they are contributing, it is deemed not relevant, but the point they are abusing and exploiting the system is? OK. Great. Thanks for letting me know.It has found that 16% of Africans living in Ireland are out of work, compared with 4% of people from western European countries.
The employment rate for Africans in Ireland was also very low at 45%, while 66% of Irish nationals were working.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1107/1009164-esri_migrants/
The majority of Africans in Ireland don’t work. How do they get into Ireland only to end up on the dole?0 -
Yeah. Every time I see a person with a different skin colour to myself, drive and nice car, or have a nice clothes or house, I feel my blood boil.
Of course they came by these things by some nefarious means, crime or cheating the system.
No way they could have a job, like maybe a hospital doctor, or possibly be third third generation Irish, like were born and grew up here maybe, like Paul McGrath's children. Absolutely no way at all.
Sur them darkies are getting millions from social welfare and crime and sending it all back home. They don't know how to work or swim. Always scamming somehow. They can't even speak our language without making mistakes and having funny accents. If I had to learn another language, apart from Gaeilge, (which I'm not very good at because of the way it was thought in school), I would be much better than them.
There is zero racism in Ireland either. We are a nation of fair minded, god fearing, righteous folk, and don't let me hear anyone saying otherwise, especially those coloureds with the downright cheek to drive a nice car.
This is what my kids keep hearing around my house anyway. I would't want them growing up with the wrong impression or anything.
:rolleyes:
Thanks for misrepresenting my post in such a crude cartoonish way. It's what I've come to expect. What is being discussed is the stoking of manufactured outrage about the supposed oppression of a group of people in this country who, when the material facts are examined, are actually very privileged. A group of people who have a very high rate of welfare dependency (Ebun Joseph mentioned the figure of 62% unemployment, perhaps to attract sympathy but it had rather the opposite effect). And the appropriation of that group of people of the historical suffering of African-Americans, and using it as a stick to beat us with.
Read this letter to the Irish Times in 2000 by a Nigerian priest
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/nigerians-who-pose-as-refugees-are-doing-a-disservice-to-themselves-and-their-country-1.1259072
"I find it peculiar that those who claim to be fleeing unrest in Nigeria are here, rather than in any of the many stable places in Nigeria, a country many times bigger than Ireland with a population of 126 million. Real refugees can't afford the exorbitant air fares to get here. Most Nigerians in Europe are simply seeking a more comfortable life. A distinction must be made between economic migrants and those seeking asylum from political or religious persecution."
Or this, from 2004 from the Nigerian embassy.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/bogus-nigerian-asylum-seekers-vilifying-country-says-embassy-1.1163524?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fbogus-nigerian-asylum-seekers-vilifying-country-says-embassy-1.1163524
Does this tally with current narrative of oppressed persecuted people who are now the victims of the racist Irish? I don't doubt that there are ignorant dickheads who will make remarks and that is never okay and should never be tolerated. We have equality legislation to prevent people from being discriminated against on the basis of their race. I am genuinely mystified at what more needs to be done apart from us all writhing around in self-loathing because we are white people living in a country which has been the home of white people for thousands of years. There is no critical thinking around this whatsoever and it's pushing opposing views into the margins. This is exactly what has happened in other European countries and the result is the rise of real, actual right wingers. But carry on. I suppose your next dazzling comment will be to quote "They took our jerbs" from South Park.0 -
And another one that annoys me,we are labelled as racist ,a lot of racism in Ireland etc ,yet first thing they do when allowed to stay is send for their entire families ,to avail of our racism? Or our free living..
The Syrian and other Muslim refuges do exactly the same, yet more and more keep getting sent for, if whitey is so bad why come here at all? Are you running from whites or running to whites for safety and shelter?
It's very tiring to see us labelled as such when for a very long time all we have done is help.0 -
marklazarcovic wrote: »And another one that annoys me,we are labelled as racist ,a lot of racism in Ireland etc ,yet first thing they do when allowed to stay is send for their entire families ,to avail of our racism? Or our free living..
The Syrian and other Muslim refuges do exactly the same, yet more and more keep getting sent for, if whitey is so bad why come here at all? Are you running from whites or running to whites for safety and shelter?
It's very tiring to see us labelled as such when for a very long time all we have done is help.
Using "they" is so generalising it's hard to even know where to begin. Have you any idea of life in Syria? What life in a war torn country must be like? To get up and leave everything you've known and be split from your family not knowing whether you'll ever see them again? To arrive in a country and be put somewhere so inhumane as a direct provision centre? Have you ever been to a direct provision centre? Have you ever spoken to a Syrian immigrant?
I would guess not and you just sit on your high horse of white privilege saying how "they" only come here to cheat the white man's system. And then you have the audacity to try and say you are not racist when your comment is so full of over generalising stereotyping0 -
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Hoochiemama wrote: »Using "they" is so generalising it's hard to even know where to begin. Have you any idea of life in Syria? What life in a war torn country must be like? To get up and leave everything you've known and be split from your family not knowing whether you'll ever see them again? To arrive in a country and be put somewhere so inhumane as a direct provision centre? Have you ever been to a direct provision centre? Have you ever spoken to a Syrian immigrant?
I would guess not and you just sit on your high horse of white privilege saying how "they" only come here to cheat the white man's system. And then you have the audacity to try and say you are not racist when your comment is so full of over generalising stereotyping
You're making just as many assumptions as he is.... In fact you asked the questions, and didn't give him any time to respond before you answered for him. That's helpful.
And he's stereotyping.. not foaming at the mouth spouting racist hate filled comments.
High horse of white privilege... and you're complaining about generalisations/stereotypes? :rolleyes:0 -
Thanks for misrepresenting my post in such a crude cartoonish way. It's what I've come to expect. What is being discussed is the stoking of manufactured outrage about the supposed oppression of a group of people in this country who, when the material facts are examined, are actually very privileged. A group of people who have a very high rate of welfare dependency (Ebun Joseph mentioned the figure of 62% unemployment, perhaps to attract sympathy but it had rather the opposite effect). And the appropriation of that group of people of the historical suffering of African-Americans, and using it as a stick to beat us with.
I thought we were discussing casual, everyday, racism. They kind of ingrained racism that makes people subconsciously think cheat, when the see a foreigner in a nice car.
Imagine if instead people thought, fair play to you, you have obviously worked hard and overcome a lot to be achieving so much in a foreign country. More power to you. And more power to the state for facilitating you having a better life.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »And he's stereotyping..
Stereotyping is a form of racism. Racism is not just KKK guys burning crosses or police men murdering black men. Racism is subtle and systemic as well - which is what people of colour in Ireland are trying to get across the last few days0 -
Plenty of casual racism directed towards 'white' Eastern Europeans living in Ireland too, the kind of lovely racism 'Paddy' experienced in the UK for years and still does. "A sure it's only a bit of fun Paddy".0
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yeah and i doubt paddy gave 2 ****s and complain about being oppressed in london either, got on with life and worked hard the vast majority.0
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Hoochiemama wrote: »Stereotyping is a form of racism. Racism is not just KKK guys burning crosses or police men murdering black men. Racism is subtle and systemic as well - which is what people of colour in Ireland are trying to get across the last few days
Yes stereotyping all white people of having privilege is a form of racism. What type of privilege did the tens of thousands of white working class girls groomed and raped by non whites have?
Please elaborate as to their privelige.0 -
"MASI demands the end of direct provision, the right to work and education, and opposes deportation"
"MASI demands an end to direct provision, the right to work and education, residency for all in the system, and an end to the brutal deportation regime"
This is nothing less than a charter for the complete dismantlement of Ireland's immigration system.
Essentially they want anyone who rolls up at Dublin Airport arrivals to have full access to the fruits of the Irish economy and welfare state from day 1.
There is a conversation to be had about Direct Provision and our immigration system, but these folks are loons and I wouldn't be indulging their flights of fancy (though many on the left will I'm sure).0 -
Hoochiemama wrote: »Stereotyping is a form of racism. Racism is not just KKK guys burning crosses or police men murdering black men. Racism is subtle and systemic as well - which is what people of colour in Ireland are trying to get across the last few days
Then almost everyone on boards is a racist because stereotypes and generalisations abound on these forums.
Personally, I find it to be a bit rubbish. There are heaps of stereotypes put around about Irish people, many of which I encounter abroad. They're not hurtful because I know they're not specific to me, and typically, are out of date conceptions.
Giving out about such is just seeking to be offended over everything... It's impractical to think that stereotypes or generalisations are going to disappear. They merely shift over time to cover other aspects of observations.
Genuine racism which consists of active discrimination, hatred, or violence is wrong, and shouldn't be tolerated. This expansion of racism to cover everything that might be perceived as negative is horribly overly sensitive.,, fine, if you're in a homogeneous population, but anywhere there are many racial or cultural groups, it's a recipe for creating friction.0 -
Clarence Boddiker wrote: »Yes stereotyping all white people of having privilege is a form of racism. What type of privilege did the tens of thousands of white working class girls groomed and raped by non whites have?
Please elaborate as to their privelige.
What??? Im not even dignifying this with an answer0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Then almost everyone on boards is a racist because stereotypes and generalisations abound on these forums.
Personally, I find it to be a bit rubbish. There are heaps of stereotypes put around about Irish people, many of which I encounter abroad. They're not hurtful because I know they're not specific to me, and typically, are out of date conceptions.
Giving out about such is just seeking to be offended over everything... It's impractical to think that stereotypes or generalisations are going to disappear. They merely shift over time to cover other aspects of observations.
Genuine racism which consists of active discrimination, hatred, or violence is wrong, and shouldn't be tolerated. This expansion of racism to cover everything that might be perceived as negative is horribly overly sensitive.,, fine, if you're in a homogeneous population, but anywhere there are many racial or cultural groups, it's a recipe for creating friction.
Yeah I actually agree. Everyone is in a way racist, me included. I dont exclude myself from racism or white privilege. I'll never understand how it feels to be a POC or an immigrant. That is a ****ing privilege that part of me is glad to have!
Good for you that you dont let the Paddy generalisation get to you. I dont either. I agree with you, I feel its so outdated that is doesnt even have an impact on me.
But you cant not allow others voice how they feel and how what is thought of them generally impacts them. This is how change happens! That is how we grow and evolve as humans. That is how we develop greater levels of empathy
Thats all I'm sayin! :-)
Im not here to say you are wrong or im wrong, just a general discussion! And yep, I hold my hand up, I made a generalisation earlier with my high horse of white privilege comment0
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