Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

Tenger

PommieBast wrote: »

Actually enforcing self-isolation would have been a good start. I have done it three times so far and the only checking was an SMS that looked a bit too much like a phishing attack.

I agree. A work colleague is Hungarian. She returned home last summer for a couple of months.
She had to provide evidence of location within a few mins of receiving a text message. This happened on all but 4 days of her isolation. On the other days she was visited by 2 police officers with a soldier accompanying them.


In a similar vein a proper track and trace system could have narrowed down the clusters. Asking for information within the last 48 hours is just window dressing.
And constantly stating “community spread” is just code for “we haven’t got a clue”

Jack1985

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Looks like to me the govt is looking for cover behind the AG because mandatory quarantine for Germany France and the US would be highly damaging politically and economically.

Completely agree. They have zero issue quarantining African or Middle Eastern nations, but good luck doing that to our biggest trading partners. Do we exempt RoRo drivers then from France or what...?

A mess of system. Despite being geographically on an Island, politically we are not and will not be NZ in the short-term.

Blut2

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/legal-concerns-put-the-states-mandatory-hotel-quarantine-in-jeopardy

This is short and worth a listen. The former President of the Law Society of Ireland outlines why there are a number of major legal issues that likely make the proposal unworkable.

Blut2

And, doubleposting, but an even further update this evening:

EU and US travellers set to be excluded from mandatory hotel quarantine -- https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eu-and-us-travellers-set-to-be-excluded-from-mandatory-hotel-quarantine-1.4526399

Looks like all the legal concerns about applying the mandatory hotel quarantine to the EU were proven valid. And not much point in applying it to the US in a few weeks time when almost all adults there will be vaccinated by May anyway.

It'll be interesting seeing the list of countries that were added in the end - presumably very minor ones that had no serious traffic to Ireland anyway, from the sounds of things.

Jack1985

Blut2 wrote: »

And, doubleposting, but an even further update this evening:

EU and US travellers set to be excluded from mandatory hotel quarantine -- https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eu-and-us-travellers-set-to-be-excluded-from-mandatory-hotel-quarantine-1.4526399

Looks like all the legal concerns about applying the mandatory hotel quarantine to the EU were proven valid. And not much point in applying it to the US in a few weeks time when almost all adults there will be vaccinated by May anyway.

It'll be interesting seeing the list of countries that were added in the end - presumably very minor ones that had no serious traffic to Ireland anyway, from the sounds of things.

Car crash from start to finish, reputational damage has been done here too.

Blut2

Jack1985 wrote: »

Car crash from start to finish, reputational damage has been done here too.

Its farcical really. In a well run government the health advice would have been given in private, and rejected by the government in private. No harm, no foul. Instead we had NPHET leaking the advice to the public, our Health Minister publicly agreeing with it, and only subsequently him very publicly being told by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Attorney General that its in no way possible.

The countries to be added has now also emerged, and seems to have no basis in logic:

The countries to be added to the schedule of high risk countries are: the Republic of Albania; the Principality of Andorra; Aruba; the Kingdom of Bahrain; Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba; the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia; the State of Israel; the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan; the Republic of Kosovo; the State of Kuwait; the Republic of Lebanon; the Republic of San Marino; the Republic of Moldova; the Principality of Monaco; Montenegro; the Federal Republic of Nigeria; the Republic of North Macedonia; the Sultanate of Oman; the State of Palestine; the Republic of the Philippines; the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico; the State of Qatar; Saint Lucia; the Republic of Serbia; the Federal Republic of Somalia; he Territory of the Wallis and Futuna Islands.

Nowhere (aside from Ethiopia - but almost all of their PAX were always connecting I believe) with real traffic to Ireland obviously. But then on top of that:

Israel, effectively fully vaccinated, but on the list?

Microstates like San Marino and Monaco, but not Italy and France? How would Irish immigration even know someone had visited one of those?

Places with effectively no covid, like Saint Lucia (7 day average of cases: 11. Not hundred, or thousand, 11) Or Bonaire (last confirmed corona case January 6th, covid-free since)?

etc. Its all just clearly for optics.

Gael23

Israel is in the list despite nearly being at herd immunity

Jack1985

Blut2 wrote: »

Israel, effectively fully vaccinated, but on the list?

Gael23 wrote: »

Israel is in the list despite nearly being at herd immunity

After seeing that list, with Israel on it - I'd like to smoke whatever they are smoking.

NSAman

Blut2 wrote: »

And, doubleposting, but an even further update this evening:

EU and US travellers set to be excluded from mandatory hotel quarantine -- https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eu-and-us-travellers-set-to-be-excluded-from-mandatory-hotel-quarantine-1.4526399

Looks like all the legal concerns about applying the mandatory hotel quarantine to the EU were proven valid. And not much point in applying it to the US in a few weeks time when almost all adults there will be vaccinated by May anyway.

It'll be interesting seeing the list of countries that were added in the end - presumably very minor ones that had no serious traffic to Ireland anyway, from the sounds of things.

Have been away from home for too long at this stage. Exempting UK and USA is crazy, however, numbers where I live are practically zero despite what the press says. 2 infections in the past 30 days.

When I do come home, I will be vaccinated and also be getting the PCR test and isolating too before even getting on an aircraft.

For those that say it's relatively ok to travel, that is where I personally caught COVID was on a flight back from Ireland in early January 2019. Guy behind me was coughing his guts up.

Most people that I know will be vaccinated before travel also. The right thing to do, for all travelling anywhere, is put yourself in your families situation who you are going to see.... can you afford to lose any of them? (I can think of one or two I can... joking!!!). If not vaccinated, if not able to get a PCR, if not able to self isolate when in Ireland.... why would you go?

Widdensushi

NSAman wrote: »

Have been away from home for too long at this stage. Exempting UK and USA is crazy, however, numbers where I live are practically zero despite what the press says. 2 infections in the past 30 days.

When I do come home, I will be vaccinated and also be getting the PCR test and isolating too before even getting on an aircraft.

For those that say it's relatively ok to travel, that is where I personally caught COVID was on a flight back from Ireland in early January 2019. Guy behind me was coughing his guts up.

Most people that I know will be vaccinated before travel also. The right thing to do, for all travelling anywhere, is put yourself in your families situation who you are going to see.... can you afford to lose any of them? (I can think of one or two I can... joking!!!). If not vaccinated, if not able to get a PCR, if not able to self isolate when in Ireland.... why would you go?

Where was the flight from? It was only reported to be in wuhan early January.

Tenger

Widdensushi wrote: »

Where was the flight from? It was only reported to be in wuhan early January.

Well in fairness it was reported to the WHO by the Chinese on Dec 31st. It had been circulating in Wuhan since at least November.

Wuhan was locked down on Jan 23th.
Cases were reported in Italy on 31st January.

L1011

Tenger wrote: »

Well in fairness it was reported to the WHO by the Chinese on Dec 31st. It had been circulating in Wuhan since at least November.

Wuhan was locked down on Jan 23th.
Cases were reported in Italy on 31st January.

Post-dated testing of sewage samples suggest it was in Northern Italy in December 2019

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/italian-sewage-study-suggests-covid-19-was-there-in-december-1.4284597

I did a rail trip through Northern Italy in November 2019, didn't catch anything that I know of at least!

MrMusician18

Blut2 wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/legal-concerns-put-the-states-mandatory-hotel-quarantine-in-jeopardy

This is short and worth a listen. The former President of the Law Society of Ireland outlines why there are a number of major legal issues that likely make the proposal unworkable.

The legal issues are something of a red herring since Austria is already on the list and is an EU state. The real reason is practically, logistically, politically and economically it would be extremely difficult to do.

That said not doing it effectively condemns Ireland to importing the most virulent strains worldwide and the existing quarantine will only slow that down, not stop it.

gral6

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The legal issues are something of a red herring since Austria is already on the list and is an EU state. The real reason is practically, logistically, politically and economically it would be extremely difficult to do.

That said not doing it effectively condemns Ireland to importing the most virulent strains worldwide and the existing quarantine will only slow that down, not stop it.

Do not look for any logic behind decisions taken by Irish government. They are just trying to push us off the cliff. As soon as it happens as better.

L1011

gral6 wrote: »

Do not look for any logic behind decisions taken by Irish government. They are just trying to push us off the cliff. As soon as it happens as better.

-> Coronavirus forum. Your posts do not appear to have anything Aviation specific.

Blut2

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The legal issues are something of a red herring since Austria is already on the list and is an EU state. The real reason is practically, logistically, politically and economically it would be extremely difficult to do.

That said not doing it effectively condemns Ireland to importing the most virulent strains worldwide and the existing quarantine will only slow that down, not stop it.

The Attorney General and the Former President of the Law Society of Ireland are both on the record saying it wouldn't be legal. And the latter has gone into some detail outlining exactly why. So that would suggest its not a "red herring", there are very real legal concerns.

Austria got away with being on the initial list because we have no direct flights to Austria at present, and the number of people in transit between the two countries is so small. We've also only had hotel quarantine in operation for less than a week to date, so its likely nobody has yet come from Austria. It would have been challenged in the courts and removed in time.

Ireland is going to import "the most virulent strains" anyway. The border with Northern Ireland was never going to close, so they would get in through there anyway. Imposing a ruinously costly mandatory quarantine on all arrivals in DUB when travel to and from BFS is open is akin to expensively running your central heating on full blast to keep your house warm, while half your windows are open. Costly and pointless.

Van.Bosch

My personal opinion is the government (rightly or wrongly) want to suppress travel until they build the amount vaccinated. I think September, when the schools are back and travel reduces we will see intra EU travel resume.

I’m firmly in the “I’d go anywhere for a break” camp, I might even be tempted to go to somewhere like Birmingham for a week!

Gael23

Van.Bosch wrote: »

My personal opinion is the government (rightly or wrongly) want to suppress travel until they build the amount vaccinated. I think September, when the schools are back and travel reduces we will see intra EU travel resume.

I’m firmly in the “I’d go anywhere for a break” camp, I might even be tempted to go to somewhere like Birmingham for a week!

There won’t be many airlines left by September

BZ

What happens if one of the Ethiopians through DUB is to go tech? Passengers will either have to be kept airside until aircraft is repaired or a replacement found. Can't risk sending them to a hotel incase any are either from or have been to a high risk country in the last 14 days.

gral6

Gael23 wrote: »

There won’t be many airlines left by September

We can always hire a private jet to bring our TDs and MM to Brussles or Washington for a jolly ride. Who cares about the plebs?

Van.Bosch

BZ wrote: »

What happens if one of the Ethiopians through DUB is to go tech? Passengers will either have to be kept airside until aircraft is repaired or a replacement found. Can't risk sending them to a hotel incase any are either from or have been to a high risk country in the last 14 days.

Everyone on the plane will have been to a high risk country after Tuesday when Ethiopia is added.

L1011

gral6 wrote: »

We can always hire a private jet to bring our TDs and MM to Brussles or Washington for a jolly ride. Who cares about the plebs?

You were already told to take your negative off topic posting to the main COVID forum. Don't post in this thread again. Don't reply to this post.

Jamie2k9

Blut2 wrote: »

The Attorney General and the Former President of the Law Society of Ireland are both on the record saying it wouldn't be legal. And the latter has gone into some detail outlining exactly why. So that would suggest its not a "red herring", there are very real legal concerns.

Austria got away with being on the initial list because we have no direct flights to Austria at present, and the number of people in transit between the two countries is so small. We've also only had hotel quarantine in operation for less than a week to date, so its likely nobody has yet come from Austria. It would have been challenged in the courts and removed in time.

Ireland is going to import "the most virulent strains" anyway. The border with Northern Ireland was never going to close, so they would get in through there anyway. Imposing a ruinously costly mandatory quarantine on all arrivals in DUB when travel to and from BFS is open is akin to expensively running your central heating on full blast to keep your house warm, while half your windows are open. Costly and pointless.

The legality question is just an excuse for the Government to avoid expanding the quarantine system. They just don't want any quarantine system in place.

The Government could put an outright ban in place for 3 months until Europe catch's up on vaccinations if they were really concerned about rising cases.

This doesn't represent my views on travel but the simple fact is the Government have many options available but have chosen to not use them.

Blut2

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The legality question is just an excuse for the Government to avoid expanding the quarantine system. They just don't want any quarantine system in place.

The Government could put an outright ban in place for 3 months until Europe catch's up on vaccinations if they were really concerned about rising cases.

This doesn't represent my views on travel but the simple fact is the Government have many options available but have chosen to not use them.

But again, if both the the Attorney General and the Former President of the Law Society of Ireland have said its not legally possible, and have offered reasons why, how exactly are they wrong?

Here are just a few of the points:

The former President of the Law Society of Ireland Stuart Gilhooly said it may be illegal to pay for mandatory quarantine.

“It seems to particularly relate to issues around the freedom of movement of workers which is something that arises from Article 45 of the EU Treaty,” he said.

“The concern is that if you are saying to workers coming from a different country or indeed Irish citizens coming here that you can’t move freely to a job from a different country that could create a problem within EU law.”

He said another concern is that while the Government is entitled to restrict human and Constitutional rights for public health reasons – this must be done on a ‘proportional’ basis.

“There is a worry that if there are certain countries that are not that dissimilar to Ireland in terms of COVID numbers, by saying to people that they can’t leave the hotel for 12 days that is not a proportional restriction on their rights,” he said.

Mr Gilhooly said there are “further concerns” about the high cost of the quarantine system.

“Not everyone has €1,800,” he said. “In fact, most people don’t have that so if, for instance, you are an Irish citizen stranded abroad and you wanted to get back and you found you had to do the hotel quarantine for that period and you didn’t have €1,800, what would happen then?

“Does that mean you can’t come back? Does that mean you will end up being sued for that amount in the future or what does it mean?

“That is another element they are concerned about.”

https://www.newstalk.com/news/mandatory-hotel-quarantine-expansion-facing-range-of-legal-difficulties-1173874

If you're claiming the government is just "using it as an excuse" and they could easily "put an outright ban in place for 3 months until Europe catch's up on vaccinations if they were really concerned about rising cases" then you're going to have to explain why exactly the above advice from a legal expert is wrong, and you know better.

Jamie2k9

Blut2 wrote: »

But again, if both the the Attorney General and the Former President of the Law Society of Ireland have said its not legally possible, and have offered reasons why, how exactly are they wrong?

Here are just a few of the points:



https://www.newstalk.com/news/mandatory-hotel-quarantine-expansion-facing-range-of-legal-difficulties-1173874

If you're claiming the government is just "using it as an excuse" and they could easily "put an outright ban in place for 3 months until Europe catch's up on vaccinations if they were really concerned about rising cases" then you're going to have to explain why exactly the above advice from a legal expert is wrong, and you know better.

Covid fits the exceptions around 2004 free movement legal regulation or directive (cant remember which). Countries can close borders to free movement. The AG is concerned about charging people for hotel stays. I would like to see it tested because it would go to ECJ to rule. Take passengers paying out of it, Gpverment could foot the bill because health should trump economics.

Government don't want annoy the EC who didn't like EU states closing borders last year but had to give in. Ireland would be under pressure if they did do a full ban or take the gamble of charging them for hotel quarantine.

I will say it again, the Government have chosen not to deal with EU citizens and the potential impact on Covid spread in Ireland. Any legal issues eases the pressure helps them validate the decision taken.

MadYaker

Until it’s challenged in court the AG is expressing his personal opinion on it.

basill

MadYaker wrote: »

Until it’s challenged in court the AG is expressing his personal opinion on it.

No. In his role as AG he is expressing his legal opinion in order that he discharges his duty to protect the governments interests.

Blut2

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Covid fits the exceptions around 2004 free movement legal regulation or directive (cant remember which). Countries can close borders to free movement. The AG is concerned about charging people for hotel stays. I would like to see it tested because it would go to ECJ to rule. Take passengers paying out of it, Gpverment could foot the bill because health should trump economics.

Government don't want annoy the EC who didn't like EU states closing borders last year but had to give in. Ireland would be under pressure if they did do a full ban or take the gamble of charging them for hotel quarantine.

I will say it again, the Government have chosen not to deal with EU citizens and the potential impact on Covid spread in Ireland. Any legal issues eases the pressure helps them validate the decision taken.

You've again offered nothing here but your own personal opinion/speculation that its the government's "choice" though. And ignored most of the multiple points made by Stuart Gilhooly. Theres no hard evidence to back this statement up whatsoever in your post.

And with all due respect as far as I'm aware you're not one of the preeminent legal minds in the country - you're just a random guy on the internet. Which means the Attorney General and the Former President of the Law Society of Ireland's opinions and statements on this topic, which are apparently the opposite of yours, are by default the more accurate ones.

Jamie2k9

Blut2 wrote: »

You've again offered nothing here but your own personal opinion/speculation that its the government's "choice" though. And ignored most of the multiple points made by Stuart Gilhooly. Theres no hard evidence to back this statement up whatsoever in your post.

And with all due respect as far as I'm aware you're not one of the preeminent legal minds in the country - you're just a random guy on the internet. Which means the Attorney General and the Former President of the Law Society of Ireland's opinions and statements on this topic, which are apparently the opposite of yours, are by default the more accurate ones.

What else is it only a choice, the US was left off the list by choice? Austria is still on the list, the no direct flights hasn't a legal leg to stand on.

Additionally the AG advised on what they were asked specifically, as I have indicated other options are available if the Government have health as a priority.

Surly you can find the 2004 legal doc and read it yourself?

Blut2

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What else is it only a choice, the US was left off the list by choice? Austria is still on the list, the no direct flights hasn't a legal leg to stand on.

Additionally the AG advised on what they were asked specifically, as I have indicated other options are available if the Government have health as a priority.

Surly you can find the 2004 legal doc and read it yourself?

Its not a choice if it mandatory hotel quarantine is illegal, as the legal experts are advising. Austria will be off the list very shortly apparently.

You're the one claiming the Attorney General and Law Society President's legal advice is wrong, and that you know better, so you're the one who needs to provide evidence to substantiate your claim. Specifically the points raised above:


1) How does the MHQ not contravene Article 45 of the EU Treaty? --
“The concern is that if you are saying to workers coming from a different country or indeed Irish citizens coming here that you can’t move freely to a job from a different country that could create a problem within EU law.”"


2) How does the MHQ not fall foul of proportionality laws? --
"While the Government is entitled to restrict human and Constitutional rights for public health reasons – this must be done on a ‘proportional’ basis.“There is a worry that if there are certain countries that are not that dissimilar to Ireland in terms of COVID numbers, by saying to people that they can’t leave the hotel for 12 days that is not a proportional restriction on their rights,” he said.


3) How can you legally enforce MHQ on Irish citizens who can't afford the quarantine? --
Mr Gilhooly said there are “further concerns” about the high cost of the quarantine system. “Not everyone has €1,800,” he said. “In fact, most people don’t have that so if, for instance, you are an Irish citizen stranded abroad and you wanted to get back and you found you had to do the hotel quarantine for that period and you didn’t have €1,800, what would happen then? “Does that mean you can’t come back? Does that mean you will end up being sued for that amount in the future or what does it mean?