Domestic Solar PV Quotes 2020

The old inverters are better. Transformer inverters last 20 years. They're getting replaced with high frequency installers and manufacturers love because they're lightweight and cheap to produce and ship. They won't last a decade.

gomamochi1

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Lead and li-ion are in the high 90s efficiency, Chargers and inverters are much lower. the whole lot together is a waste of time if you have wires.

I had some words with the SEAI about how futile teeny domestic batteries are in the grand scheme of things. A few months later they axed the subsidy. Fair play.

The battery is reducing solar power to the grid. Without them we'd be burning less bogs and dinosaurs.

Though to be honest its the ship loads of wood chips that we import into greenore port from depths of Africa after harvesting and 18km of conveyor belts delivering into the port in Africa and drive down to ardnacrusha and the likes that peas me off more!

py

py wrote: »

12 * JA Solar 340W panels
2 * 2.4K Pylon Tech battery
Solis invertor
Iboost

€6,600 after grant.

Any thoughts?

This is for a S-SE facing house. Family of 4, with myself likely to be based 100% WFH going forward. The other 3 are school based so they'll be at home when school is off. No electric vehicles and unlikely to be for 5+ years.

So an update to this.

Increase of the above panels to allow for 16 of them and then an upgraded inverter would add €1,500 to the quote. Original quote above is actually €100 over, seems I fat fingered the post so it should've been €6,500. Based on the discussions in here the past few days, I'm going to see if I can get a quote for the install without the battery and hybrid inverter. The DIY installs that a few have discussed is defo out, we've got a slope of 45 degrees on a 2 storey house so it's not something I'm going to tackle.

gomamochi1

unkel wrote: »

EUR72 for a 300W panel including shipping costs from Germany (so incl. German VAT)? That's pretty damn good.

Yep that's about 72e each panel including vat. 50e for pallet shipped to Dublin. If anyone is I interested I can pass on their details as it was passed onto me from a mate in the r&d sector in a big company. You would need to source ground mounting or roof mounting wiring etc yourselves. I was thinking of adding them to my 4.8 kwh setup in the future though prob need a bigger inverter etc.

Don't invest in power you can't use. Less is more. Don't point everything at the same patch of sky, spread it out and put the majority pointing where the sun is when you are home.
The non-grant systems are cheaper after the grant is applied anyways.

championc

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

My most important point is forget the bleedin' batteries. They're not doing anyone any favours. Measure the system, payback's a b*t##.

EXACTLY. I said that earlier when I said you'd be lucky to save €100 per year. They will most likely have degraded in 10 years, and the payback is at least 15, even if they are bundled into a deal.

championc

championc wrote: »

you'd be lucky to save €100 per year.

Better get the most expensive, hi-tech whizzbang one ya can so...:pac:
Lightweight, of course because cars have them..it's the footure!

gomamochi1

gomamochi1 wrote: »

Yep that's about 72e each panel including vat. 50e for pallet shipped to Dublin. If anyone is I interested I can pass on their details as it was passed onto me from a mate in the r&d sector in a big company. You would need to source ground mounting or roof mounting wiring etc yourselves. I was thinking of adding them to my 4.8 kwh setup in the future though prob need a bigger inverter etc.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1k5gDMYHYcFzzDfT6

unkel

gomamochi1 wrote: »

50e for pallet shipped to Dublin.

You sure about that, sounds very cheap! so about EUR2 per panel, making it EUR74 per panel, VAT and shipping to your door included?

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Spare me the cloud.

OnLooker

So the general consensus seems to be to not get a battery but instead max your panels?

Based on the €6.5k quote outlined by “py” you would better off removing the 2 * 2.4 batteries and increasing your panels from 12 to 16 panels whilst downgrading from a hybrid inverter?

The 4 extra panels would obviously be more expensive as the grant covers a 4KW system plus having to upgrade the invertor.

Adding an extra 2 panels would get you nearly a 5KW system whilst not needing to upgrade the invertor.

If you go with the hybrid invertor and batteries but after 10 years decide not to reinvest in new batteries your system will still work without them I would presume?

phester28

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

The old inverters are better. Transformer inverters last 20 years. They're getting replaced with high frequency installers and manufacturers love because they're lightweight and cheap to produce and ship. They won't last a decade.

LF inverters are more robust but they also waste alot of power in the transformer due to switching losses at 50hz.


HF are more scaleable but usually they use DC-DC high voltage as an intermediate step and use electrolytic caps that will struggle to last 10 years .

They also have more separate design blocks with PWM, softstart, and alot of attempts to control the fet switching to prevent crossover or overloading.

gomamochi1

unkel wrote: »

You sure about that, sounds very cheap! so about EUR2 per panel, making it EUR74 per panel, VAT and shipping to your door included?

Yep about the pallet price . Straight from horses mouth.

phester28

phester28 wrote: »

LF inverters are more robust but they also waste alot of power in the transformer due to switching losses at 50hz.

Yeah? So does the payback on a < 5% efficiency increase pay for two high frequency inverters?


I've one high frequency battery inverter & 8 low frequency. LF Studers are 90% efficient across the load range as opposed to my high frequency MasterApprenticeVolt which peaks at 85% efficiency optimal load.


The isolation is superior, the surge capability is unrivalled and the suitable RCDs are one tenth the price.



Swiss engineering compared to the Dutch.

gomamochi1

Query= new installation= zappi has only one ct clamp installed ie grid ref in /out however it should have a ct clamp on inverter /battery as how will it know how to charge car from eco plus mode without it ?

gomamochi1

Query= new installation= zappi has only one ct clamp installed ie grid ref in /out however it should have a ct clamp on inverter /battery as how will it know how to charge car from eco plus mode without it ?

championc

gomamochi1 wrote: »

Query= new installation= zappi has only one ct clamp installed ie grid ref in /out however it should have a ct clamp on inverter /battery as how will it know how to charge car from eco plus mode without it ?

You can't

You need a CT Clamp on EACH device that generates / produces power. So you need one on the AC + leg off your inverter. If you have a separate battery/storage inverter, you need a Clamp on it's AC + leg too.

_dof_

championc wrote: »

You can't

You need a CT Clamp on EACH device that generates / produces power. So you need one on the AC + leg off your inverter. If you have a separate battery/storage inverter, you need a Clamp on it's AC + leg too.

Not strictly true. You only need the one CT clamp on the grid supply. For ECO+ mode the Zappi needs to know if there's a surplus which would be sent to the grid and intervenes to prevent that export to the grid by sending that to the car instead.

It doesn't need a second CT clamp to do that, since the clamp on the mains supply gives it enough information about the flow of current in or out.

However, if you have a DC coupled battery (like most solar installations) you can add a CT clamp on the AC live conductor to the inverter, that allows the app to show how much current is coming from or going to the solar/batter combination, but it's only useful for display purposes in the app I think.

If you have the rarer AC coupled battery could could have a CT clamp on the connection to the battery and that allows configuration of prioritisation of charging/discharging the car vs. the A/C coupled battery.

championc

_dof_ wrote: »

However, if you have a DC coupled battery (like most solar installations) you can add a CT clamp on the AC live conductor to the inverter, that allows the app to show how much current is coming from or going to the solar/batter combination, but it's only useful for display purposes in the app I think.

If you have the rarer AC coupled battery could could have a CT clamp on the connection to the battery and that allows configuration of prioritisation of charging/discharging the car vs. the A/C coupled battery.

If you have a Hybrid Solar Inverter, you cannot measure the power going to the batteries and consequentially, you cannot divert this automatically to the car rather than charging the batteries (since you can only measure the AC side of any inverter)

AC Coupled Batteries (separate storage inverter - like Tesla Powerwall), while the power can be measured, may not ordinarily* prioritize the car over battery charging.

Note too that the minimum excess solar power needed to charge the car with Solar Only power is 1.4kw.

Ideally, I would like to have the priority set to Car, Battery, Eddi. If the car was unconnected or if solar excess less than 1.4kw, then go to the batteries, and when the batteries are full, then go to the Eddi

* The Zappi can be setup to Avoid Charge and Drain of AC Batteries but if you have an Eddi too, the power would go to this before your batteries, if you excess < 1.4kw or the car was not plugged in, or if it was full at 100% charge.

unkel

Out of interest, what is your reasoning for wanting to charge car before battery? Cars are normally charged at night, so the saving is 8c per kWh at best (before losses). Charging the battery and later discharging it during peak hours saves mostly 18c per kWh (before losses)

Is it to minimise wear on the battery, to prolong its life?

championc

Putting it like that, that makes complete sense.

There are days when I could easily be charging the Batteries and car charging. But if the batteries were only filled by noon, alot of 1.4kw time would already be gone and so, could end up sending power to the grid in the latter stages of the day

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Charging the battery and later discharging it during peak hours saves mostly 18c per kWh (before losses)

It only saves 18C if the energy input was free and the storage device, installation and associated hardware was free. If you charge a battery from a battery you can double the losses.

False economy all around.

unkel

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

It only saves 18C if the energy input was free and the storage device, installation and associated hardware was free.

Installation was done already, so a sunk cost. So the saving was indeed 18c minus losses at that stage (provided it is used up for stuff before the night rate kicks in, for stuff that couldn't be postponed to run until night rate, i.e. running the washing machine at 7PM on the battery doesn't count as an 18c saving as it could have been set to run after the night rate kicks in, so just a saving of 8c in that case)

But I'll rephrase: 18c relief towards the cost of the install. Not 18c saving. If that makes it more palatable

Geeyfds53573

Hi thanks to all who have certainly helped me. I am learning a lot here.
I know ye all agree more panels less or no battery, no diverter, but could I get any comments on the overall quality, value for money, compatibility, config, monitoring of the following products. I know it's a bit vague but even any comments appreciated. Any stay far away type comments?
Solax hybrid invertor and Triple Power Battery, Alpha Ess (inverter and battery), Givenergy (inverter and battery), Solix and Polytech.
Panels - Denim, JaSolars, Bisol, Peimar.
Eddi, immersun, iboost.

championc

Geeyfds53573 wrote: »

Hi thanks to all who have certainly helped me. I am learning a lot here.
I know ye all agree more panels less or no battery, no diverter, but could I get any comments on the overall quality, value for money, compatibility, config, monitoring of the following products. I know it's a bit vague but even any comments appreciated. Any stay far away type comments?
Solax hybrid invertor and Triple Power Battery, Alpha Ess (inverter and battery), Givenergy (inverter and battery), Solix and Polytech.
Panels - Denim, JaSolars, Bisol, Peimar.
Eddi, immersun, iboost.

Just look back at the last 5 pages and go with the brands frequently mentioned and you won't go far wrong. Look at the components mentioned in people's quotes.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

18c relief towards the cost of the install. Not 18c saving. If that makes it more palatable

My batteries not included system made me €0.16 today. :pac:
Raking it in I am.



So funny when I look at grid tied doing 10% rated in the mancave then I wander over to my DC coupled van and see 15% rated.

Conversion losses.

If you're charging with nightrate then you have to subtract the night rate first, then the system cost, then the efficiency. Utility power is cheap man.

unkel

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

If you're charging with nightrate then you have to subtract the night rate first, then the system cost, then the efficiency.

My system cost is zero, I can break it up tomorrow and sell it for more than I spent on it, no problem. And that would include all costs like delivery charges, cables, fittings and even the fees I paid to my electrician.

But yeah, saving minus night rate minus round trip efficiency losses is right

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Utility power is cheap man.

Indeed. And like yourself, I too would prefer a feed in tariff (even a low one) to using a battery. I have no intention to charge up the battery from night rate, except for doing it to keep the battery healthy (particularly in winter I would imagine)

A feed in tarriff would be great, but me auld proto-house has an insatiable thirst for lecky so I'm pretty much guaranteed to use whatever I generate. Plus there's no small engines about the place it's all electric. I could throw another 6kW into the garden and still not worry too much about not being able to use it.
All my battery sets are giving diesel a run for it's money far more lucrative..mwa!

Ah just offline the system in November to March and give it a solar panel on yer TriStar.

unkel

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

just offline the system in November to March and give it a solar panel on yer TriStar.

Not a bad idea, hadn't considered that.

Tradnuts

championc wrote: »

The important things to be very careful about is
a) never mix panels pointing in different directions, into the same strings - have each roof section group into a separate input on the inverter
b) whenever you have a shading issue, you'll need to install Optimizers on each of the panels which could be shaded, allowing too for longer shadows in wintertime.

Hi, Can someone answer this please. Can the panels be put on east and west roof but into the same Inverter? My quote said if i wanted them on both roofs (even though they are beside each other) that i would need a 2nd inverter. Is this true?

I would have though an east/west and even south would supply a string each and could all be joined into the same inverter?
Thanks

unkel

You can use the same inverter, but it would have to have dual MPPT inputs (one for each string). Most bigger power inverters have two as standard these days. Some even have three.