Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

SwordsRunner

Sonics2k wrote: »

I think for the show, it makes far more sense they appear as guest spots, maybe once a season.

Anymore than that and it becomes Star Trek: The Next Generation: The Previous Generation.

Would still be better than Discovery

AMKC

blade1 wrote: »

A little off topic but just realized the other day that The Next Generation season 1 is showing on Pick.
I was 15 watching it when it first aired and now I'm the same age as Patrick Stewart was in it. :eek:

I was half your age when it first aired. So I guess that means I am still younger Picard when he was in it

TheValeyard

So, I'd like to see a map of the Quadrant. Wonder what the territory of the Romulan Free State is? Is the Empire still around?

Slydice

TheValeyard wrote: »

So, I'd like to see a map of the Quadrant. Wonder what the territory of the Romulan Free State is? Is the Empire still around?

Rewind to the meeting in the Admirals Office and look at the display in the background

odyssey06

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Plus you would/will/have have the element who would/will/have say "Oh desperation. Look, they have to wheel all the rest of them out"

Mind you, I reckon they should ship O'Brien over from the Daystrom Institute: "Who's yer wan? Jaysus, the accent on her, wha?"

When I heard cheeky feckers I thought I had switched onto Fair City by mistake!

Spear

I reckon that maybe 50% of the episode seemed purely functional. And I suspect that's because I knew where the story was going, and that in turn is due to the ads spoiling far too much of it. Does anyone else think they'd have found the episode, or indeed the series as a whole, more enjoyable if they had gone into it completely blind?

Venom

Spear wrote: »

I reckon that maybe 50% of the episode seemed purely functional. And I suspect that's because I knew where the story was going, and that in turn is due to the ads spoiling far too much of it. Does anyone else think they'd have found the episode, or indeed the series as a whole, more enjoyable if they had gone into it completely blind?

The trailers showing so many of the guest star's really ruined a good deal of any "holy **** it's X" moments the season might have had, which is a real shame as Picard alone was more than enough to get fans onboard.


As for episode 2 itself, really liked it overall apart from the f-bomb which was just jarring and the Romulan super duper extra secret shadowy organization the previously established Romulan super secret shadowy Tal Shair are scared of crap!

Dr Bob

'Romulan Free State '
ahhh well that explains why Laris gets to say feckers and have an Irish accent
( actually I'd love to know the in universe explanation for it )

Slydice

Dr Bob wrote: »

'Romulan Free State '
ahhh well that explains why Laris gets to say feckers and have an Irish accent
( actually I'd love to know the in universe explanation for it )

I've been guessing that at least a sizeable amount of the 900,000,000 Romulans would be rescued in at least part of the Admiral Picard/Federation rescue operation.

Currently our entire planet has "70.8 million people around the world have been forced from home" so even if we only got 100,000,000 Romulans, I'd say many would've shared homes with the people of Earth.

With that in mind, I imagine many were taken in by the Irish. Plenty of cultural exchange possible there. It's not like all the Romulans would be stuck on logic like the Vulcans


Another possibility that came to mind was that maybe some went to the Mariposa colony.


Reason I'm more taken to the Ireland idea was the idea that it might lead to an appearance of O'Brien.

Goodshape

Spear wrote: »

Does anyone else think they'd have found the episode, or indeed the series as a whole, more enjoyable if they had gone into it completely blind?

Absolutely, yes. And this episode might have seemed a lot better if I wasn't watching it while waiting for Riker or Troi or Seven or Hugh to show up.

But what can you do.

Dr Bob wrote: »

'Romulan Free State '
ahhh well that explains why Laris gets to say feckers and have an Irish accent
( actually I'd love to know the in universe explanation for it )

I read or heard somewhere, and remember thinking it sounding official, that Romulan refugees picked up the accent of wherever they ended up on Earth. Laris learned English in Ireland, so an Irish accent she has.

// Edit:: this article: https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/star-trek-picard-ireland-691289

"That scene was written differently," Chabon tells JOE. "She was supposed to say 'Those sneaky bastards', but she said 'Bastards doesn't sound right', so we asked 'What would?' and she said 'Feckers!', so we said 'Okay!'"

"But we did, actually very consciously, feel that indigenous accents were okay," Goldsman adds. "Just as you have people that have learned English versus American, Romulans can have learned the language wherever they learned it, and as such could carry that accent, which for us was much more authentic than trying to create a kind of Anglocised, mid-Atlantic thing that often happens in science fiction."

delly

I liked Ep1, but felt this was not as gripping with a lot of exposition and techno talk. I find the background music a little overbearing in a lot of scenes and the shots of a lot of the interactions betweens characters are too tight, with a lot of rigidity.

Stark

Mixed bag episode.

I like Orla Brady, in some ways her performance reminds me of the kinds of performances Michelle Gomez gives. The technobabble stuff was a bit much though. Again, I think it comes down to only having a 10 episode run and having to rush through certain pieces of the storyline.

The Commodore was a terrible actress and her lieutenant accomplice wasn't much better. The whole scene felt like their bodies were frozen and only their mouths were allowed move.

The dissection of the Borg scene I thought was great and I think undid some of the damage Voyager/First Contact did to the Borg. Really brought back home the violations inflicted on the misfortunate individuals who found themselves part of the Borg Collective.

I liked the "do you not know who I am scene" followed by having to slap on the ridiculous looking Starfleet "visitor" badge. Seemed like the young cadet knew exactly who he was but was under orders to make him go through the full sign-in process to take him down a peg.

velo.2010 wrote: »

This is what I suspect and is the ultimate example of the SPECTRE like, retconning bull**** that I mentioned above. Its implied that the Romulans gave up on the technology that helped them develop what would ultimately become... the Borg. The Borg originated in the Delta Quadrant and developed over thousands of years and nothing in Trek's history has indicated otherwise. A look at the 'Star Trek universe' map puts the Romulans as far away from Borg space as can be. There could be a swerve as its early yet - we may find out that the Federation were somehow involved too. I don't know but it doesn't bode well that they pulling a lot of narrative strokes to push the story forward.

Hopefully it's just the fans over-interpreting things. We had the same with Discovery and fans everywhere speculating that "Control" was the origin of the Borg and it turned out to be nothing in the end (thankfully).

But I definitely think the Romulans had encounters with the Borg before the Federation encountered them. Maybe even as far back as soon after the TOS era.

Might explain species 180...

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Might explain species 180...

True, how else could the Ferengi have made contact, something very unusual must have happened.

TheValeyard

Stark wrote: »

Hopefully it's just the fans over-interpreting things. We had the same with Discovery and fans everywhere speculating that "Control" was the origin of the Borg and it turned out to be nothing in the end (thankfully).

But I definitely think the Romulans had encounters with the Borg before the Federation encountered them. Maybe even as far back as soon after the TOS era.

We have definitely not seen the last of Control. And connections may yet be made.

They seem to be taking some of their ideas from Star Trek Online. The Romulans there were experimenting on Borg tech. Also the game had the Romulan Republic (Free State). While whats left of the empire was secretly under the influence of the Iconians.

silverharp

what was the weird editing with the seamless conversation switching between 2 locations , not a great episode overall , it was kind of funny though they should have called the epidose women shouting at Picard

Rawr

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Nah can't see it to be honest - but that said, remember that when the Romulans first returned in TNG, they explained that other more urgent matters demanded their absence.

It's generally thought that this meant the Borg (who were expected to be introduced a lot earlier than they were). It's very possible that the Cube in this new show dates from that time or just that they've had a lot more time and experience with Borg tech than probably anyone bar Picard, Seven and the Voyager crew.

My crazy earlier theory about "TNG:The Neutral Zone" is still feeling like it might be on the money.

So, the Romulans now have a ancient / near-religious hatred for artificial life. If they've been fighting back the Borg for many years, that might explain why they feel this way They also seem to know an awful lot about how a Borg Cube breaks away from the Collective (although that could be new knowledge.)

Liked Episode 2. The absense of Dahj kind of helped (her appearances in Ep1 were kind of a low point). However as Dr. Soji, the actress was a good bit better.

I did enjoy the whole Mars sequence and the budget Data-clones were suitably creepy. Some aspects of the Borg Cube did kind of remind me a little of how dangerous the Borg used to be back in the TNG days. Let's hope they don't pull a Voyager in all of this and neuter the Borg again.

I was alas a little bored with the whole cloak and dagger stuff at Starfleet.
"Oh no...the Commorde is probably a Romulan pretending to be Vulcan"
"Oh no...that Lieutenant is a Romulan disguised as a Human"
"On no...something something something...don't get in my way or else...."

It just felt kind of flat and boring. I hope there's going to more intersting elements to the plot going ahead.

Looks like we're meeting the first member of Picard's new crew now...so far she seems interesting, might be good.

i enjoyed it, didn't think it was as good as ep 1 but still good.

i didn't see any trailers or ads people were referring to, maybe it helped
i like orla brady

TheValeyard

TheValeyard wrote: »

We have definitely not seen the last of Control. And connections may yet be made.

They seem to be taking some of their ideas from Star Trek Online. The Romulans there were experimenting on Borg tech. Also the game had the Romulan Republic (Free State). While whats left of the empire was secretly under the influence of the Iconians.

The Romulans shown to have been working, with Romulan Tech in Trek 2009.
The Nerada, which comes from Picard's timeline, was augmented with Borg tech. It started as a simple mining ship

The White Wolf

I've tried the first two episodes with an open mind; first episode was OK but this one was awful.

Kurtzman really is a hack, putting aside Star Trek for a moment what he did with The Mummy should tell you everything you need to know about him.

FutureGuy

Rewatched the second episode last night and enjoyed it more the second time around.

silverharp

The White Wolf wrote: »

I've tried the first two episodes with an open mind; first episode was OK but this one was awful.

Kurtzman really is a hack, putting aside Star Trek for a moment what he did with The Mummy should tell you everything you need to know about him.

They had the cheek to put the line in about not getting sifi. We hear you klutzman

pah

silverharp wrote: »

They had the cheek to put the line in about not getting sifi. We hear you klutzman

I was waiting for Picard to say he was always a fan of Star Wars though :rolleyes:

pixelburp

I thought it was a very typical second episode of a serialised show: the intrigue was expanded, we met a couple of new characters and the plot only shuffles along. It was fine, in the hot afterglow of the punchy opener it was likely to flatline a little, having to pull more narrative weight than the premiere episode.

The argument between the admiral and Picard could have done with a little expanding because honestly, I'm kinda with the Fed here. The Romulans were a hostile race, and not exactly honourable allies during the Dominion war. I'd imagine a lot of border systems were looking over their shoulders because of them (correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they openly invade space during the Dominion conflict?), so crisis or not, expending resources to save that world/system was not a politically sensitive move. Picard came across stubborn and unilateral, easy to be the idealist from the sidelines without dealing with revolt from allied worlds.

The Borg stuff also added a little bit of threat and mystery back to them. The small moments of gore a suitable reminder of the actual horror of the concept. There's going to be an "outbreak" though, right? Rogue units trying to re-establish the collective. There HAS to be - that "X days since last assimilation" could never be a simple visual nod, and must be Checkovs Signage.

Rawr

pixelburp wrote: »

The Borg stuff also added a little bit of threat and mystery back to them. The small moments of gore a suitable reminder of the actual horror of the concept. There's going to be an "outbreak" though, right? Rogue units trying to re-establish the collective. There HAS to be - that "X days since last assimilation" could never be a simple visual nod, and must be Checkovs Signage.

That was a bit I actually enjoyed a good bit and did genuinely feel like the old Borg I loved and well...feared.

There was a bit where Dr. Soji was helping out remove the "equipment-arm" from a drone. Then, while a "heart-beat" was being played, she started messing about with the drone's "normal" arm. All could think was: "ASSIMILATION TUBULAS!! Get the F*** away from that you IDIOT!! Get out!! Get out now!!"

It's been a while since I felt that about a Borg moment. It's good that they can see make them fearful.

Slydice

Eh... maybe not..

https://twitter.com/startrekcbs/status/1224075015437504512

pixelburp

There's not enough money (or gold pressed latinum) in the world that'd drag me there.

TheIrishGrover

Stark

Oh I dunno. I've heard it's full of hot Romulans looking to seduce you.

Goodshape

Enjoyed it more on a second viewing!

pixelburp wrote: »

The argument between the admiral and Picard could have done with a little expanding because honestly, I'm kinda with the Fed here. The Romulans were a hostile race, and not exactly honourable allies during the Dominion war. I'd imagine a lot of border systems were looking over their shoulders because of them (correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they openly invade space during the Dominion conflict?), so crisis or not, expending resources to save that world/system was not a politically sensitive move. Picard came across stubborn and unilateral, easy to be the idealist from the sidelines without dealing with revolt from allied worlds.

Could definitely see her point of view. Could also see, in a utopian Star Trek: TNG sort of way, how Picard arrived at his decisions.

silverharp

The tech is getting stupid at this stage , how can you have a device that essentially can go back in time to see what people might have been doing there in the past, the idea that people leave enough traces that you can reconstruct them and their conversations is just dumb, its basically magic. Then in the first episode, how could you wan jump up over what was several flights of stairs, isn’t she supposed to be a positronic brain in a human body, even Data could not have done 5% of that.

AMKC

silverharp wrote: »

The tech is getting stupid at this stage , how can you have a device that essentially can go back in time to see what people might have been doing there in the past, the idea that people leave enough traces that you can reconstruct them and their conversations is just dumb, its basically magic. Then in the first episode, how could you wan jump up over what was several flights of stairs, isn’t she supposed to be a positronic brain in a human body, even Data could not have done 5% of that.

I am sure there was another series that had something similar. Think it might have been ''Continuam''
It is a bit silly but hay its a series, it has Patrick Stewart in it and its enjoyable as well so it did bother me really. The changing between the Apartment and his home while doing it was more annoying.

As for . I am not sure yet. Maybe when Picard meet Soni we will find out more.

Scott Tenorman

Not enjoying this at all so far but it has Picard so i will continue to watch, hopefully it improves.

TheValeyard

AMKC wrote: »

I am sure there was another series that had something similar. Think it might have been ''Continuam''
It is a bit silly but hay its a series, it has Patrick Stewart in it and its enjoyable as well so it did bother me really. The changing between the Apartment and his home while doing it was more annoying.

As for . I am not sure yet. Maybe when Picard meet Soni we will find out more.

Its also in a couple of computer games, Like the 'Beast Inside', 'Deus Ex' etc. Actually may be more common than I thought the more I think about it.

Batman Arkham series too

TheIrishGrover

silverharp wrote: »

The tech is getting stupid at this stage , how can you have a device that essentially can go back in time to see what people might have been doing there in the past, the idea that people leave enough traces that you can reconstruct them and their conversations is just dumb, its basically magic. Then in the first episode, how could you wan jump up over what was several flights of stairs, isn’t she supposed to be a positronic brain in a human body, even Data could not have done 5% of that.

I could see how they would "justify" it to a degree:

Oh we are getting more DNA traces here from two people which would suggest they were sitting in this position for some time and then, at some stage he went to the replicator. We also pick up traces of wine so can determine they were drinking. We have fiber traces so we can determine what they were wearing..... yadda yadda yadds (Of course the "cheeky feicers" scrubbed the place. So...)

But regarding sounds, music etc..... Yeah, magic.

Of course Laris Nì Romulàn could actually be still working for the Tal Shiar (Or however you spell it) or that mystery group and is just stringing him along.

Or, both Romulans could just be in his head.

Did they explain how he ended up at home, post explosion?

Rawr

Deleted User wrote: »

Did they explain how he ended up at home, post explosion?

It was a big blast. He probably bounced a couple of times and landed back in France

I am kidding, but yes that did seem odd. Surely he'd wake up at a local hospital or at Starfleet Command's sickbay, before being sent home.

odyssey06

Rawr wrote: »

It was a big blast. He probably bounced a couple of times and landed back in France
I am kidding, but yes that did seem odd. Surely he'd wake up at a local hospital or at Starfleet Command's sickbay, before being sent home.

And eh, was no one concerned about the blast cause?
24th century equivalent of 'gas explosion', nothing to see here, please move along...
Did I miss that being explained on screen?

Rawr

odyssey06 wrote: »

And eh, was no one concerned about the blast cause?
24th century equivalent of 'gas explosion', nothing to see here, please move along...
Did I miss that being explained on screen?

They didn't seem to bother explaining it. Which is a bit of a plot hole I feel. I wonder if something was cut out there.

Rawr

Rawr wrote: »

They didn't seem to bother explaining it. Which is a bit of a plot hole I feel. I wonder if something was cut out there.

It is a definitive plot hole. Is Picard imagining it, did his Romulans come get him, does he have emergency transporter in case of medical issues?
The the secret Romulans feel that it was too dangerous to take out a figure such as Picard?

Or did the writers just make a balls?
Because right now it puts the whole story on shaky ground.
If it's intentional then it could actually be very good but if the writers just made a mistake it's a bad one

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is a definitive plot hole. Is Picard imagining it, did his Romulans come get him, does he have emergency transporter in case of medical issues?
The the secret Romulans feel that it was too dangerous to take out a figure such as Picard?

Or did the writers just make a balls?
Because right now it puts the whole story on shaky ground

I'm thinking Romulans bailed out, too big a scene made, mission accomplished. Then Starfleet security are covering it up. That whole evil admiral thing.

odyssey06

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'm thinking Romulans bailed out, too big a scene made, mission accomplished. Then Starfleet security are covering it up. That whole evil admiral thing.

I thought there might be a cover-up but strange that Picard didn't bring it up when meeting Admiral Clancy - who seemed on the level if a bit naive.

TheValeyard

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'm thinking Romulans bailed out, too big a scene made, mission accomplished. Then Starfleet security are covering it up. That whole evil admiral thing.

Why not make Picard disappear too?
Why was he not at a hospital?

How did he end up at home?

Ball dropped on this one, I think

Stark

I got the impression there were a lot of scenes dropped on the editing room floor there. Would be great to see a cut with deleted scenes included if such a thing exists.

Evade

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed another group that had something to do with Picard getting home.

Endaaaagh

Evade wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed another group that had something to do with Picard getting home.

Maybe Laris and Zhaban are Zhat Vash! :eek:
That would fill the plot hole about how he got home after the explosion!

Goodshape

Yeah – given all the dream sequences in the first two episodes, having Picard just wake up on the couch after such a big and dramatic scene was a bit of a misstep.

Laris or yer man did say something like "there was an explosion, they brought you back here".


To be honest, if there isn't some reveal coming in a not-too-later episode, the whole Dahj character seems badly handled from start to finish. Seemed so important when introduced... then she just died. OH NO!! Except... doesn't matter at all. Picard just wakes up at home, nobody's investigating her death or even the explosion, and "there is another".

Almost feels like unnecessary filler. Could all have been handled better.

pixelburp

I didn't mind the line, or sudden re-appearance back in his villa, what broke the Suspension of Disbelief for me was how we saw Picard get flung backwards by the shockwave of the explosion. Federation medicine or not, that should have killed him straight out, especially given we had only just see him struggle to run up the stairs to the roof in the first place!

TomSweeney

velo.2010 wrote: »

....
'I never really cared for science fiction... I guess, I just didn't get it'. If, as I expect, that was a consciously provocative line inserted by Stewart and the writers, then he can piss off. Sci-fi and Star Trek has given Stewart so much and to diminish it on screen, is to insult so many fans of him and the show. Very poor.

....

I actually like that line, and I didn't see it as an insult to the fans, more that this is the real world to these characters !


My uncle hates Sci Fi but he lives with modern tech,uses an iPhone, iPad etc ... drives a hybrid, it's just life, now imagine some 1890 play with a plot like that ? would it be considered Jules Verne type stuff ??