Bullet for Reds

dto001

Hi Lads,

I have a quick question. I usually shoot fallow and use Fedral Fusion bullets 150G in .308 and have had no issues with these dropping deer on the spot either neck shot or boiler house.
Last season i got a bit of red deer shooting and go a nice pricket and a hind. Now both deer were shot in the boiler house bang on for the pricket and about an inch high for the hind but still did a lot of damage to her lungs.
The issue was both deer ran at least 100 yards before dropping and the hind actually dropped and got up again I actually thought I'd completely F*$ked up the shot (which as she didn't drop I did).
Do you reckon the bullet is wrong for Reds A more experienced hunter I know reckons 150g could be too high and passing straight through I've never had any issues with Fallow and these bullets?
Any ideas?

Cheers

cookimonster

I predominantly shoot Sika, followed up by Hybids and then a handfull of Fallow and the occasional Red. I've successfully shot all four with 100gr 243, 130gr .270 and 150gr 30-06. All are ineffective on all the deer if ineffectively applied. But Sika are the toughest of the bunch and can soak up a body shot like a champ, running quite a distance before crashing. On the contrary I've dropped reds in thier tracks with boiler room shots with the old .243. Different species have different stamina levels but I have found (my practical experience) a higher lung shot drops them quicker then a dedicated heart shot. But importantly IMO, is wheather or not the deer are spooked prior to the shot. When I mean spooked, I mean alert at any degree to potential harm. This will definitely gear them up to flight no matter what calibre or grain of bullet into the vitals (unless head or neck shooting).

At the moment I'm using either Federal 130gr .270 soft points or Sako 30-06 150gr Hammerheads soft points. I was sceptical of them at first (Sako), thinking they may have been too tough and not deform as needed and pass through with a minimal wound channel. Several chest / shoulder shots out beyound 200 yards proved me wrong.



Above a Sako 150gr 30-06 bullet taken from under the hide of a large European Red that quatered from a forward shoulder shot out to the rear of the off side rib cage at 220+ yards. Animal droped on the spot with both lungs obliterated. The same bullet with complete pass throughs leave a good wound channel and a quick bleed out, excellent blood trail if needed for tracking.

Of course when the conditions are right a good solid neck shot will drop them all.

Cass

I found i had runners with soft points so i moved to BT a few years back and haven't had an issue. I found it wasn't the bullet size/weight, but the design of the SP which mushroomed and could pass through. I also used 180gr SP in my 30-06 and had similar results.

I then used 178gr A-Max in the 308, which is listed as technically a target round, but boy did they work. After dropping an animal and opening them up i found a small entry wound and immediate fragmenting of the round. It left little damage on the inside and if i inspected the "opposite" side of the chest cavity there were little to no marks from the round. Seems to dump all energy on impact without destroying the meat.

178s are scare to the point of not being available so i moved to 150gr in Hornady sticking with BT and this year have Fiocchi 150gr EPN with Winchester bullets, which i haven't tried but am hoping they're as good.

Vegeta

I don't personally shoot a .308 but my brother does and similar story and experience to Cass, he now tries to exclusively use ballistic tip ammo.

zeissman

I lost two animals last year with soft points in my 308.
I also switched to the amax bullets only I used 155 grain.
I had the exact same results as cass. Small entry wound, good damage to the internals but no damage on the far side.

clivej

Another vote for the Hornady AMax ammo.
I was using Federal Fusion and had good kills but not good expansion and many pass throughs.

Now using AMax 155gr at 2750fps. Head, neck and heart/lung shots are all good kills.

AMax 155gr recovered in the skin on far side of a heart/lung shot Fallow Buck.




20200324_193414.jpg

cookimonster

As a matter of interest how many here would favour either one of the following scenarios. Elaborate if needed on your experience.

Note: Broadside chest shot behind the shoulder / leg wheather heart or high lung. Between 150 - 200 yards

A. Pass through, more or less complete bullet well expanded, good weight retention.

B. Entry wound and bullet disintegration, little or no weight retention and no exit hole.

cookimonster

clivej wrote: »

Another vote for the Hornady AMax ammo.
I was using Federal Fusion and had good kills but not good expansion and many pass throughs.

Now using AMax 155gr at 2750fps. Head, neck and heart/lung shots are all good kills.

AMax 155gr recovered in the skin on far side of a heart/lung shot Fallow Buck.




20200324_193414.jpg

This was quite common with .243 soft points at closer ranges be them Remies, Federal or Gecco

clivej

cookimonster wrote: »

As a matter of interest how many here would favour either one of the following scenarios. Elaborate if needed on your experience.

Note: Broadside chest shot behind the shoulder / leg wheather heart or high lung. Between 150 - 200 yards

A. Pass through, more or less complete bullet well expanded, good weight retention.

B. Entry wound and bullet disintegration, little or no weight retention and no exit hole.

Has to be 'B' for me.
With this bullet all the energy has gone into the animal with a big wound and great Hydrostatic shock to the animal. Giving "subtle damage in neural tissues" and/or "rapid incapacitating effects" in living targets.

With bullet 'A' the pass through could miss a vital organ and not give that quick clean kill we want to give the animal.

zeissman

A lot of the stuff I would read would say bullet type A would be the best choice but from my own experience I had better results with type B.
If shooting elk or moose and other large game bullet type A may be the better choice but for the type of deer we hunt in Ireland I think type B is better

cookimonster

I've no personal experience with ballistic tip ammo in any form. I have always used some form of soft points or on the odd occasion hollow points.
However I do hunt with lads that use SST and to be honest with the amount of deer we shoot there's much of a muchness regards thier application and effectiveness. We both get runners, we both get DRT and we both get various degrees of meat damage depending on point of impact and path of bullet.

What I have seen particularly with some form of balistic tip is colossal meat damge especially when the point of impact is in solid muscle. As I said above I have also seen animals clearly hit in the vitals run a good distance regardless of the effect of the bullet.

There is no 'magic bullet ' and there are far too many variables when out after live quarry to determine wheather one type is better than another. If one works good for you then stick with it as inevitably your hunting style and situation will be relatively consistent.

Re the now age old argument of wheather or not hydrostatic shock is a myth still battles on. Countless numbers of scientific papers have been published etc on the subject. I believe that some of the confusion comes about from the need of police agencies to have bullets that were capable of stopping a bad guy but at the same time not endangering innocent bystanders. This lead to the concept of anchoring the bad guy on the spot when the bullet dumped its energy. This was not the original idea, rather the need to stop the bullet for passing through.
Hunting rounds for larger game on the other hand were intended on the whole to cause a wound channel that allows bleeding as well as destruction of tissue and bone depending on the point of impact. A good size entry and exit wound will aid bleeding and cause a sucking wound in the chest cavity.

I believe that advancements in bullet construction have solved many problems with tipped bullets breaking up prematurely and now allow for better penetration and controled expansion in order to achieve maximum effectiveness. It is interesting to look at balistics gel visuals, but I question the distance that many of these are shot at and the overall density / depth of the block. Very few experiments take into consideration the actual make up of an aniimals anatomy ie- hide/tissue/bone/tissue/cavities/tissue .....

cookimonster

The effect of Hornady .308 150 gr InterLock® SP

https://youtu.be/Xe6DRZOnx2M

The effect of a .308 150gr Hornady SST bullet on ballistic gel. 

https://youtu.be/osNWIP7tg3Y

Notice the retention on both bullets, with the SST leaving more shrapnel in the far side of the block then the soft point.

DogfoxCork

sako 150gn supper hammerheads for me

daithi55

if you go into eastern europe where all they shoot are red deer and wild boar.. not to many people favour the 308 for the job.. for the exact reason you say..

Grizzly 45

daithi55 wrote: »

if you go into eastern europe where all they shoot are red deer and wild boar.. not to many people favour the 308 for the job.. for the exact reason you say..

Also and more like ,the .308 is a US caliber,and a relative newcomer to the European hunting scene,and there are plenty of heavier and older cals in Europe to do the job.

cookimonster

The 9.3×62 Mauser is a classic European calibre used in double and bolt action rifles throwing a 220 plus grain bullet with a free recoil just over that of a 30-06 that is used for all manner of game found on the continent. Magnums like the 7mm Remington Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum and other configurations don't nessesraly replace the 9.3 for power rather for thier flat shooting balistics that limits the 9.3 to sub 300 yard usable range.

A few interesting article's on bullet choice versus game for these long days-

https://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide1.htm

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm

Richard308

cookimonster wrote: »

The 9.3×62 Mauser is a classic European calibre used in double and bolt action rifles throwing a 220 plus grain bullet with a free recoil just over that of a 30-06 that is used for all manner of game found on the continent. Magnums like the 7mm Remington Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum and other configurations don't nessesraly replace the 9.3 for power rather for thier flat shooting balistics that limits the 9.3 to sub 300 yard usable range.

A few interesting article's on bullet choice versus game for these long days-

https://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide1.htm

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm

All data is relative, bigger lump of lead more energy and more forgiving on your point of impact, less likely to be a runner, but where do you stop? 50bmg to guarantee a kill. It’s all relative, Buffalo taken with an arrow. I use ballistic tips as opposed to soft points. But shot placement is the key, if you boiler room shoot muscles and brain can still function until there’s no oxygen to the brain and muscles. Head shooting deer increases your likelihood of a good kill. Or high neck shoot, increased likelihood of no runner. Carotid artery, spinal chord, oesophagus, etc.
in summary many a deer has fallen to a 22lr bullet in the USA. I wouldn’t agree with it. But shot placement is the key, caliber just helps in maximizing the damage to negate a poorly placed shot.

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

All data is relative, bigger lump of lead more energy and more forgiving on your point of impact, less likely to be a runner, but where do you stop? 50bmg to guarantee a kill. It’s all relative, Buffalo taken with an arrow. I use ballistic tips as opposed to soft points. But shot placement is the key, if you boiler room shoot muscles and brain can still function until there’s no oxygen to the brain and muscles. Head shooting deer increases your likelihood of a good kill. Or high neck shoot, increased likelihood of no runner. Carotid artery, spinal chord, oesophagus, etc.
in summary many a deer has fallen to a 22lr bullet in the USA. I wouldn’t agree with it. But shot placement is the key, caliber just helps in maximizing the damage to negate a poorly placed shot.

It's a question of age of the cartridge design.The 9.3 Mauser and the like are originally black powder rounds,where the idea was what you dont make for in speed ,make up for in weight going down range.Up to the point where you have old massive elephant guns,like 4 bore Rodda or a .50 Jacobs for dropping elephants and rihnos,and breaking a few collar bones and shoulders no doubt as well. These European calibers survived into the 20the century in Europe due to pouplarity and being reproved to nitro,but they are still old slowpokes to some of the more modern calibers.
What 's your choice? A slow lump of lead going down range,or a light fast bullet with plenty of whomp,that will proably shatter once it hits in the target? 150 grain Winchester silver tip JHP.308 has done anything I've asked for reds asround here.

If you have had a proper heart shot,you'll know it.The animal will literally rear up on it's rear legs,and maybe drop there and then,or run no more than 50 meters from your shot.You will find it as there is no way it will go further,the pump is gone,and there is nothing feeding the brain anymore,bar some adrenaline in the brain.

Markhor

The 9.3 Mauser was never a black power cartridge it was developed by Otto Bock of Berlin and designated 9.3x62.

I have used this cartridge extensively, its a great medium bore for animals up to 2000 pounds weight and is widely used in Europe for wild boar and red deer with 286 grain bullets.

I have shot many animals up to 350 yards with the 9.3, higher velocity cartridges are not needed if you use the 9.3 with a BDC scope.

Anybody doing a lot of red deer shooting at extended ranges would be well served with one of the 300 magnums or the European 8x68 S.

Grizzly 45

Not necessarily the 9.3X62 Mauser.But the original 9. whatever was developed well back in the late 19th century as a BP round.It is the most common chambering for antique Drillings made before the advent of Nitro rounds,and you will find many of them re proofed to Nitro rounds. Even our common or garden Brennecke 12 slug was a BP round originally.

Grizzly 45

Markhor wrote: »

.

Anybody doing a lot of red deer shooting at extended ranges would be well served with one of the 300 magnums or the European 8x68 S.

Good question...What do folks consider average distances here to achive a clean kill?

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It's a question of age of the cartridge design.The 9.3 Mauser and the like are originally black powder rounds,where the idea was what you dont make for in speed ,make up for in weight going down range.Up to the point where you have old massive elephant guns,like 4 bore Rodda or a .50 Jacobs for dropping elephants and rihnos,and breaking a few collar bones and shoulders no doubt as well. These European calibers survived into the 20the century in Europe due to pouplarity and being reproved to nitro,but they are still old slowpokes to some of the more modern calibers.
What 's your choice? A slow lump of lead going down range,or a light fast bullet with plenty of whomp,that will proably shatter once it hits in the target? 150 grain Winchester silver tip JHP.308 has done anything I've asked for reds asround here.

If you have had a proper heart shot,you'll know it.The animal will literally rear up on it's rear legs,and maybe drop there and then,or run no more than 50 meters from your shot.You will find it as there is no way it will go further,the pump is gone,and there is nothing feeding the brain anymore,bar some adrenaline in the brain.

50 yards is enough to lose an animal if they make it to the brush

Grizzly 45

Practise tracking skills.:)

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Practise tracking skills.:)

Not much you can track at dusk with light fading on a winters evening in the pissing rain. I spend my time practicing shooting so I don’t have to track and they drop on the spot..... 🎀 drop

Mellor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not necessarily the 9.3X62 Mauser.But the original 9. whatever was developed well back in the late 19th century as a BP round.

9.3x74, Rimmed equivilent in Germany form older BP round

I right I

Richard308 wrote: »

in summary many a deer has fallen to a 22lr bullet in the USA.

You mean 22 cal, as in: 223, 22-250, 220 swift, and the like.

Big difference.

Mellor

I right I wrote: »

You mean 22 cal, as in: 223, 22-250, 220 swift, and the like.

Big difference.

I'm pretty sure he knows the difference and meant to write what he did.

clivej

I right I wrote: »

You mean 22 cal, as in: 223, 22-250, 220 swift, and the like.

Big difference.

A few years back now I was talking to a farmer in Kerry who told me they shot many a deer with a .22lr rfile. Had to get up close

Richard308

I right I wrote: »

You mean 22 cal, as in: 223, 22-250, 220 swift, and the like.

Big difference.

Meant 22lr alright. As I said I wouldn’t agree with it.

Uinseann_16

The 22-250 and .220 swift are extremely effective rounds on deer its all about shot placement everything no matter how big or tough will drop like a ton of bricks if you hit it right
And before someone says the swift isnt enough gun WDM Bell was fond on it for red deer and im sure theres very few men alive who are experienced as he was

cookimonster

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

The 22-250 and .220 swift are extremely effective rounds on deer

Both of these rounds started off as 'varmint' or small game rounds, both then straddled the the fence between vermin shooting and deer hunting. They are, to coin a phrase, amongst some of the most inherently accurate cartridges ever to be commercially produced. This attribute lends itself to thier use on medium to large deer. They are highly effective for neck / head shooting. For those of you who have never seen the damage done by something as small as a 55g 22-250 round on the neck of a Sika or Hybrid, it is something the akin of liquefied black current jelly. I have never seen as much damage as that with other rounds. So yes they will take deer and do so at average stalking ranges be it in the wood or on open hill.
The .22 loop hole helped plug the hole, calibre wise, when Irish deer stalkers lost thier larger calibre rifles during the troubles. Interestingly enough most flocked back to the larger calibres when the milestone court case was won.
Even the beloved .243. that in my opinion rightly sits on the fence between varminter and deer slayer, orginaly started its life out as a varmint calibre, but soon found favour with youth shooters and individuals who didn't need a 'long range deer calibre' or heavier recoil.
Large calibre size and power should not be confused with accuracy and range. Only taking into consideration modern ammonition, i.e. 100 years give or take a decade, tradtional straight walled cartridges, as used in lever action rifles, served their purpose very well as woodland / brush deer calibres were ranges are often less then 100 yards and even considerably less. Stretch those distances out beyound what most experienced hunters knew were it's limit then accuracy, trajectory and energy on target fell below what was needed to take an animal cleanly.
When the hunting conditions change to open farmland and pastures then the bullet changed, not nessesraly the calibre. More powder, more efficent cases and efficent bullets gave better accuracy, range and killing power. In reality the evolutionary development of some of the big game cartridges (medium deer to Elk size) within the same calibre only stretches the realistic range and energy exponentially to the previous cartridge. So if you compare 30-30 to 300Win Mag both using thier optimal bullet grains and standard loading, shooting to thier respective maximum point blank  ranges (using thr average size of deer vitals), the 30-30 maxs out at 200 yards while the WinMag keeps going out to 300 yards max. In between those two are the 308 and 30-06 both throwing 150gr bullets would have MPBR of 275 yrds / 285yrds respectively.

Now before anyone says it, yes the bigger cartridge and load behind the 30 calibre do allow for bigger bullets to be used and all the positives they have with aerodynamics / punch or lighter bullets to zing down range with an even flatter trajectory and thus longer ranges. But this is about as equal comparisons as I can make with realistic information. The same argument can be said as to the use of reliable balistic reticles, balistic apps/computers, range finders, weather stations etc etc.
To coin another phrase lets keep it 'common man', the average Joe can't out shoot his rifle, has average glass on top and may or may not carry a range finder. If there are some that carry a 26 inch barrel, with a Hubble style telescope on top and all the relevant hard ware and knowledge to make a cold bore shot out to 1000 yards on a animal well fair play, but most of us are in the ha'penny place.

To end up and to give my answer to Grizzs' question-

Good question...What do folks consider average distances here to achive a clean kill?

I would suggest the following :

1. Know the average size of the vital area of your quarry.
2. Know the Maximum Point Blank Range of your calibre based on the average vital area size.
3. Practice and realise your ability to shoot within the above.

If you can consistently group within these parameters then your at a starting point.
The effect of wind and terrian is another story all together, but like the above if you are going to step out in all sorts of weather on all sorts of terrian, then be prepared to understand how to deal with it.

Grizzly 45

Richard308 wrote: »

Not much you can track at dusk with light fading on a winters evening in the pissing rain. I spend my time practicing shooting so I don’t have to track and they drop on the spot..... �� drop

Got a scent tracking dog?Youre supposed to have one as a qualified stalker.

Mellor

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

And before someone says the swift isnt enough gun WDM Bell was fond on it for red deer and im sure theres very few men alive who are experienced as he was

The fact that few are as experience or as good as he was is precisely why it's not a suitable caliber for the average person.

Richard308

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Got a scent tracking dog?Youre supposed to have one as a qualified stalker.

Is that the way? Where does it outline that requirement may I ask? I cannot remember having to put in type of dog in my dhl application. I must have missed that part. I better ring the npws get them to hold my application until I attach a picture of my dog. ;-)

kunekunesika

Average distance for me tends to be less than 200. Any further than 100/150ish and I'll try to stalk in and reduce the distance if its easily possible. Beyond 200 and I'll even crawl, which doesn't come naturally to me. I, ll also consider whether I using sticks or bipod. I only using a rangefinder, nó turrets or calculators.
The best range is the one that works well for you.

Vizzy

Richard308 wrote: »

Is that the way? Where does it outline that requirement may I ask? I cannot remember having to put in type of dog in my dhl application. I must have missed that part. I better ring the npws get them to hold my application until I attach a picture of my dog. ;-)

Oh deer (pun intended), most stalkers in the country are now operating outside their "qualifications":eek:

cookimonster

Mellor wrote: »

The fact that few are as experience or as good as he was is precisely why it's not a suitable caliber for the average person.

The small bit, infinitesimal, that I have read of him, would also strongly suggest that not only was he a prolific hunter and a crack shot, he was also a shrewd buisness man who kept very detailed accounts of financial out goings on his commercial safaris.
He endeavoured to get the best value per penny out of his equipment and his time. Purchasing rifles and ammonition that efficiently and effectively took his quarry with as little over expenditure as possible. I would suspect that he would have quickly dumped the 7x57 or 303 if he felt that he was not getting the financial returns needed.
His belief in smaller more manageable calibres would endear him to the likes of Jack O'Connor while the likes of Elmer Keith, a proponent of using large caliber rifles, may not of seen eye to eye.
W. D. M. Bell was indeed a legend and if only half of what was written was indeed factual he was an amazing individual who was larger then life.

Grizzly 45

Vizzy wrote: »

Oh deer (pun intended), most stalkers in the country are now operating outside their "qualifications":eek:

Do the DHS /HCAP?Small bit about having a dog .
Belive it is also part of your agreement with Coilte,should you have a let too,or wwas.

Also,if you are taking shots that you know are going into dusk and bad weather conditions or both....Well .

DogfoxCork

lord! please close and banish this thread to the depths!