Will you travel? [Mod Note in Post #1 - Travel Discussion Only! Megathread]

bladespin

colmtheperson wrote: »

If COVID is a thing of the past this year which I think is doable I can see NZ style quarantine being a thing until other countries have zero COVID and similar border restrictions

How much legislation do you think it would take to undo the EU constitution???

yoshimitsu

colmtheperson wrote: »

Mid 2022? 18 months away? NZ managed to beat the virus in 6 weeks, there's no reason we can't

chill out people, colmtheperson has got the solution... staring right at us (all 7.67bn of us not living in NZ) all this time

TobyHolmes

agoodpunt wrote: »

the scare, gloom and doom posters here will have us googling type of shackles

If people who have a wfh business and dont have an eighty year old to hug and are doing the safe thing where they are, fcuk ooof mind your own business its begrudgry at the highest.

A few frontline Irish workers here thinking the same.

And fcuk RTE for it zero covid policy dont listen or watch just heard the stupid show last night running around the airport sorry i wasnt it would have been a rear end greeting for the bunch of over paid tossers

Its this absolute, all or nothing mentality that drives me nuts. Some people dont allow for any nuances in their way of thinking, there is no creative thinking - its either 1. You think like me - you are in my box. 2. You dont think like me - you are outside of my box.

Red Silurian

bubblypop wrote: »

what?
under what law?

Suspicion of breaking lockdown laws

bladespin wrote: »

How much legislation do you think it would take to undo the EU constitution???

Emergency legislation for public health - a lot sniffly but it's not impossible... The EU Constitution guarantees freedom of movement, not a freedom to unrestricted movement

So we have to let them in but we don't have to do so without a mandatory quarantine

Plumbthedepths

yoshimitsu wrote: »

chill out people, colmtheperson has got the solution... staring right at us (all 7.67bn of us not living in NZ) all this time

Ah a ZC acolyte. Nuff said.

Red Silurian

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Ah a ZC acolyte. Nuff said.

A what?

bladespin

colmtheperson wrote: »

Suspicion of breaking lockdown laws

What lockdown law could be applied to people arriving from abroad??? We don't have all that many really.

colmtheperson wrote: »

Emergency legislation for public health - a lot sniffly but it's not impossible... The EU Constitution guarantees freedom of movement, not a freedom to unrestricted movement

That would have to be stress tested before it could be enacted, it would also be challenged within second, not to mention what the EU would make of it (seemingly important considering our political stance over the years).

colmtheperson wrote: »

So we have to let them in but we don't have to do so without a mandatory quarantine

But you can't detain them either, we already request that they self isolate, can't do much more, to enforce that isolation is internment, hmmm - history.

Not disregarding measures to protect ourselves but most of what the government have been spouting lately is unmitigated waffle - saying and doing are different things - bit like the mandatory/recommended self isolation before - hot air and nothing more.

Red Silurian

bladespin wrote: »

What lockdown law could be applied to people arriving from abroad???.

The law on the 5km limit that we are now discussing

bladespin wrote: »

That would have to be stress tested before it could be enacted, it would also be challenged within second, not to mention what the EU would make of it (seemingly important considering our political stance over the years).



But you can't detain them either, we already request that they self isolate, can't do much more, to enforce that isolation is internment, hmmm - history.

Not disregarding measures to protect ourselves but most of what the government have been spouting lately is unmitigated waffle - saying and doing are different things - bit like the mandatory/recommended self isolation before - hot air and nothing more.

You could make it in such a way that people traveling to Ireland must book their own quarantine accommodation and have proof of it before boarding a plane

Tenzor07

colmtheperson wrote: »

You could make it in such a way that people traveling to Ireland must book their own quarantine accommodation and have proof of it before boarding a plane

Instead of Booking.com maybe they could create;

Bookmyquarantinevacation.com

with a range of discounts, maybe some extra nice fluffy Pj's and a chance to upgrade your meal to the 5 star menu?


And if they leave the hotel just apply those fantasy laws and bend the constitution to suit?

TobyHolmes

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Instead of Booking.com maybe they could create;

Bookmyquarantinevacation.com

with a range of discounts, maybe some extra nice fluffy Pj's and a chance to upgrade your meal to the 5 star menu?


And if they leave the hotel just apply those fantasy laws and bend the constitution to suit?

thats whats going to happen though isnt it - hotels will start offering quarantine packages. whats wrong with it - will be encouraging people to quarantine and you may as well do it in style.

TobyHolmes

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Instead of Booking.com maybe they could create;

Bookmyquarantinevacation.com

with a range of discounts, maybe some extra nice fluffy Pj's and a chance to upgrade your meal to the 5 star menu?


And if they leave the hotel just apply those fantasy laws and bend the constitution to suit?

you also have a good business idea there so i'd get on that now actually !

bladespin

colmtheperson wrote: »

The law on the 5km limit that we are now discussing

Can't apply that to 'arrivals', can you? Our 5km law doesn't apply until you're actually here (even then - essential travel).

colmtheperson wrote: »

You could make it in such a way that people traveling to Ireland must book their own quarantine accommodation and have proof of it before boarding a plane

That's possible but could just as easily fall back into the current requirement - sounds good means nothing.

colmtheperson

colmtheperson wrote: »

Suspicion of breaking lockdown laws

no they dont.
jesus christ things are bad enough without giving people false information.

Tenzor07

TobyHolmes wrote: »

thats whats going to happen though isnt it - hotels will start offering quarantine packages. whats wrong with it - will be encouraging people to quarantine and you may as well do it in style.

Yeap, was a hotel manager on RTE lastnight outlining the quarantine package" for your lovely 14 day stay...

#quarantinecation

mulbot

With these new announcements,are they the full and finalized changes for now, I.e the quarantine for Brazil ,South Africa, etc . Will they change this to all travellers in the next few weeks.

TobyHolmes

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yeap, was a hotel manager on RTE lastnight outlining the quarantine package" for your lovely 14 day stay...

#quarantinecation

haha yeah i saw that - was funny


i'd prefer a nicer hotel though lol

TobyHolmes

where is he going with this

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/covid-19-international-travel-may-not-be-possible-by-christmas-varadkar-1.4469069

bladespin

TobyHolmes wrote: »

where is he going with this

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/covid-19-international-travel-may-not-be-possible-by-christmas-varadkar-1.4469069

Waffling but at least he's giving fair warning that travel may be difficult this summer rather than leaving those who've bought and paid for holidays in the lurch wondering like they did last year.

km991148

agoodpunt wrote: »

the scare, gloom and doom posters here will have us googling type of shackles

If people who have a wfh business and dont have an eighty year old to hug and are doing the safe thing where they are, fcuk ooof mind your own business its begrudgry at the highest.

A few frontline Irish workers here thinking the same.

And fcuk RTE for it zero covid policy dont listen or watch just heard the stupid show last night running around the airport sorry i wasnt it would have been a rear end greeting for the bunch of over paid tossers

But it's not really tho, is it?

I mean stop and actually think about it. Sure a few people who don't need to meet others can work from home and in theory isolate anywhere. A few have already, fine.

If everyone who could were encouraged to do so, that's a different situation, right? Many more people traveling. It doesn't matter how cautious you try to be, you will still need to interact with a lot more people than if you were just to stay in one spot. We have seen this countless times. More people travel, more spread.

It's a numbers game and the more people that are allowed to travel the worse the situation becomes. That's not doom mongering, it's just fact. Not saying it's like this forever, but for now it has to be. So unfortunately it doesn't matter how creatively you can bend the rules, it's not helping and is just extended this bs.

Red Silurian

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Instead of Booking.com maybe they could create;

Bookmyquarantinevacation.com

with a range of discounts, maybe some extra nice fluffy Pj's and a chance to upgrade your meal to the 5 star menu?


And if they leave the hotel just apply those fantasy laws and bend the constitution to suit?

My point is that if somebody has booked a flight and mandatory quarantine accommodation before they travel they can't claim to have been involuntarily detained upon arrival in Ireland because they knew what they were landing into

bladespin wrote: »

Waffling but at least he's giving fair warning that travel may be difficult this summer rather than leaving those who've bought and paid for holidays in the lurch wondering like they did last year.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, if we have 70% of our population vaccinated by September as is planned there's no reason why international travel (especially to other vaccinated countries) can't go ahead... The taoiseach here is just trying to stop people flying to Benidorm for 2 weeks in July and August with this statement

Gael23

TobyHolmes wrote: »

where is he going with this

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/covid-19-international-travel-may-not-be-possible-by-christmas-varadkar-1.4469069

Tell that to older people that may never see their grandchildren living abroad again

TobyHolmes

Gael23 wrote: »

Tell that to older people that may never see their grandchildren living abroad again

tell what to older people? why are you inferring something into my comment? I said where is he going with these statements?


Is he clairvoyant? we dont even know what the state of the place will be a month from now never mind 12 months.

yoshimitsu

A few axioms have emerged in the short but active lifespan of this thread:

Non-essential travel = going to Spain to get drunk
Non-essential travel = putting frontline workers at risk
Staying in Ireland = saves lives

I envy those that see things in black and white; life would be a lot less complicated without all the shades of grey to argue about.

Cerveza

That would be the 50 shades

TobyHolmes

yoshimitsu wrote: »

A few axioms have emerged in the short but active lifespan of this thread:

Non-essential travel = going to Spain to get drunk
Non-essential travel = putting frontline workers at risk
Staying in Ireland = saves lives

I envy those that see things in black and white; life would be a lot less complicated without all the shades of grey to argue about.

yeah exactly - a sign of real intelligence actually is to see the nuances in issues rather than saddling yourself on one side of the fence over another.



Just jump back and forth over that fence, see things, think about things, explore the issue. Think creatively.

km991148

yoshimitsu wrote: »

A few axioms have emerged in the short but active lifespan of this thread:

Non-essential travel = going to Spain to get drunk
Non-essential travel = putting frontline workers at risk
Staying in Ireland = saves lives

I envy those that see things in black and white; life would be a lot less complicated without all the shades of grey to argue about.

Lol. To highlight black and white thinking, you have demonstrated some pretty black and white thinking there!

It's numbers really tho isn't it? A few people traveling responsibly, probably not much harm. More than a few.. risk increases, as has demonstrably been the case.

yoshimitsu

km991148 wrote: »

Lol. To highlight black and white thinking, you have demonstrated some pretty black and white thinking there!

It's numbers really tho isn't it? A few people traveling responsibly, probably not much harm. More than a few.. risk increases, as has demonstrably been the case.

i was highlighting the extremes... so you're right about that.


the final statement... hmmm that i have some issues with

colmtheperson

colmtheperson wrote: »

I don't think they'd do it for the craic but they would have the right to if you were suspected of breaking the law

Only under very limited circumstances and you have the right to make a habeas corpus application to the courts. FYI it would involve the direct intervention of not only a Sergeant but a Superintendent and Chief Superintendent to keep you for 48 hours.

Every persons detention is subject to oversight and accountability

km991148

yoshimitsu wrote: »

i was highlighting the extremes... so you're right about that.


the final statement... hmmm that i have some issues with

Hmm let's see.. few people travel, numbers ok. Country opens up a bit numbers go haywire (Christmas for example).

See the problem is, and it winds me up too, we need blanket rules because people cannot be trusted to act responsibly. Additionally when a lot if people travel (or are allowed to) you aren't just letting those responsible travel, you are also letting the fukwits travel too. That's before you get into looking at no matter how responsibly you travel, there is a chance that you will still contribute to the spread of the virus. Especially if you end up having it without symptom.

I can work from home (I consider myself lucky there) but my entire life is in hold. Meanwhile all sorts if rules are bent and pushed to the limit. It's a pain in the hole.

yoshimitsu

I came across this chart that tracks number of flights in China (domestic and international) against number of Covid cases:

(attached below in case it doesnt show)

The time series ends in August but checking the source (flightradar24) we're still averaging 80-100% of pre-COVID domestic flight volumes, depending on the month.

So how have they done it? They haven't banned domestic traveling, quite the opposite. They've restricted (but not banned) international flights to 20-30% of pre-Covid levels. So how? I'll take a stab at it but really looking forward to people views (black, white or whatever shade of grey they may be):

1. "The data is fake. China is a dictatorship and government controls the news". Partially true but the data is provided by flightradar24 (non-Chinese, used by IATA, the global body that represents the global industry). Similar stats looking at tickets sold are compiled by other non-Chinese organizations (e.g. ForwardKeys). Actually, if you look at the stats for Japan and S. Korea, they tell a similar story

2. "The restrictions on international flights is what matters, dummy". Possibly but I'd venture to say that in a country with 1.3bn inhabitants and a land mass 2x+ that of W. Europe it doesn’t really matter if you are crossing any border while flying from Harbin to Sanya (ca. 4000 kms; 6hr flight). It matters if you're flying from an area of high cases to an area of low cases (more on that later). Using the US as an example, international flights have averaged 20-30% of pre-Covid levels (and domestic flights only back to 40-50%) and yet the stats around cases and deaths have been among the worst globally

3. Could it be that the response to COVID as a whole has been more efficient in terms of testing, tracing, timely quarantines and, most importantly, people's adherence to those policies? The focus hasn’t been on not letting people travel full stop. The focus is on not letting people travel (travel in broad sense meaning going from point A to point B by whatever means over whatever distance) if you come from a place with high number of cases

As an example, take what happened in the city of Kashgar in late Oct. A city of 4.7m inhabitants was locked down in strict quarantine as a cluster was developing. In 10 days they tested the ENTIRE population and found 140 asymptomatic cases. During those 10 days you were not allowed to travel. Not by plane, train, bus, minivan, taxi, motorcycle, bicycle, scooter or by foot. You couldn’t travel to Beijing, Hong-Kong, Macau, Lanzarote or the village 15km away, no matter what excuse you gave to the Red Army on the way to the airport. Once the entire population of the city was tested and those infected isolated, the city was re-opened and you were allowed to travel again anywhere in the country using whatever mean of transportation you fancied.

China is a dictatorship with severe limitation to civil rights so the adherence to the rules cant be replicated in many Western countries. But take Japan and S. Korea which have democratic governments and have seen similar trends to China. The difference is that they had experience with several other epidemics (either at home or very close) and they knew what to do from day 1, applied the rules consistently (without the worry of the political cost involved with the harsh measures) avoiding the general lockdown/easing/lockdown/easing that we've seen in the Western world and that has been so costly, in human and economic sense.

Irish policies have been inconsistent and ineffective. Testing has been slow to ramp and still not at the levels where it should be. Contract tracing is slow and ineffective. Easing of restrictions in early December properly reckless. This is not to point to the finger at Ireland; I follow Italian and Spanish news because I have family there and they've made a royal mess of it as well.

Travel restrictions are necessary at times and they are an useful tool to reduce (not eliminate) the risk of importing the virus from high risk areas but total travel bans are impractical, unnecessary and ineffective if not done in combination with strict, consistent and efficient local policies