Bullet for Reds

I predominantly shoot Sika, followed up by Hybids and then a handfull of Fallow and the occasional Red. I've successfully shot all four with 100gr 243, 130gr .270 and 150gr 30-06. All are ineffective on all the deer if ineffectively applied. But Sika are the toughest of the bunch and can soak up a body shot like a champ, running quite a distance before crashing. On the contrary I've dropped reds in thier tracks with boiler room shots with the old .243. Different species have different stamina levels but I have found (my practical experience) a higher lung shot drops them quicker then a dedicated heart shot. But importantly IMO, is wheather or not the deer are spooked prior to the shot. When I mean spooked, I mean alert at any degree to potential harm. This will definitely gear them up to flight no matter what calibre or grain of bullet into the vitals (unless head or neck shooting).

At the moment I'm using either Federal 130gr .270 soft points or Sako 30-06 150gr Hammerheads soft points. I was sceptical of them at first (Sako), thinking they may have been too tough and not deform as needed and pass through with a minimal wound channel. Several chest / shoulder shots out beyound 200 yards proved me wrong.

Above a Sako 150gr 30-06 bullet taken from under the hide of a large European Red that quatered from a forward shoulder shot out to the rear of the off side rib cage at 220+ yards. Animal droped on the spot with both lungs obliterated. The same bullet with complete pass throughs leave a good wound channel and a quick bleed out, excellent blood trail if needed for tracking.

Of course when the conditions are right a good solid neck shot will drop them all.

Cass

I found i had runners with soft points so i moved to BT a few years back and haven't had an issue. I found it wasn't the bullet size/weight, but the design of the SP which mushroomed and could pass through. I also used 180gr SP in my 30-06 and had similar results.

I then used 178gr A-Max in the 308, which is listed as technically a target round, but boy did they work. After dropping an animal and opening them up i found a small entry wound and immediate fragmenting of the round. It left little damage on the inside and if i inspected the "opposite" side of the chest cavity there were little to no marks from the round. Seems to dump all energy on impact without destroying the meat.

178s are scare to the point of not being available so i moved to 150gr in Hornady sticking with BT and this year have Fiocchi 150gr EPN with Winchester bullets, which i haven't tried but am hoping they're as good.

Vegeta

I don't personally shoot a .308 but my brother does and similar story and experience to Cass, he now tries to exclusively use ballistic tip ammo.

zeissman

I lost two animals last year with soft points in my 308.
I also switched to the amax bullets only I used 155 grain.
I had the exact same results as cass. Small entry wound, good damage to the internals but no damage on the far side.

clivej

Another vote for the Hornady AMax ammo.
I was using Federal Fusion and had good kills but not good expansion and many pass throughs.

Now using AMax 155gr at 2750fps. Head, neck and heart/lung shots are all good kills.

AMax 155gr recovered in the skin on far side of a heart/lung shot Fallow Buck.

Attachment not found.

As a matter of interest how many here would favour either one of the following scenarios. Elaborate if needed on your experience.

Note: Broadside chest shot behind the shoulder / leg wheather heart or high lung. Between 150 - 200 yards

A. Pass through, more or less complete bullet well expanded, good weight retention.

B. Entry wound and bullet disintegration, little or no weight retention and no exit hole.

clivej wrote: »

Another vote for the Hornady AMax ammo.
I was using Federal Fusion and had good kills but not good expansion and many pass throughs.

Now using AMax 155gr at 2750fps. Head, neck and heart/lung shots are all good kills.

AMax 155gr recovered in the skin on far side of a heart/lung shot Fallow Buck.

Attachment not found.

This was quite common with .243 soft points at closer ranges be them Remies, Federal or Gecco

clivej

cookimonster wrote: »

As a matter of interest how many here would favour either one of the following scenarios. Elaborate if needed on your experience.

Note: Broadside chest shot behind the shoulder / leg wheather heart or high lung. Between 150 - 200 yards

A. Pass through, more or less complete bullet well expanded, good weight retention.

B. Entry wound and bullet disintegration, little or no weight retention and no exit hole.

Has to be 'B' for me.
With this bullet all the energy has gone into the animal with a big wound and great Hydrostatic shock to the animal. Giving "subtle damage in neural tissues" and/or "rapid incapacitating effects" in living targets.

With bullet 'A' the pass through could miss a vital organ and not give that quick clean kill we want to give the animal.

zeissman

A lot of the stuff I would read would say bullet type A would be the best choice but from my own experience I had better results with type B.
If shooting elk or moose and other large game bullet type A may be the better choice but for the type of deer we hunt in Ireland I think type B is better

I've no personal experience with ballistic tip ammo in any form. I have always used some form of soft points or on the odd occasion hollow points.
However I do hunt with lads that use SST and to be honest with the amount of deer we shoot there's much of a muchness regards thier application and effectiveness. We both get runners, we both get DRT and we both get various degrees of meat damage depending on point of impact and path of bullet.

What I have seen particularly with some form of balistic tip is colossal meat damge especially when the point of impact is in solid muscle. As I said above I have also seen animals clearly hit in the vitals run a good distance regardless of the effect of the bullet.

There is no 'magic bullet ' and there are far too many variables when out after live quarry to determine wheather one type is better than another. If one works good for you then stick with it as inevitably your hunting style and situation will be relatively consistent.

Re the now age old argument of wheather or not hydrostatic shock is a myth still battles on. Countless numbers of scientific papers have been published etc on the subject. I believe that some of the confusion comes about from the need of police agencies to have bullets that were capable of stopping a bad guy but at the same time not endangering innocent bystanders. This lead to the concept of anchoring the bad guy on the spot when the bullet dumped its energy. This was not the original idea, rather the need to stop the bullet for passing through.
Hunting rounds for larger game on the other hand were intended on the whole to cause a wound channel that allows bleeding as well as destruction of tissue and bone depending on the point of impact. A good size entry and exit wound will aid bleeding and cause a sucking wound in the chest cavity.

I believe that advancements in bullet construction have solved many problems with tipped bullets breaking up prematurely and now allow for better penetration and controled expansion in order to achieve maximum effectiveness. It is interesting to look at balistics gel visuals, but I question the distance that many of these are shot at and the overall density / depth of the block. Very few experiments take into consideration the actual make up of an aniimals anatomy ie- hide/tissue/bone/tissue/cavities/tissue .....

The effect of Hornady .308 150 gr InterLock® SP

https://youtu.be/Xe6DRZOnx2M

The effect of a .308 150gr Hornady SST bullet on ballistic gel.

https://youtu.be/osNWIP7tg3Y

Notice the retention on both bullets, with the SST leaving more shrapnel in the far side of the block then the soft point.

DogfoxCork

sako 150gn supper hammerheads for me

daithi55

if you go into eastern europe where all they shoot are red deer and wild boar.. not to many people favour the 308 for the job.. for the exact reason you say..

daithi55 wrote: »

if you go into eastern europe where all they shoot are red deer and wild boar.. not to many people favour the 308 for the job.. for the exact reason you say..

Also and more like ,the .308 is a US caliber,and a relative newcomer to the European hunting scene,and there are plenty of heavier and older cals in Europe to do the job.

The 9.3×62 Mauser is a classic European calibre used in double and bolt action rifles throwing a 220 plus grain bullet with a free recoil just over that of a 30-06 that is used for all manner of game found on the continent. Magnums like the 7mm Remington Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum and other configurations don't nessesraly replace the 9.3 for power rather for thier flat shooting balistics that limits the 9.3 to sub 300 yard usable range.

A few interesting article's on bullet choice versus game for these long days-

https://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide1.htm

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm

cookimonster wrote: »

The 9.3×62 Mauser is a classic European calibre used in double and bolt action rifles throwing a 220 plus grain bullet with a free recoil just over that of a 30-06 that is used for all manner of game found on the continent. Magnums like the 7mm Remington Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum and other configurations don't nessesraly replace the 9.3 for power rather for thier flat shooting balistics that limits the 9.3 to sub 300 yard usable range.

A few interesting article's on bullet choice versus game for these long days-

https://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide1.htm

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm

All data is relative, bigger lump of lead more energy and more forgiving on your point of impact, less likely to be a runner, but where do you stop? 50bmg to guarantee a kill. It’s all relative, Buffalo taken with an arrow. I use ballistic tips as opposed to soft points. But shot placement is the key, if you boiler room shoot muscles and brain can still function until there’s no oxygen to the brain and muscles. Head shooting deer increases your likelihood of a good kill. Or high neck shoot, increased likelihood of no runner. Carotid artery, spinal chord, oesophagus, etc.
in summary many a deer has fallen to a 22lr bullet in the USA. I wouldn’t agree with it. But shot placement is the key, caliber just helps in maximizing the damage to negate a poorly placed shot.

Richard308 wrote: »

All data is relative, bigger lump of lead more energy and more forgiving on your point of impact, less likely to be a runner, but where do you stop? 50bmg to guarantee a kill. It’s all relative, Buffalo taken with an arrow. I use ballistic tips as opposed to soft points. But shot placement is the key, if you boiler room shoot muscles and brain can still function until there’s no oxygen to the brain and muscles. Head shooting deer increases your likelihood of a good kill. Or high neck shoot, increased likelihood of no runner. Carotid artery, spinal chord, oesophagus, etc.
in summary many a deer has fallen to a 22lr bullet in the USA. I wouldn’t agree with it. But shot placement is the key, caliber just helps in maximizing the damage to negate a poorly placed shot.

It's a question of age of the cartridge design.The 9.3 Mauser and the like are originally black powder rounds,where the idea was what you dont make for in speed ,make up for in weight going down range.Up to the point where you have old massive elephant guns,like 4 bore Rodda or a .50 Jacobs for dropping elephants and rihnos,and breaking a few collar bones and shoulders no doubt as well. These European calibers survived into the 20the century in Europe due to pouplarity and being reproved to nitro,but they are still old slowpokes to some of the more modern calibers.
What 's your choice? A slow lump of lead going down range,or a light fast bullet with plenty of whomp,that will proably shatter once it hits in the target? 150 grain Winchester silver tip JHP.308 has done anything I've asked for reds asround here.

If you have had a proper heart shot,you'll know it.The animal will literally rear up on it's rear legs,and maybe drop there and then,or run no more than 50 meters from your shot.You will find it as there is no way it will go further,the pump is gone,and there is nothing feeding the brain anymore,bar some adrenaline in the brain.

Markhor

The 9.3 Mauser was never a black power cartridge it was developed by Otto Bock of Berlin and designated 9.3x62.

I have used this cartridge extensively, its a great medium bore for animals up to 2000 pounds weight and is widely used in Europe for wild boar and red deer with 286 grain bullets.

I have shot many animals up to 350 yards with the 9.3, higher velocity cartridges are not needed if you use the 9.3 with a BDC scope.

Anybody doing a lot of red deer shooting at extended ranges would be well served with one of the 300 magnums or the European 8x68 S.

Not necessarily the 9.3X62 Mauser.But the original 9. whatever was developed well back in the late 19th century as a BP round.It is the most common chambering for antique Drillings made before the advent of Nitro rounds,and you will find many of them re proofed to Nitro rounds. Even our common or garden Brennecke 12 slug was a BP round originally.

Markhor wrote: »

.

Anybody doing a lot of red deer shooting at extended ranges would be well served with one of the 300 magnums or the European 8x68 S.

Good question...What do folks consider average distances here to achive a clean kill?

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It's a question of age of the cartridge design.The 9.3 Mauser and the like are originally black powder rounds,where the idea was what you dont make for in speed ,make up for in weight going down range.Up to the point where you have old massive elephant guns,like 4 bore Rodda or a .50 Jacobs for dropping elephants and rihnos,and breaking a few collar bones and shoulders no doubt as well. These European calibers survived into the 20the century in Europe due to pouplarity and being reproved to nitro,but they are still old slowpokes to some of the more modern calibers.
What 's your choice? A slow lump of lead going down range,or a light fast bullet with plenty of whomp,that will proably shatter once it hits in the target? 150 grain Winchester silver tip JHP.308 has done anything I've asked for reds asround here.

If you have had a proper heart shot,you'll know it.The animal will literally rear up on it's rear legs,and maybe drop there and then,or run no more than 50 meters from your shot.You will find it as there is no way it will go further,the pump is gone,and there is nothing feeding the brain anymore,bar some adrenaline in the brain.

50 yards is enough to lose an animal if they make it to the brush

Practise tracking skills.:)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Practise tracking skills.:)

Not much you can track at dusk with light fading on a winters evening in the pissing rain. I spend my time practicing shooting so I don’t have to track and they drop on the spot..... ðŸŽ€ drop

Mellor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not necessarily the 9.3X62 Mauser.But the original 9. whatever was developed well back in the late 19th century as a BP round.

9.3x74, Rimmed equivilent in Germany form older BP round

I right I

Richard308 wrote: »

in summary many a deer has fallen to a 22lr bullet in the USA.

You mean 22 cal, as in: 223, 22-250, 220 swift, and the like.

Big difference.

Mellor

I right I wrote: »

You mean 22 cal, as in: 223, 22-250, 220 swift, and the like.

Big difference.

I'm pretty sure he knows the difference and meant to write what he did.

clivej

I right I wrote: »

You mean 22 cal, as in: 223, 22-250, 220 swift, and the like.

Big difference.

A few years back now I was talking to a farmer in Kerry who told me they shot many a deer with a .22lr rfile. Had to get up close

I right I wrote: »

You mean 22 cal, as in: 223, 22-250, 220 swift, and the like.

Big difference.

Meant 22lr alright. As I said I wouldn’t agree with it.

Uinseann_16

The 22-250 and .220 swift are extremely effective rounds on deer its all about shot placement everything no matter how big or tough will drop like a ton of bricks if you hit it right
And before someone says the swift isnt enough gun WDM Bell was fond on it for red deer and im sure theres very few men alive who are experienced as he was