Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

TomSweeney

TomSweeney wrote: »

I actually like that line, and I didn't see it as an insult to the fans, more that this is the real world to these characters !


My uncle hates Sci Fi but he lives with modern tech,uses an iPhone, iPad etc ... drives a hybrid, it's just life, now imagine some 1890 play with a plot like that ? would it be considered Jules Verne type stuff ??

Pill's character should have just said "Admiral, you kinda lived it!"

Burty330

Whats with Federation personnel coming off as evil villains. I guess figures of authority can't be the good guys anymore to the likes Alex Hackzman and his ilk.
What does this Klutz get from having that Federation officer deprive Picard the respect he deserved to receive as he approached the terminal?

You mean to tell me this guy doesn't know Picard when he's right there in front of him??? Even when the star ship Luc piloted for the majority of his life if hovering right above his frickin head as a hologram?!!!


This vision of Trek according to Hackzman where a man of Picards stature gets snapped and yelled at by star fleet command is antithetical to the vision Rodenbury had for Trek.. Even Gerordie can see that.

Speaking of Geordie , if there was a bromance with Data , it was with Geordie , not Picard. Picard was much closer to Riker

Burty330

Burty330 wrote: »

Whats with Federation personnel coming off as evil villains. I guess figures of authority can't be the good guys anymore to the likes Alex Hackzman and his ilk.
What does this Klutz get from having that Federation officer deprive Picard the respect he deserved to receive as he approached the terminal?

You mean to tell me this guy doesn't know Picard when he's right there in front of him??? Even when the star ship Luc piloted for the majority of his life if hovering right above his frickin head as a hologram?!!!


This vision of Trek according to Hackzman where a man of Picards stature gets snapped and yelled at by star fleet command is antithetical to the vision Rodenbury had for Trek.. Even Gerordie can see that.

Speaking of Geordie , if there was a bromance with Data , it was with Geordie , not Picard. Picard was much closer to Riker

I've seen a security guard fired for not asking the Regional Director for his ID card, ignoring that this same Director was happy enough to drive in daily without getting carded.

The mistake the guard made? Not realising that the director also had his boss in the car at the time.

Picard should know better than to expect to circumvent regulations, that young officer must ask these questions.

Burty330

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen a security guard fired for not asking the Regional Director for his ID card, ignoring that this same Director was happy enough to drive in daily without getting carded.

The mistake the guard made? Not realising that the director also had his boss in the car at the time.

Picard should know better than to expect to circumvent regulations, that young officer must ask these questions.

I don't know what you're talking about!

That young officer legit did not know who Picard was. . Its like an intern working in Microsoft not knowing who Bill Gates is.

The same stupid scene was seen in the latest James Bond trailer , which i can forgive given Bond is a secret agent and wotnot

Picard is a historical figure who saved the world from Borg assimilation. He is known by everybody in SF from top to bottom.

Pitiful writing from fools who clearly don't respect the lore. But why would they , respecting the lore will only cost them more bobs in licencing fee's.

pixelburp

Think even by the standards of Trek, you're reading too much into a single, throwaway scene that while not played for laughs, was a wry underlining that "this isn't the same Starfleet Picard left, and times have moved on".

They respected the lore enough to callback to Best of Both Worlds, where, IIRC, the reversion of Borg tech left Picard with potential issues in the "parietal lobe" down the line. And lookie here.

Stark

Totally missed that. Thought Picard's parietal lobe issue was congenital.

pixelburp

Stark wrote: »

Totally missed that. Thought Picard's parietal lobe issue was congenital.

I've tried to look it up again, but failed to find the ref so it's not a guarantee, but AFAIK Data told Picard that a result of the De'borgification would be parietal lobe issues in later life. If true, it paints this blather about respecting the lore in a new light, cos there's clearly effort being put into research

Rawr

pixelburp wrote: »

I've tried to look it up again, but failed to find the ref so it's not a guarantee, but AFAIK Data told Picard that a result of the De'borgification would be parietal lobe issues in later life. If true, it paints this blather about respecting the lore in a new light, cos there's clearly effort being put into research

I was kind of guessing that all of this was a reference to Irumodic Syndrome, which alternate future Picard had around about now in All Good Things.

Memory Alpha wrote:

In the anti-time present, while seeking evidence that he could already have Irumodic Syndrome, Picard was informed by Beverly Crusher that while he did not have the disease itself, he did have a small structural defect in his parietal lobe that could lead to a number of neurological disorders, including Irumodic Syndrome. The defect was so small it required a level 4 neurographic scan to be located.

fritzelly

Re being asked who he was at the security desk, took it as following procedure. The smile on his face and then saying nice to see you up and about Admiral

Rawr

Rawr wrote: »

I was kind of guessing that all of this was a reference to Irumodic Syndrome, which alternate future Picard had around about now in All Good Things.

And it was the proof, which Picard needed, to prove that the time shifts were real (along with the extra memory engrams)

pah

Evade wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed another group that had something to do with Picard getting home.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's never explained

Evade

Romulans don't do AI?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85J1l76hCUc

pixelburp

With 178 episodes of The Next Generation, I'd challenge any self-confessed Trek fan to write a script that's 100% canon-proof. I daresay the show tripped itself up plenty of times.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

With 178 episodes of The Next Generation, I'd challenge any self-confessed Trek fan to write a script that's 100% canon-proof. I daresay the show tripped itself up plenty of times.

Roddenberry was actually quite reckless with canon, himself. If something new made more sense, it took priority.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

With 178 episodes of The Next Generation, I'd challenge any self-confessed Trek fan to write a script that's 100% canon-proof. I daresay the show tripped itself up plenty of times.

It absolutely did but checking this kind of thing is a lot easier now than it was then.

Stark

There are direct contradictions all over the place in the canon. In many cases it's impossible to adhere 100% to canon to it as one episode from the back catalog will directly contradict another. Especially with TOS Trek vs TNG-era Trek.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

It absolutely did but checking this kind of thing is a lot easier now than it was then.

If that was the one and only time a Romulan every mentioned cybernetics, I'd quibble that while findable, it wouldn't be without effort & TBH, there's an element of "it doesn't matter".

Cue attached image of Spock grinning from the "The Cage"

Reading the YT comments it just feels like an excuse to bash Kurtzman TBH; who isn't even the showrunner anyway!

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

If that was the one and only time a Romulan every mentioned cybernetics, I'd quibble that while findable, it wouldn't be without effort & TBH, there's an element of "it doesn't matter".

Step 1: Make a throwaway Reddit account
Step 2: Post "Hey guys, just watched Nemesis. Did the Romulans have any experience with androids/AI before B4?" in r/StarTrek
Step 3: Get hundreds of replies with every mention of Romulan AI/Cybernetics throughout all of Star Trek.

pixelburp wrote: »

Reading the YT comments it just feels like an excuse to bash Kurtzman TBH; who isn't even the showrunner anyway!

Five mentions in 118 comments isn't exactly rampant Kurtzman bashing.

Stark

https://www.reddit.com/r/Picard/comments/ewlkum/spoiler_reconciling_episode_2_and_tngs_the/

Full quote was:

Romulan:"I know a host of Romulan cyberneticists that would love to be this close to you."
Data:"I do not find that concept to be particularly appealing."
Romulan:"Nor should you."

Which seems consistent with "Picard". "Cyberneticist" in this case being someone charged with eliminating AI.

Cookie_Monster

Those mars androids remind me strongly of 0718

Evade

Stark wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/Picard/comments/ewlkum/spoiler_reconciling_episode_2_and_tngs_the/

Full quote was:



Which seems consistent with "Picard". "Cyberneticist" in this case being someone charged with eliminating AI.

That's quite a leap. Far more likely Setal was implying the Romulan cybernetecists would take him apart to examine him.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

Step 1: Make a throwaway Reddit account
Step 2: Post "Hey guys, just watched Nemesis. Did the Romulans have any experience with androids/AI before B4?" in r/StarTrek
Step 3: Get hundreds of replies with every mention of Romulan AI/Cybernetics throughout all of Star Trek.

Maybe they did. Who knows, but again I ask the "does it matter?" question. It's a funny little contradiction for sure, but then I've watched similar videos of all the times Data contradicted his own programming and relative invulnerability. As Cork_Exile said, the show couldn't even keep to its own continuity.

Even if they hate AI, I'm sure Romulans still have cyberneticists. Hacking is a crime, but the FBI (and private companies) still hire hackers in their ranks as part of their cyber-warfare departments.

Evade wrote: »

Five mentions in 118 comments isn't exactly rampant Kurtzman bashing.

I was, to use the vernacular, joking Evade.

Rawr

Evade wrote: »

That's quite a leap. Far more likely Setal was implying the Romulan cybernetecists would take him apart to examine him.

I'd be inclined to think this way too. They'd probably want to find out what make him tick....so that they could better kill any more Soone androids that might turn up.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Maybe they did. Who knows, but again I ask the "does it matter?" question. It's a funny little contradiction for sure, but then I've watched similar videos of all the times Data contradicted his own programming and relative invulnerability. As Cork_Exile said, the show couldn't even keep to its own continuity.

Does it matter to you? Probably not. Does it matter to some people? Yes. Those people are allowed to gripe at stuff like this.

pixelburp wrote: »

Even if they hate AI, I'm sure Romulans still have cyberneticists. Hacking is a crime, but the FBI (and private companies) still hire hackers in their ranks as part of their cyber-warfare departments.

"We don't study cybernetics" - Bean Uí Romulán

pixelburp wrote: »

I was, to use the vernacular, joking Evade.

Very hard to tell in text.

Stark

Evade wrote: »

Does it matter to you? Probably not. Does it matter to some people? Yes. Those people are allowed to gripe at stuff like this.

Just as we're allowed gripe at them.

ilovesmybrick

Evade wrote: »

Bean Uí Romulán

Well, that's the only way Laris should be referred to from now on!

Bean Uí Romulán

Nowhere else on the entire Internet could you say that and people would know what you meant. Except boards.ie in Ireland. I doff my hat to you sir.

ST has been very poor in the past for staying in line with canon.

Was it First Contact where Picard says the Enterprise has 24 decks and then 5 minutes later Ensign Hawke says the Borg occupy decks 22-26?

Whatever about across different series, sometimes it can't even be consistent in single episodes or movies.

Stark

Deleted User wrote: »

Was it First Contact where Picard says the Enterprise has 24 decks and then 5 minutes later Ensign Hawke says the Borg occupy decks 22-26?

Maybe it doesn't have a deck 13 because it's "unlucky"

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

Does it matter to you? Probably not. Does it matter to some people? Yes. Those people are allowed to gripe at stuff like this.

And we're allowed gripe in return. And so it goes. But when you got Spock smiling like a loon over some alien plants, there's an element of "eh, don't worry about it" when it's just a passing conversation from one specific episode.

Evade wrote: »

"We don't study cybernetics" - Bean Uí Romulán

Yeah, "we" which can be taken to mean ordinary Romulans; but hardly a stretch to say if they hate AI that much, there would be divisions, departments and whatnot whose calling is to "know thy enemy". There are real world analogues with the FBI as said, Sure in this very episode we see a Romulan task force running a decommissioned Borg Sphere, so doesn't look like they're utterly divorced from the technology of non-organics.

Rawr

Evade wrote: »

Bean Uí Romulán

Romulán-an-tig?

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Nowhere else on the entire Internet could you say that and people would know what you meant. Except boards.ie in Ireland. I doff my hat to you sir.

The only benefit of 60% of my formal education being in Irish

Deleted User wrote: »

ST has been very poor in the past for staying in line with canon.

Was it First Contact where Picard says the Enterprise has 24 decks and then 5 minutes later Ensign Hawke says the Borg occupy decks 22-26?

Whatever about across different series, sometimes it can't even be consistent in single episodes or movies.

All true. We can, and do, gripe at that too.

pixelburp wrote: »

And we're allowed gripe in return. And so it goes. But when you got Spock smiling like a loon over some alien plants, there's an element of "eh, don't worry about it" when it's just a passing conversation from one specific episode.

You can rebutt them, sure, but once you start griping at people for having an opinion you're not really talking about Star Trek anymore.

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah, "we" which can be taken to mean ordinary Romulans; but hardly a stretch to say if they hate AI that much, there would be divisions, departments and whatnot whose calling is to "know thy enemy". There are real world analogues with the FBI as said, Sure in this very episode we see a Romulan task force running a decommissioned Borg Sphere, so doesn't look like they're utterly divorced from the technology of non-organics.

She wasn't an ordinary Romulan, she was Tal Shiar so my reading was "we" referred to all of Romulan society, bar the double super secret Romulan spies, as she would be in a position to know.

I though the implication was the Romulans on the Borg cube were the double super secret Romulan spies?

CramCycle

Deleted User wrote: »

The Romulans shown to have been working, with Romulan Tech in Trek 2009.
The Nerada, which comes from Picard's timeline, was augmented with Borg tech. It started as a simple mining ship

Did I miss this, I just thought that was the Romulan look, did they actually say it was Borg?

Endaaaagh wrote: »

Maybe Laris and Zhaban are Zhat Vash! :eek:
That would fill the plot hole about how he got home after the explosion!

Well they are Tal Shiar, it would be silly though, why hang around with Picard for 10 years?

Goodshape wrote: »

Yeah – given all the dream sequences in the first two episodes, having Picard just wake up on the couch after such a big and dramatic scene was a bit of a misstep.

Laris or yer man did say something like "there was an explosion, they brought you back here".


To be honest, if there isn't some reveal coming in a not-too-later episode, the whole Dahj character seems badly handled from start to finish. Seemed so important when introduced... then she just died. OH NO!! Except... doesn't matter at all. Picard just wakes up at home, nobody's investigating her death or even the explosion, and "there is another".

Almost feels like unnecessary filler. Could all have been handled better.

I thought Picard reviewed the footage and it was heavily edited, the girl wsn't in the video at all, the Romulan agents were not there etc. This was due to the romulan spies in starfleet covering it up. I thought it was fine. He got knocked out by an exploision, medical doctors looked him over, he was grand, they dropped him home. It is kind of the way healthcare should be.

Evade wrote: »

I though the implication was the Romulans on the Borg cube were the double super secret Romulan spies?

I thought the implication was the Romulan Free State owned the cube through Salvage but they allow starfleet and other visitors visit, kind of like a work or student visa system in the interests of cooperation.

Rawr

CramCycle wrote: »

Did I miss this, I just thought that was the Romulan look, did they actually say it was Borg?

There was a tie-in "Countdown" comic which fleshes out Nero a bit more than the movie and also throws in the whole thing about Borg-tech in his ship.

Never read it, so not sure...

Evade

Rawr wrote: »

There was a tie-in "Countdown" comic which fleshes out Nero a bit more than the movie and also throws in the whole thing about Borg-tech in his ship.

Never read it, so not sure...

It has Data/B4 as captain so it might not be that reliable.

Evade

CramCycle wrote: »

I thought the implication was the Romulan Free State owned the cube through Salvage but they allow starfleet and other visitors visit, kind of like a work or student visa system in the interests of cooperation.

Doubtful the Federation races are Starfleet.

CramCycle

Rawr wrote: »

There was a tie-in "Countdown" comic which fleshes out Nero a bit more than the movie and also throws in the whole thing about Borg-tech in his ship.

Never read it, so not sure...

So completely unnecessary, I always just presumed it was a blunt instrument mining ship that happened to be pretty much at a planet destroyer level

Evade wrote: »

Doubtful the Federation races are Starfleet.

Sorry, I got the impression they were from different academies / institutions etc. So they are something and have visas for research etc.

Another question, the borg they were stripping, were they still alive, I can hear a heart beat going 90. Does it die or are they actually trying to save them?

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

So completely unnecessary, I always just presumed it was a blunt instrument mining ship that happened to be pretty much at a planet destroyer level


Sorry, I got the impression they were from different academies / institutions etc. So they are something and have visas for research etc.

Another question, the borg they were stripping, were they still alive, I can hear a heart beat going 90. Does it die or are they actually trying to save them?

There looked to be reclaimed drones on the ship

Evade

CramCycle wrote: »

Sorry, I got the impression they were from different academies / institutions etc. So they are something and have visas for research etc.

They're supposed to be from science academies but I'm putting my money on all of them being synths.

Ok so I rewatched Ep: 1
They said that the police brought him back and that the security feeds did not show anyone but Picard. We have footage of doctored security feeds.

I can take it that the writers just wanted him home, to push the story along (or Bean Uí Romulan could be with the agents). Picard being killed would have a lot of officers interesting in finding out how, so can take it that they left him alive.

There is, at least, a big of wiggle room in my head now.

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok so I rewatched Ep: 1
They said that the police brought him back and that the security feeds did not show anyone but Picard. We have footage of doctored security feeds.

Doctored the security feeds to edit out the attack I can buy, but what about the physical damage from the explosion? It's still a hole, literally and metaphorically

odyssey06

odyssey06 wrote: »

Doctored the security feeds to edit out the attack I can buy, but what about the physical damage from the explosion? It's still a hole, literally and metaphorically

Yeah but it's down to general errors, at that stage. Stuff you get in several episodes of Trek (of you could say that they just cleaned up super quick, with tech)

pixelburp

Depends who sent him home; we've seen now that there are sections of Fed. security in league with the Romulans; presumably then with Daj(s) dead & the evidence buried, the conspirators were arrogant and cocky enough to send Picard home, figuring a doddery & concussed Admiral with nothing but rambling conspiracy is little threat.

Evade

odyssey06 wrote: »

Doctored the security feeds to edit out the attack I can buy, but what about the physical damage from the explosion? It's still a hole, literally and metaphorically

Or the fact that it was in the middle a very populated city.

TheValeyard

pixelburp wrote: »

Depends who sent him home; we've seen now that there are sections of Fed. security in league with the Romulans; presumably then with Daj(s) dead & the evidence buried, the conspirators were arrogant and cocky enough to send Picard home, figuring a doddery & concussed Admiral with nothing but rambling conspiracy is little threat.

Maybe the Romulan agents did a little surgery when he was knocked out by the blast. Might explain the lobe issue. But I still think he has Irumodic Syndrome

seamus

Into a bit of a rabbit-hole in terms of the reddit thread and AI, but I can't help but wonder if there's going to be some kind of tie-in between Discovery and this new anti-AI Romulan organisation.

CramCycle

pixelburp wrote: »

we've seen now that there are sections of Fed. security in league with the Romulans

I took it they were undercover, not in league, as in they are Romulans disguised as humans

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

I took it they were undercover, not in league, as in they are Romulans disguised as humans

Yeah same, and the commodore would easily be able to suppress alerts

pixelburp

CramCycle wrote: »

I took it they were undercover, not in league, as in they are Romulans disguised as humans

In league in the sense that there were operatives working in high enough positions of Security, they could massage any investigation or response to an explosion on the roof of Starfleet HQ.

Obviously, they should have killed Picard and claimed it was an accident gone wrong, but then we wouldn't have a show

FGR

I do wonder how they explained the explosion. Considering its shown on footage you'd think the police would query how that happened.

Yester

I'm enjoying it so far. I just hope it's not all happening inside Picards head.