Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No crime in Munster or Leinister? Big claim.

Is there a border in the world that doesn't have smuggling problems? Getting rid of a border would wipe out so much activity...it's not rocket science is it?

A lot of the problem along the border is that a blind eye is turned to smuggling...indeed it is suggested that part of the UK's Brexit solution would be to turn even more of a blind eye to it.

Look what happened in the Quinn case, a blind eye was turned to serious criminal activity for years until a man got kidnapped and savagely beaten.

Maybe the Quinn thugs thought they were "soldiers" so you shoukd be OK with that - or is it only a war if Uncle Gerry says it is

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Maybe the Quinn thugs thought they were "soldiers" so you shoukd be OK with that - or is it only a war if Uncle Gerry says it is

Are you capable of debate or is it just a vehicle for snide inaccurate commentary?

I was never 'ok' with the conflict/war here. Nether the cause or the acts carried out during it.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you capable of debate or is it just a vehicle for snide inaccurate commentary?

I was never 'ok' with the conflict/war here. Nether the cause or the acts carried out during it.

OK genuinely surprised by this. Had thought you were dedicated Sinn Fein IRA supporter and cheerleader. Must be confusing you . Aplogies

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Just more abuse and bile Randy. It would be like trying to have a debate with one of Oliver Callan's caricatures rather than the politician he is having a swipe at.

Stereotyping is not factual portrayal.

Jog on Francie , stop crying . These are facts. You just have a huge problem with facts and reality

It’s people like you and your mentality, is why your county of Monaghan is a kip . Total denial of everything

Debate ? What would you know about that ? You barely can spell the word “fact” never mind knowing what the word means

Ya really haven’t a clue

Having no “swipe” at politicians actually , if you could read . It clearly argues that the people of said counties, the private sector , are sitting in their holes and doing nothing, all expecting the government to do it for ya .

Randy Archer

Truthvader wrote: »

No interest in a United Ireland one way or the other but open to some of the arguments here. However already this thread is evidencing the trickle of toxic thinking particular to the criminlised leadership in Northern Ireland

Have to laugh at the talk of multinationals investing. How do you think the Quinn Group investors are reporting their experiences - and thats only near the border.

If Sinn Fein were to get near power their crazy adolescent economic policies would see no multinational come near the place. And thats before the criminal underbelly is considered

Sure the Irish stock market has a **** attacked the Monday after the elections. Why ? Mary Lou, that’ a Sunday evening, when the results were clear ; that ff or FG would be part of Any future government - wee Mary lost the run of herself claiming that she would seek for form government without either - despite numbers being clear that this was not possible and the independents were mostly more FF/FG inclined than the looney left

Randy Archer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No crime in Munster or Leinister? Big claim.

Is there a border in the world that doesn't have smuggling problems? Getting rid of a border would wipe out so much activity...it's not rocket science is it?

A lot of the problem along the border is that a blind eye is turned to smuggling...indeed it is suggested that part of the UK's Brexit solution would be to turn even more of a blind eye to it.

Look what happened in the Quinn case, a blind eye was turned to serious criminal activity for years until a man got kidnapped and savagely beaten.

What criminal gangs are attacking members of companies in Leinster or Munster ?

Even by your piss poor standards, that whataboutery is pretty weak

Smuggling ? We are talking about locals acting like paramilitary kidnapping members of boards of companies that came in to ensure the company doesn’t fall, because your hero ****ed **** up. Who were they Francie ? Know any of the cowboys ?

Blind eye ? that would be the locals, on both sides of the border loyal to the Quinn family. Funny, that wee Sean junior was happy with the border to dodge arrest by Southern authorities when it suited

Blaming the border for that ? Lol, leave it out !

Girls on Moore St never needed much borders to sell their dodgy cigarettes

Getting rid of the border ha ha ha . Oh dear . Criminal gangs don’t worry about borders. Kinahan and do have no problem smuggling in drugs by the sea . They don’t go around kidnapping business men though

Foreign investors watch what happened with the Quinn group and go “**** that” It’s you and your pals talking about how I would get more investment in a UI . You trying to suggest that in the space of 3 hours , the PSNI And Gardai Had any reason that a crime was being committed (kidnap of a businessman ) and wouldn’t respond Or try ? That a border was the reason ?

You can go back to crying about being abused now , you are done

FrancieBrady

Randy Archer wrote: »

What criminal gangs are attacking members of companies in Leinster or Munster ?

Even by your piss poor standards, that whataboutery is pretty weak

Smuggling ? We are talking about locals acting like paramilitary kidnapping members of boards of companies that came in to ensure the company doesn’t fall, because your hero ****ed **** up. Who were they Francie ? Know any of the cowboys ?

Blind eye ? that would be the locals, on both sides of the border loyal to the Quinn family. Funny, that wee Sean junior was happy with the border to dodge arrest by Southern authorities when it suited

Blaming the border for that ? Lol, leave it out !

Girls on Moore St never needed much borders to sell their dodgy cigarettes

Getting rid of the border ha ha ha . Oh dear . Criminal gangs don’t worry about borders. Kinahan and do have no problem smuggling in drugs by the sea . They don’t go around kidnapping business men though

Foreign investors watch what happened with the Quinn group and go “**** that” It’s you and your pals talking about how I would get more investment in a UI . You trying to suggest that in the space of 3 hours , the PSNI And Gardai Had any reason that a crime was being committed (kidnap of a businessman ) and wouldn’t respond Or try ? That a border was the reason ?

You can go back to crying about being abused now , you are done

The Gardai didn't make an arrest in 8 years of crimes and intimidation in the Quinn case. FACT

If I were an investor I'd be asking why has the area been abandoned by the enforcers of the law?

You also make my point for me...'is there no crime elsewhere in the country' by mentioning the Kinahan's. There are also, major crime gangs elsewhere in the country, it isn't just a border phenomenon and never has been.

Try and stay in the realms of fact and reality Randy.

efanton

a very cool kid wrote: »

On the trimming thing - it's likely the synergy redundancies would be applied to people who come out of workforce and straight into social welfare - think mainly natural attrition - early retirement mainly, unions will not allow a pile of up front redundancies (remember the HSE when former has none for merged admin roles).

On things being cheap - on the wrong side of Brexit and with a currency change inflation would be rampant up there. The workforce is not quite as attractive as in ROI (less educated generally, less integrated with US Corp culture for a start. You need to remember it took about 20 years of trying to get the multinational sector to take off with high end jobs in the ROI - It would be similar up there.

On pensions I'm a little lost. ROI pays pensions in a pay as you go basis - is the UK not the same? We would still be liable for these to be fuded/pair one way or another?

Pensions as stated in my original post should not be a problem at all. The British government has collected pension contributions for decades.
They would have basically three choices.
1. They transfer the pension reserves they have previously collected from Northern Ireland to the Irish government,
2. they make a yearly contribution to the Irish government commensurate withe the contributions they have previously collected and according to the number of people who were already retired when a United Ireland came into being,
3. or they simply decide that they will hold on to these funds and continue paying pensions for those that were on a pension before a United Ireland came into being.

Currency exchange issues?
You do realise in a United Ireland there would be a single currency.

I think you are trying to create problems that simply will not be there.

The biggest issue that is unknown is how much would the actual transition of services and absorption of the various government departments in Northern Ireland cost. No doubt there will be substantial funding from the EU and UK for this, but I would imagine there still going to be a very hefty cost for the Irish government. Having said that the transition will take years to take effect, so any cost although great would be spread over a long period.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Gardai didn't make an arrest in 8 years of crimes and intimidation in the Quinn case. FACT

If I were an investor I'd be asking why has the area been abandoned by the enforcers of the law?

You also make my point for me...'is there no crime elsewhere in the country' by mentioning the Kinahan's. There are also, major crime gangs elsewhere in the country, it isn't just a border phenomenon and never has been.

Try and stay in the realms of fact and reality Randy.

Truth is the state on both sides of the border had to turn a blind eye to criminal elements on both sides and abadonned working class areas to the local hard men on both sides. Plus had to release Gerry McCabes killers and pretend the Mexicans robbed the Northern Bank. The price of peace. The Kevin Lunney thing was just part of the hidden cost nice professional people rarely have to pay

Edgware

Randy Archer wrote: »

Say tired claims but it never happens (not an attack on you btw )

There will be no change , until the peace walls are taken down and SF and loyalist cop on and work for the community as a whole . Sure we have Unionists now playing silly buggers because a Shinners had their ra funeral akin to the travellers down in Limerick, while Covid is on. That will take a few weeks of gestures and fist thumping in the desk ...while ordinary people are ignored

No one likes the nordies , never mind Blighty. Yes, Westminster will push them under a bus if push comes to shove but then you have to convince Southerners if we want that **** show , we don’t , not right now

Nordies are probably going to come out of it alright. Stay within the U.K. but get some special status in the eurozone, best of both worlds . Threat of violence is real (From both loyalist and Republicans ) and level heads in Dublin, London and Brussels don’t want to be dragged into that

If Cavan and co haven’t been developed , despite multiple high profile Ministers and Tainiste, by the South, you are tripping balls thinking a UI would change things.

Ha come off it, places like Donegal ,and to a lesser extent Cavan, are barely suited to raise sheep ... very little agriculture development can be done up there .

Don’t be relying on State to always do everything for ye. Where’s the big money people setting up big Agri business ? Surely Sean Quinn would have spotted opportunity in his rather vast fiefdom of Ulster , if the Viable opportunities had existed

Industrial ? Lol. Again, come off of. Donegal actually LOST several key industries - textile, Pharmaceuticals during the boom of 1995-2005

As for tourism, anyone who went to Letterkenny during the Fleadh Ceoils of 2005 to 2006 know withstand they couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery - which is odd as the night life is something they could do (before judge Zaidan) . It was bit of a disaster actually, and for some odd reason, the council refused to work with Failte Ireland to promote the thing , like every other town . Those two weekends were just a slightly bigger typical boozy weekend in Letterkenny of that time (which was actually good ) Feck all promotion of the actual cultural aspect of the festival . Just a piss up . There was and is very little to do up there bar drinking (again, night life is good ) so no surprise that they didn’t have repeat visitors thereafter

I recall vividly during the fleadhs In other towns , how local business Letterkenny lost the run of themselves. No lying, some of them genuinely believed that they’d be able to even rent out their ****ing garden fronts to campers and people would stay in tents ! (Very limited hotel rooms at the time and apartments ) In 2005 , when people have cars and notions ... I had a good few nights slagging them off about that later . For some odd reason the local central near the hospital ordered crates of bog roll ... (he swore that there’d be huge camp sites around the town )

Chip vans ordered a shed load of stock but forgot to get the special licences needed - I had pointed out to one girl that they better check that out (I’d been familiar with fleadhs elsewhere ) She normally didn’t need to do her business in the town centre itself - when these subtleties were pointed out to her and she was asked where on earth did she think was going to have hoards of people come up the road just for her chips (she had a Van near to the hospital around glen car Inn area ) she wasn’t happy ...two weeks later she’s whinging in the local papers on how the fleadh didn’t go well for her ...

Still, Donegal did better with the recent hosting of the Irish Open (golf) Likewise, they did a decent job of the car rallies back in the day

It has a long long long way to go to beat off Kerry and Galway

Donegal has its mountains and even its beaches . It’s not always freezing up there , yet , it lags behind attracting tourism for **** all reason. Hell, were it not for Wee Danny O’Donnell’s traditional annual tea party in his home area for all the biddies of Ireland .... there wouldn’t have been much going on

You don’t need a United Ireland to improve tourism . Never did ! Crap excuse

What’s up in dreary Cavan and Monaghan to attract tourism , that’s not fishing (A good reason to go to Cavan btw) , for anyone , who can go elsewhere in the country ? Feck all

Christ Longford managed to beat off other counties for that new holiday resort ... were the Cavan boys in bed ?

I cant recall the referendum you organised to establish the views of the Southerners but all I can see from you is a complete lack of vision and initiative.

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Truth is the state on both sides of the border had to turn a blind eye to criminal elements on both sides and abadonned working class areas to the local hard men on both sides. Plus had to release Gerry McCabes killers and pretend the Mexicans robbed the Northern Bank. The price of peace. The Kevin Lunney thing was just part of the hidden cost nice professional people rarely have to pay

This 'abandonment' thing is a myth. The area (I live in it) is policed like all other areas of the state. It's not bandit country or lawless like those under pressure to explain like to claim.

The security forces of the state paid no attention to certain criminal activities but had no problem going after other ex IRA people who had turned to crime. The 'price of peace' didn't come into it then.

Why that was and why it happened in divisions of the Gardai that have other issues of national significance is still open to speculation.

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This 'abandonment' thing is a myth. The area (I live in it) is policed like all other areas of the state. It's not bandit country or lawless like those under pressure to explain like to claim.

The security forces of the state paid no attention to certain criminal activities but had no problem going after other ex IRA people who had turned to crime. The 'price of peace' didn't come into it then.

Why that was and why it happened in divisions of the Gardai that have other issues of national significance is still open to speculation.

Oh the old, bandit territory exists alright, the border hopping criminals use it all the time.
The Lunney case, the atm robberies the lordship credit union robbery, the fuel laundering etc.
Of course normal life goes on around it too and only a tiny few are involved in it, but the border area is pretty much a hotbed of criminal activity.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This 'abandonment' thing is a myth. The area (I live in it) is policed like all other areas of the state. It's not bandit country or lawless like those under pressure to explain like to claim.

The security forces of the state paid no attention to certain criminal activities but had no problem going after other ex IRA people who had turned to crime. The 'price of peace' didn't come into it then.

Why that was and why it happened in divisions of the Gardai that have other issues of national significance is still open to speculation.

Don't know what ex (or current) IRA people the state actually went after. Certainly not Bobby Storey who ended his miserable days cossetted in a cosy bed being cared for by a state whose citizens he devoted his life to murdering, not the killers of Paul Quin, Robert McCartney or Joe Rafferty - and sure the ones we did catch (Garda McCabes killers) had to be let go because Gerry and the lads would only agree to stop killing if they were let off.

No idea at all what your final sentence means and indeed it may not be accessible to any meaning at all. Is it meant to be some kind of dark hint that the Guards are "up to something"?

Truthvader

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Oh the old, bandit territory exists alright, the border hopping criminals use it all the time.
The Lunney case, the atm robberies the lordship credit union robbery, the fuel laundering etc.
Of course normal life goes on around it too and only a tiny few are involved in it, but the border area is pretty much a hotbed of criminal activity.

Now now now. you forgot again, Slab ah er .... sorry Mr Murphy is what? come come ? what is he? come on boys think. No no no

Thomas 'Slab' Murphy is "a very typical rural man" and "very nice", according to Sinn Féin's Mary Lou McDonald.

Nothing to see here move along now

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Oh the old, bandit territory exists alright, the border hopping criminals use it all the time.
The Lunney case, the atm robberies the lordship credit union robbery, the fuel laundering etc.
Of course normal life goes on around it too and only a tiny few are involved in it, but the border area is pretty much a hotbed of criminal activity.

Some of it carried out with impunity and some of it not. Why is that? 8 years they were intimidating and commiting crime around the Quinn affair...nothing, In comes a higher power in the Gardai, suddenly things start happening. Why was that?

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

Don't know what ex (or current) IRA people the state actually went after. Certainly not Bobby Storey who ended his miserable days cossetted in a cosy bed being cared for by a state whose citizens he devoted his life to murdering, not the killers of Paul Quin, Robert McCartney or Joe Rafferty - and sure the ones we did catch (Garda McCabes killers) had to be let go because Gerry and the lads would only agree to stop killing if they were let off.

No idea at all what your final sentence means and indeed it may not be accessible to any meaning at all. Is it meant to be some kind of dark hint that the Guards are "up to something"?

Want to start trading lists around the country of crimes?

Borders are the cause of smuggling the world over, yes there is a higher incidence of that type of crime here. Most 'normal' states would beef up security forces to cope with it, here we strip out the security forces from the area.

I could take you to several places selling smuggled and laundered fuel, why is it that this goes on and nobody does anything?

RandomViewer

Truthvader wrote: »

Truth is the state on both sides of the border had to turn a blind eye to criminal elements on both sides and abadonned working class areas to the local hard men on both sides. Plus had to release Gerry McCabes killers and pretend the Mexicans robbed the Northern Bank. The price of peace. The Kevin Lunney thing was just part of the hidden cost nice professional people rarely have to pay

Think you are missing part of the puzzle in the Lunny case, main suspect dead, vehicles destroyed in Garda custody, someone with a lot of pull at work here.

a very cool kid

efanton wrote: »

Pensions as stated in my original post should not be a problem at all. The British government has collected pension contributions for decades.
They would have basically three choices.
1. They transfer the pension reserves they have previously collected from Northern Ireland to the Irish government,
2. they make a yearly contribution to the Irish government commensurate withe the contributions they have previously collected and according to the number of people who were already retired when a United Ireland came into being,
3. or they simply decide that they will hold on to these funds and continue paying pensions for those that were on a pension before a United Ireland came into being.

Currency exchange issues?
You do realise in a United Ireland there would be a single currency.

I think you are trying to create problems that simply will not be there.

The biggest issue that is unknown is how much would the actual transition of services and absorption of the various government departments in Northern Ireland cost. No doubt there will be substantial funding from the EU and UK for this, but I would imagine there still going to be a very hefty cost for the Irish government. Having said that the transition will take years to take effect, so any cost although great would be spread over a long period.

In the UK people working now effectively pay the pensions of those who have retired. While pensions are funded through National Insurance there's no built up fund - it's paid out from National Insurance coming in. If the people of NI are not paying into the National Insurance fund, the UK does not have a fund for the retired people in NI.

By currency change I meant the effect of changing from Sterling to Euro in NI. Prices will go up when they switch (same as they did here in 2002). Also bear in mind that NI groceries/consumer goods in a UI - Brexit world will be sourced from the EU so prices there will be the same as down here (NI currently does 10 times more trade with the UK than it does with ROI).

Lastly the EU has changed significantly since 1989. We have 27 countries now and Ireland is among the very richest. It is difficult to see how the like of Romania and Bulgaria (where wages ~800 a month) would allow a heap of funding to subsidise comparatively high salaries in NI. Also given the rise of nationalism in the UK, it's hard to see a Tory government funding reunification - easy to see Ireland being told to "go whistle".

efanton

a very cool kid wrote: »

In the UK people working now effectively pay the pensions of those who have retired. While pensions are funded through National Insurance there's no built up fund - it's paid out from National Insurance coming in. If the people of NI are not paying into the National Insurance fund, the UK does not have a fund for the retired people in NI.

workers have made contributions toward their state pension. Whether the UK government has chosen to spend that money or put it aside is irrelevant.
The simple point is those contributions will either have to be transferred to the Irish government, or The British Government will have to continue to honour the payment of pensions under its own pension scheme.

By currency change I meant the effect of changing from Sterling to Euro in NI. Prices will go up when they switch (same as they did here in 2002). Also bear in mind that NI groceries/consumer goods in a UI - Brexit world will be sourced from the EU so prices there will be the same as down here (NI currently does 10 times more trade with the UK than it does with ROI).

So the people in the North now start paying for their goods in Euro's, what's the issue? They will also be paid in euro's.
If there is a border poll, and the people of the North choose a United Ireland I am absolutely certain this issue will be talked to death, and it will be a choice they make.

The republic does a massive amount of trade with the UK as well. Brexit (even if it goes badly) will not stop the republic from trading with the UK, so again whats the problem?
As it is they are trading under EU rules at the moment so there will be no real change.

Lastly the EU has changed significantly since 1989. We have 27 countries now and Ireland is among the very richest. It is difficult to see how the like of Romania and Bulgaria (where wages ~800 a month) would allow a heap of funding to subsidise comparatively high salaries in NI. Also given the rise of nationalism in the UK, it's hard to see a Tory government funding reunification - easy to see Ireland being told to "go whistle".

Yes the EU has grown. Any funding from the EU will not be allowed to be spent artificially boosting wages any how, that's totally against the EU rules.
None of the EU funding that went to those countries was used to boost wages. Any increase in wages that happened in these countries was a natural consequence of increased trade and prosperity in those countries.

What they will offer funding for is towards the transitional costs of the government merging departments and services, road signage, etc and probably some funding for businesses towards enabling them to adapt EU trade rules and adopting EU standards. This additional funding was also available to all the countries that recently joined the EU. Nothing different there, except that most people never knew that this happens. No doubt the funding will have to be on a larger scale, but as previously stated in my earlier post the EU gave Germany €228 billion for their transition. We potentially will not be getting even a tiny fraction ofthat, but a tiny fraction of that amount i still an awful lot of money.

The EU has already piled in Hundreds of millions into Northern Ireland under its Northern Ireland PEACE programme since the Good Friday Agreement, and some of that money also went to the Irish government.
All those cross border bodies that both the Irish government and the UK government created have been funded by the EU, as well as all the cross border community groups and schemes, and job creation schemes
.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/102/northern-ireland-peace-programme

https://www.seupb.eu/sites/default/files/styles/file_entity_browser_thumbnail/public/PEACE%20Content%20Type/9668%20-%20SEUPB%20The%20Story%20of%20Peace%20D9.pdf

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44295917

https://www.finance-ni.gov.uk/topics/finance/european-funding-2014-2020

They have also stated that they will continue that support in the event of a United Ireland and make additional funding available to help fund the transition.


When the unification of Germany happened the EU gave Germany 3% of the entire EU's GDP. That equates to total EU funding for Germany unification in the 1980's of $228 billion dollars. (that was then, not what that would be worth in today's money).
Now it would be totally ludicrous to think that a United Ireland would get anything near that amount. But it would be reasonably to assume that they would be likely to offer something in the region of a few billion over the transition period, considering that they are heavily invested in Northern Ireland already.

Pkiernan

Don't worry. MLMD is going to tax the rich!

Poor_old_gill

Pkiernan wrote: »

Don't worry. MLMD is going to tax the rich!

Don’t you mean the ‘fat cats’.
Inflammatory language is a staple for SF

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Some of it carried out with impunity and some of it not. Why is that? 8 years they were intimidating and commiting crime around the Quinn affair...nothing, In comes a higher power in the Gardai, suddenly things start happening. Why was that?

Some questionable stuff I admit and there's bad apples on every tree.
As I sad bandit country.

Bishop of hope

Two wrongs don't make a right, but the second wrong has started.
The drum and the flag and the sash will march today amid the virus, cretons.

McMurphy

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Two wrongs don't make a right, but the second wrong has started.
The drum and the flag and the sash will march today amid the virus, cretons.

On the Sabbath

Mortelaro

McMurphy wrote: »

On the Sabbath

They will be heard today, they will congregate practising loudly

McMurphy

Mortelaro wrote: »

They will be heard today, they will congregate practising loudly

So long as they're not forcing their way up a nationalist street, aided and abetted by a supposedly impartial police force, or spitting at little kids and their parents trying to get to their school I have zero problem with their marching, or practising for same.



Let them at it.

Mortelaro

Meanwhile, an outside Police chief has been appointed to investigate the Belfast funeral
This from yesterday's Irish times

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/english-police-chief-to-oversee-storey-funeral-investigation-1.4302526

Bishop of hope

McMurphy wrote: »

So long as they're not forcing their way up a nationalist street, aided and abetted by a supposedly impartial police force, or spitting at little kids and their parents trying to get to their school I have zero problem with their marching, or practising for same.



Let them at it.

The queen's Highway.
Joking aside, that's the deep divisions exposed isn't it really.
Violence is only a turn of a street away at the best of times.

McMurphy

Mortelaro wrote: »

Meanwhile, an outside Police chief has been appointed to investigate the Belfast funeral
This from yesterday's Irish times

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/english-police-chief-to-oversee-storey-funeral-investigation-1.4302526

I would imagine this is why.

Meanwhile, the North’s Police Ombudsman is considering a complaint from a member of the public regarding PSNI action leading up to the funeral.

The PSNI said in a statement: “Until a conclusion is reached on both matters, the Police Service of Northern Ireland will be making no further comment.”

Will anyone be investigating the mourners breaching social distancing guidelines at Garda Horkans funeral btw?

Randy Archer

Bowie wrote: »

I see Haughey got a state one, gun running. Michael Collins, terrorism. DeValera fraud, terrorism...
Do you think having Flanagan near the flag is a farce? I do. Each to his own. Flag belongs to the country.

Haughey was ACQUITTED of those offences ! Gibbons gave contradictory evidence in the Court compared to Dáil Éireann as to whether the shipment was Authorised . More to it between Gibbons and Lynch that meets the eye, they may well have been playing silly games but when the cargo was found that shat themselves

Unlike the Provos , Collins actually had a MANDATE and support of the public, and this was confirmed in the 1920 General Elections and the local elections, and the elections of 1922 . The public across the active counties risked their lives and property to shelter the Flying Columns . The IRA were used as Civic Police and provided security to the Dáil Courts .

While the IRA of Collins time did kill civilians on QUESTIONABLE grounds that they were spies , and innocent bystanders did get caught in the cross fire (Upton Train Station ambush) their track record was nothing remotely compared to the destruction of innocent civilians inflicted by the Provos . Unlike the Provos , the IRA of Collins time primarily targeted RIC, Auxies, British army and Tans. Provos killed more Catholic civilians than they killed Unionist /Loyalist Paramilitaries!

De Valera was in the US for the majority of the Tan War . “Fraud” ...well, history of the Irish Press is dodgy alright but he learned all that skullduggery from Tammany Hall USA

In addition to success in elections, the public knew exactly what the money raised by State bonds was for ...

IRA in Collins time didn’t rob banks or Post Offices either

Comparison to 1916-1921 to Provisos is grossly dishonest , deluded and down right ****ing lies and only spouted by the most depraved headbangers of this country ,to suit their twisted needs . Clearly they were accustomed to dusters being thrown at them in school, if they even bothered going