General British politics discussion thread

Joe_ Public

This whole email thing looks like a job for Fancy Bears. They should just rip up the ministerial code over there, it's entirely meaningless the way they are carrying on.

https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1409440243640635396?s=20

Joe_ Public

"Turnout estimated at 70 per cent
The polls have now closed, and turnout has been estimated at 70% - significantly higher than the last elections in Batley and Spen."

Interesting from the local Examiner live website in Yorkshire. If that's accurate, it would represent a very unusually high turnout for a by election, even surpassing the 2019 vote. Dunno what that would mean exactly though labour sources all but conceding defeat according to newsnight. Been very ugly campaign up there.

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

"Turnout estimated at 70 per cent
The polls have now closed, and turnout has been estimated at 70% - significantly higher than the last elections in Batley and Spen."

Interesting from the local Examiner live website in Yorkshire. If that's accurate, it would represent a very unusually high turnout for a by election, even surpassing the 2019 vote. Dunno what that would mean exactly though labour sources all but conceding defeat according to newsnight. Been very ugly campaign up there.

A simple explanation is that the weather in Yorkshire was apparently lovely today. Clear blue skies and warm and sunny all day.

Joe_ Public

Strazdas wrote: »

A simple explanation is that the weather in Yorkshire was apparently lovely today. Clear blue skies and warm and sunny all day.

That definitely helps but 70% still seems a lot. Like, you'd maybe expect a lot of disillusioned lab voters just to stay at home and keep turnout low but that doesn't immediately suggest it. Some suggestions that the figure only relates to postal votes which would make sense. Just have to wait and see really.

O'Neill

The only way for Labour to survive in my opinion is to join an alliance with other parties. Clive Lewis said something similar.

Joe_ Public

Incredible result really, given the share of the vote Galloway got. Kim Leadbeater was always a good candidate but i was worried she might not even come second. Reprieve for Keir Starmer.

https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1410816754423566341?s=20

Tyrone212

Mad how so many voted for that Galloway idiot. A dodgy man.

Joe_ Public

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Mad how so many voted for that Galloway idiot. A dodgy man.

And he's taken to Trumpian ranting about the integrity of the vote and ordering inquiries now. Actually i think the joke might very well be on him because as much as he would have taken votes off labour, i think it's very likely he took as many if not more potential votes away from the tories. Hard to say for sure as there's obviously a big protest vote in the constituency that won't vote any mainstream party, but backfired big time on him anyway.

ArmaniJeanss

Great result for Labour obviously, though winning under fptp with the result being 35%, 34%, 22% re-highlights the ridiculous flaws in that system. And because Labour won it will do little to convince them of the merits of other systems.

4/1 was widely available yesterday, I didn't see that result coming unfortunately.

Presumably it will ease the pressure on KS for the short-term, although the opposition should never be losing their own seats in by-elections anyway. But after all the negativity it will almost be regarded as a gain rather than a hold.

I wonder who'll be blamed by the Conservatives, Matt Hancock I guess.

Nody

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Great result for Labour obviously, though winning under fptp with the result being 35%, 34%, 22% re-highlights the ridiculous flaws in that system. And because Labour won it will do little to convince them of the merits of other systems.

I'm not so sure Labour won as much as Tory lost if that makes sense. I don't think it was Labour that delivered a victory through a superior and consistent message as much as Tories managing to lose the election through the affair being blasted in papers, a certain politician doing a Trump impression etc.

Obviously Labour and leadership team will trump it as proof that things are turning around etc. but I'd not count on the seat in the next GE to stay Labour.

ancapailldorcha

Nody wrote: »

I'm not so sure Labour won as much as Tory lost if that makes sense. I don't think it was Labour that delivered a victory though a superior and consistent message as much as Tories managing to lose the election through the affair being blasted in papers, a certain politician doing a Trump impression etc.

Obviously Labour and leadership team will trump it as proof that things are turning around etc. but I'd not count on the seat in the next GE to stay Labour.

I'd agree with this. The margin is so thin that the leadership should be treating this as a loss IMO. This was Jo Cox's seat and to win it by a whisker like this with a government this jingoistic in power is an embarrassment.

Joe_ Public

Kim Leadbeater won that i think. Being Jo Coxs sister obviously helped but she came across really well too and campaigned on local issues with a lot of success. In a field of 16 i think it was, she was the only local candidate. Compare and contrast with the useless candidate they fielded in hartlepool. don't know what the tory strategy was, their guy was a bit invisible, didn't do interviews, i learned nothing about him. Think they thought Galloway would do the work for them or something. It's a relief for labour but no great euphoria in it, government losing by elections is just really getting back to normality.

breezy1985

Looking at this election and the last few its crazy how many far right and loopy conspiracy parties England has

Joe_ Public

breezy1985 wrote: »

Looking at this election and the last few its crazy how many far right and loopy conspiracy parties England has

Thing about fptp is people rightly say it keeps smaller parties from having any chance of making serious electoral progress, but that also means it largely keeps those fringe elements out too. That's not an endorsement of the voting system, just an observation i believe is true. The best chance those more extreme elements have is by being absorbed by the main parties and trying to exert their influence through them.

Nody

breezy1985 wrote: »

Looking at this election and the last few its crazy how many far right and loopy conspiracy parties England has

And they all lost £500 each as a bonus (all candidates had to put down a £500 deposit which was returned if they got over 5% of the votes).

Sam Russell

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Thing about fptp is people rightly say it keeps smaller parties from having any chance of making serious electoral progress, but that also means it largely keeps those fringe elements out too. That's not an endorsement of the voting system, just an observation i believe is true. The best chance those more extreme elements have is by being absorbed by the main parties and trying to exert their influence through them.

We have seen that already with the ERG takeover of the Tories.

Lemming

Joe_ Public wrote: »

And he's taken to Trumpian ranting about the integrity of the vote and ordering inquiries now. Actually i think the joke might very well be on him because as much as he would have taken votes off labour, i think it's very likely he took as many if not more potential votes away from the tories. Hard to say for sure as there's obviously a big protest vote in the constituency that won't vote any mainstream party, but backfired big time on him anyway.

I am delighted to see that Galloway got egg on his face, given the alleged conduct of his campaign team, attempting to stoke anti-LGBT prejudice. As was pointed out, Kim has to live in the area long after he has departed for another attempt at a seat elsewhere.

Odious, odious little man.

Strazdas

Seems the UK is about to radically alter its Covid policies. Mail on Sunday has an interview with Health Secretary and point out he is radically different to Hancock ; he's anti-lockdown and is all about throwing the country open.

It appears Johnson is going to announce next week the end of nearly all restrictions (including even the wearing of masks) with a big hoopla around "Freedom Day".

dublin49

Boris is a lucky leader,first Co vid takes the sting out of the Brexit disruption.then a successful vaccine roll out gives him cover on an initial disastrous reaction to the Covid threat and then the EU commit a gargantuan gaff on the NI Protocol when his shambolic deal was being exposed and now a successful Euros will lift the national mood and he will bluff and bluster his way to a probable win at the next election,not to mention the convenience of Labours internal travails.

BlitzKrieg

I have noticed because the team is doing so well they are trying to bury any and all talk of criticizing them for kneeling etc from the beginning of the tournament. Got to rapidly put that in the past cause god forbid we have it on record of tory ministers attacking the team that brought football home.

breezy1985

dublin49 wrote: »

Boris is a lucky leader,first Co vid takes the sting out of the Brexit disruption.then a successful vaccine roll out gives him cover on an initial disastrous reaction to the Covid threat and then the EU commit a gargantuan gaff on the NI Protocol when his shambolic deal was being exposed and now a successful Euros will lift the national mood and he will bluff and bluster his way to a probable win at the next election,not to mention the convenience of Labours internal travails.

The Euros are not won yet and the vaccine roll out was not a success at all.

An over reliance on AZ on purely patriotic grounds has actually let other catch up and also let Delta hit hard along with his dodgy decisions on India

dublin49

breezy1985 wrote: »

The Euros are not won yet and the vaccine roll out was not a success at all.

An over reliance on AZ on purely patriotic grounds has actually let other catch up and also let Delta hit hard along with his dodgy decisions on India

I think the general consensus in the UK is they led the way on vaccine rollout and showed the EU up as being to slow to react due to their red tape and bureaucracy.I am not suggesting this perspective is correct ,but i do think its a widely held view,

Strazdas

dublin49 wrote: »

I think the general consensus in the UK is they led the way on vaccine rollout and showed the EU up as being to slow to react due to their red tape and bureaucracy.I am not suggesting this perspective is correct ,but i do think its a widely held view,

There may have been some slowness initially but it was not down to either red tape or bureaucracy - also, there simply weren't enough vaccines being produced in Europe in the first couple of months of the year.

The UK for their part were importing millions of doses as well as producing them and even imported 5m AZ doses from India (which was covered up by their media and was only reported later).

PommieBast

dublin49 wrote: »

I think the general consensus in the UK is they led the way on vaccine rollout and showed the EU up as being to slow to react due to their red tape and bureaucracy.I am not suggesting this perspective is correct ,but i do think its a widely held view,

Yes, and it is a rose-tinted view they will wring the absolute last drop of kudos out of. Maybe I should go into hibernation until 2024 or so when the real sh!t+fan happens..

farmerval

dublin49 wrote: »

I think the general consensus in the UK is they led the way on vaccine rollout and showed the EU up as being to slow to react due to their red tape and bureaucracy.I am not suggesting this perspective is correct ,but i do think its a widely held view,

It's really funny, I work with a couple of English people here and the difference in their attitudes is amazing. One is very sensible, has been here 15 years or so, couldn't believe how stupid Brexit was. Sees Ireland the way most people here do, modern reasonably open society, nice place to live rear family etc.

The other two, (both men) christ, they nearly sing rule Britannia daily. It's annoying and pathetic in equal measures. Early in the vaccinations all we heard was how many vaccines they had administered along with a smirk and query; who many vaccines did Ireland give that week. If something in design comes up their straight in with, well in Britain the standard thing to do is ??? which is automatically assumed way better than any standard here. They literally live their lives in a country that they believe to be inferior in every way to England, but they still live here.

I really can't get my head around it. They keep dropping comments like how much better off we would be if we left the EU too. They are both detested in the office, their attitude is quit amazing, but the really funny part is they come across as quite unhappy? like they know their defending the indefensible but something in them just won't let them see things as they are, only as they want them to be.

devnull

dublin49 wrote: »

I think the general consensus in the UK is they led the way on vaccine rollout and showed the EU up as being to slow to react due to their red tape and bureaucracy.I am not suggesting this perspective is correct ,but i do think its a widely held view,

The Germans will shortly overtake the UK in terms of vaccines given.

Currently Germany is on 75M and the UK 78m, however the Germans have been hovering around a 7 day average of around 750,000 to 850,000 a day when the UK is doing half that and the Germans have had a good few days where they have done over a million a day.

Every criticism in the UK is basically met with the answer 'vaccine' by these Government supporters now. If you saw Kay Burley's interview with the co-chair of the party during the middle o the week you can see that anything is defendable by that, despite the fact they have been overtaken by others in terms of vaccines per day, which suggests a supply issue as I know of some GP surgeries who have not vaccinated anyone for weeks now as they haven't been allocated any vaccines.

Joe_ Public

devnull wrote: »

The Germans will shortly overtake the UK in terms of vaccines given.

Currently Germany is on 75M and the UK 78m, however the Germans have been hovering around a 7 day average of around 750,000 to 850,000 a day when the UK is doing half that and the Germans have had a good few days where they have done over a million a day.

Every criticism in the UK is basically met with the answer 'vaccine' by these Government supporters now. If you saw Kay Burley's interview with the co-chair of the party during the middle o the week you can see that anything is defendable by that, despite the fact they have been overtaken by others in terms of vaccines per day, which suggests a supply issue as I know of some GP surgeries who have not vaccinated anyone for weeks now as they haven't been allocated any vaccines.

Same with pmqs. Every question thrown at johnson on whatever subject is with monotonous regularity batted back with "but but but vaccine roll out "..."We jab and they jabber" etc. As the actual benefits of taking that early gamble are beginning to be evened out, or even exceeded, all his nauseating crowing and evasiveness is doing is exposing what a grim mess almost every other facet of their response has been. Not going to count for a lot if the schools remain in chaos by the autumn as appears a distinct possibility.

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Same with pmqs. Every question thrown at johnson on whatever subject is with monotonous regularity batted back with "but but but vaccine roll out "..."We jab and they jabber" etc. As the actual benefits of taking that early gamble are beginning to be evened out, or even exceeded, all his nauseating crowing and evasiveness is doing is exposing what a grim mess almost every other facet of their response has been. Not going to count for a lot if the schools remain in chaos by the autumn as appears a distinct possibility.

You can see signs of the gaslighting or propagandising of the English public with all this. A successful vaccination programme should not have been used by their media as a weapon to attack the EU or to boost Johnson's popularity. They should just have said "the vaccine programme is going well, good news". It smacks of a dodgy 'regime' with a dictator like figure at the helm.

Joe_ Public

Strazdas wrote: »

You can see signs of the gaslighting or propagandising of the English public with all this. A successful vaccination programme should not have been used by their media as a weapon to attack the EU or to boost Johnson's popularity. They should just have said "the vaccine programme is going well, good news". It smacks of a dodgy 'regime' with a dictator like figure at the helm.

Yeah but then Johnson might actually have to make a stab at answering questions truthfully as opposed to vacillating or just making up lies. Can't be setting dangerous precedents like that, in fairness!

But i think there are signs it's wearing thin, though, Johnson's dismissal of talk about matt hancock as "Westminster bubble" stuff a case in point, they can get complacent like that. Suddenly, all that talk about having an early election to capitalise on the vaccine bounce wouldn't look so appealing to me from a gov perspective. I think they'd lose ground, but to lib dems more than labour.

devnull

devnull wrote: »

The Germans will shortly overtake the UK in terms of vaccines given.

Currently Germany is on 75M and the UK 78m, however the Germans have been hovering around a 7 day average of around 750,000 to 850,000 a day when the UK is doing half that and the Germans have had a good few days where they have done over a million a day.

The population of Germany is some 16 million higher than the UK so of course they'll eventually overtake based on raw numbers, but it is the percentage of vaccinated adult population that matters.


https://www.worldometers.info/population/countries-in-europe-by-population/

#	Country (or dependency)	Population; (2020)	Yearly; Change	Net; Change	Fert. Rate
1	Russia	145,934,462	0.04 %	62,206	1.8
2	Germany	83,783,942	0.32 %	266,897	1.6
3	United Kingdom	67,886,011	0.53 %	355,839	1.8