The Last of Us - HBO *Spoilers* See warning in post #1

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357352#Comment_120357352

And my point is it wouldn't have changed his decision. We are told in the show by Marlene that they know how to make a vaccine from Ellie but it would result in her death. If it resulted in Ellie's death, then it didn't matter if the vaccine would work or not, or even just if Joel didn't believe it would work. The result of everything would have been the same. We can disagree about the certainty of Marlene and the doctor that it would work, or how Marlene should have explained it to Joel, but it doesn't matter. Joel was not going to let Ellie die.

kerplun k

Good show. But man, they really turned Joel into a computer game character in the final 2 episodes. Firstly giving him the heath boost to make a miraculous recovery and then the final fight scene where he just takes out a bunch of soldiers. Both really could have been avoided with an episode between 8 & 9.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357530#Comment_120357530

It may not have changed the decision, but they still can't skip over the part where he actually has a valid decision to make. It is step one and you can't have step two without it.

If they want me to feel anything about Joels decision, if they want me to understand his depth of feeling for Ellie, so deep that he ignores all other choices, then they need to actually have valid choices to ignore. You can't have one without the other.

Instead they neutered the entire theme because he never had a real choice to make.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357405#Comment_120357405

It was a baseball pitch the giraffes were in you could see a scoreboard. Probably escaped from a zoo.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357530#Comment_120357530

We are not ever told by the show that "they know how to make a vaccine" we are told they have a theory on how to make a vaccine that involves killing the world's only immune patient. Never even using in world science does it say it's more than a theory.

It wouldn't have changed Joel's decision and Marlene who was happy to kill an innocent child should have just put a bullet in Joel too. I mean who would have known.

Macy0161

Never even heard of the game, never mind played it, but I thought it was very good without being one I'd really watch again (unlike some other HBO series' that I've watch several times). Regarding Joel - isn't one of the things that makes HBO stuff so good that characters aren't good or bad, rather they have you flip flopping on your opinions of them?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357684#Comment_120357684

Marlene doesn't kill Joel because they owe him a debt for how he managed to get Ellie there. Marlene is ultimately honourable. She's willing to let Joel go, and even though she has that connection and history with Ellie through her mother she knows the sacrifice needs to be made. The cordyceps is around Ellie's brain and there's no way for them to remove it without killing her. I don't think Marlene would allow the doctor to go through with it unless they were as certain as they could be that it would work and there was no other way around it.

An absolutely horrible decision, but I'd disagree that Marlene was happy to kill an innocent child. She also explains to Joel that Ellie hadn't woken up before being prepped for surgery, so they didn't cause her any pain or fear. It's why they didn't wake her up to have a goodbye with Joel or let her make the choice whether she wants to go through with it. That would be a huge thing for Ellie to bear in her final moments/hours. I think from Marlene's perspective, it was better that Ellie didn't have to be faced with that choice.

Neither Marlene nor Joel made the "right" choices or are definitely good/bad. It's a far more complex situation. But Joel made his choices for more selfish reasons than Marlene.

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120356776#Comment_120356776

It's weird how close that was to the game and yet still felt to be missing something.

I really think that the only thing missing when compared to the game was the interactive element.

MOR316

I'm sure Jimmy will get his Bob Ross, Zebra moment in season 2.

Went and bought the game last week. Finished it yesterday. **** Abby!

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357091#Comment_120357091

Never played the game and don't see why it was neccesary to do that.

You don't have to have played the game, but it helps in terms of context and understanding.

BruteStock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357979#Comment_120357979

"Selfishness" has always been the most lazy and basic criticism of Joel and I'll explain to you why.

Imagine a situation if you will where Joel and Ellie are greeted at the facility by Marlene and a bunch of doctors. They convene at the consultancy room and are given a detailed explanation of what has to happen to Ellie. They guarantee Joel and Ellie that her sacrifice will enable a vaccine to be produced. They show them around fully operational laboratories and explain they are working with other scientists and doctors around the country. Etc ect. They give them time to think it over and ultimately leave the choice to Ellie. If she choose yes , and Joel decided no , then that would make him selfish.

Instead it went like this. Joel and Ellie reach the facility are immediately tear gassed. An armed goon then knocks Joel unconscious and imprisons him while Elie is taken away and sedated against her will. Joel wakes up not knowing what the hell is going on. Marlene tells him Ellie is about die because the doctor thinks he can make a vaccine- he thinks it can be a cure Joel. Then she has him frog marched out into the open with just a knife for protection. Remind me how she's honourable again 🤨

So in this situation Joel has no time to process anything. All he knows is Ellie is on the slab ready to be euthanized by some guy he never met for a cure he only "thinks" will work. It isn't selfish to do what he did under those circumstances. Its never an act of selfishness to to want protect your daughter or son.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358158#Comment_120358158

I said Marlene is honourable with regards to not just having Joel killed because "who would know". She owes Joel a debt for him getting Ellie to them. Kill Joel, and any potential problems or payback from Joel, even years down the line, are negated. She lets him go. She was also willing to sacrifice Ellie for the cure despite her promise to Ellie's mother that she'd protect Ellie, because the cure is more important than any of them.

As people have said on the thread, Ellie is the only living person who is immune. They're not just going to kill Ellie based on the doctor just thinking it might work. By the time Joel wakes in the hospital, the doctor has clearly had enough time to examine and do tests on Ellie. "He thinks it can be a cure Joel" is said after she describes the exact reasoning and plan behind the procedure and how it would result in a cure. So yes, they're not fully sure, but it's clear they're certain enough that Marlene allows them to go ahead with it, even though it means Ellie's death (which isn't an easy thing for Marlene to allow given her history with Ellie's mother and her promise to keep Ellie safe).

So again, it comes down to the point that Joel would have made the same decision he did regardless of whether Marlene tells him they think the cure will work, or it will definitely work. Joel's decision isn't based on the vaccine, it's based on Ellie.

MOR316

Deleted

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358252#Comment_120358252

Marlene had every opportunity to reproduce the circumstances that lead to Ellie being immune, but it's always easier to sacrifice others. She was a woman of reasonably young age, she could have done the same thing and produce an immune child herself.

bucketybuck

They're not just going to kill Ellie based on the doctor just thinking it might work.

That is literally what they are going to do.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358378#Comment_120358378

Are you suggesting she should have gotten pregnant women (or become pregnant herself), gotten them bitten by an infected while they were giving birth (not knowing what the time before the umbilical cord is cut helps lead to the immunity), and would have resulted in the death of the mother (or herself)? Not to mention that they didn't know Ellie was immune until she was bit, so there's only been a few months since the start of the show, not long enough for a pregnancy. Even then, it would have resulted in the death of the mother, and then the death of the baby as well.

Sorry but that's just ridiculous. Ellie's immunity came from an incredible mix of circumstances, and was something nobody even knew about until Ellie was bitten and didn't turn. There's no way they could have recreated the same circumstances without any of them even having been there to witness the circumstances, and it would have resulted in more deaths than it would to kill Ellie to make the vaccine from her.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358453#Comment_120358453

There's a difference between an educated doctor/surgeon "thinking" it might work based on the tests they did on Ellie and what he'd be able to do with the chemical markers they can make from the sample of cordyceps in Ellie's brain, and someone just saying "I think this might work"

They would not risk killing the only living immune person based on "I think this might work". There is a level of uncertainty in everything, and Marlene is convinced enough to let them do this which will kill Ellie, even though she promised Ellie's mother, her friend, that she'd take care of her and keep her safe.

Maybe they'd discover after doing it that the cure only works on specific people, or before a certain age etc. But they wouldn't know any of that without first being able to produce the vaccine, and to do that they would have to do the surgery which would kill Ellie.

It still doesn't change the fact that Joel would make the same decision.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358594#Comment_120358594

The difference between a doctor and a desperate doctor in a post apocalyptic world are very different too.

Given all the nutbags, fascists and rapist cannibals do you trust a "doctor" who's first instinct is to cut out her brain ?

Cordell

The only thing that doctor could be sure of was that they will keep him alive by any means until he does it. So of course he did convince them it will work.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358594#Comment_120358594

If you think they could have any worthwhile level of certainty after about 2 hours of basic tests then I don't know what to say to you.

I'd love to know what tests they did in a few hours, all done without leaving a mark on Ellie by the way, that gave them enough surety to risk killing the one single immune person they had, the one person their entire hope was based upon.

Its scientific and medical idiocy of the highest order, absolute lunacy that deserves to be rejected.

You keep repeating that Joel would have made the same decision. It seems you cannot grasp that there was no reasonable decision to be made, because only a **** idiot would sit back and allow that to happen.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358625#Comment_120358625

Even Joel knows enough from what Marlene said to recognise that the cordyceps is around the brain. It's how he figures that the surgery they're planning would kill her.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358629#Comment_120358629

Now you're just stretching and making stuff up. They would still need a doctor, and if anything his life would be in more danger from them if he killed the one person in the entire world who was immune (and someone Marlene has a personal connection to) without believing strongly enough that it would work. There's no indication that his life was in any danger from the Fireflies.

bucketybuck

To put it a different way. Of course Joel would always make the same decision. Because there was only one reasonable decision to make.

And because there was only one reasonable decision, making it says nothing about his motivations or the implications towards anybody else.

Its a failure of screenwriting that neutered their own goal.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358684#Comment_120358684

There's no indication that his life was in any danger from the Fireflies.

I never said from Fireflies in particular, but his life, along with everyone's life, was in danger. How do you get the best protection you can get in that situation? You become indispensable. You're the only one who can 100% do it. You can't ignore his lack of ethics and his conflict of interest when he claimed he could do it.

NattyO

I've never played (or even heard of) the game, so came to this with no expectation or foreknowledge.

In general, thought it was quite good, though with a few Walking Dead-sized plot holes - the most obvious being Marlene (I think that's her name) talking about how tough and resourceful Joel is, then sending him out, knowing how desperate he would be to save Ellie, with just two guys. Surely she would, at the very least, have handcuffed him, or sent more guys with him, or brought him off miles away while he was still unconscious.

The scene with the giraffes had me puzzled, as it made little sense, but I see from here it was probably done to keep game fans happy.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358594#Comment_120358594

The exhaustive tests they conducted in about 15 minutes? The doctor absolutely jumped the gun with vivisection there should have been months of testing done on Ellie.

SortingYouOut

More please

Slydice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120355435#Comment_120355435

Ah that's so cool! She did great in this!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120359363#Comment_120359363

Did really look like she could be Bella's mother too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120359378#Comment_120359378

Agree. We did wonder for a while if we were looking at a flash forward or a flashback.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358747#Comment_120358747

I don't understand why some people's brains are stuck on the giraffes. They probably escaped from a zoo 20 years ago and have been knocking around ever since, living off the land which has become overgrown, and breeding in the wild. It's entirely plausible.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360694#Comment_120360694

I think people are more so questioning why the giraffe scene is important, especially as many who played the game consider it an important story moment.

The scene is important because it helps Ellie start to snap out of how distant she became after what happened with David. It's a small moment of joy and excitement, and beauty, especially to Ellie as someone who was born into the post-outbreak world. It helps Ellie and Joel both reflect on the journey they've had and how it's coming to an end, and think about what happens next (thinking the Fireflies will just do some tests and take blood samples or whatever and then they'll go back to Jackson). It's also important for Joel as he's truly looking at Ellie as a daughter, and getting to help her experience something like that, like a parent taking the child to a zoo, is something he's longed for.

It's just a small, personal moment between them, before they talk about what comes next, if Ellie wants to go through with it or just leave, Ellie reflecting on how important seeing the journey through is as it could lead to a cure and how everything they went through can't just be for nothing. That also shows us that if the Fireflies had woken Ellie up and gave her the choice to go ahead with the surgery or not, she would have.