Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Rawr

Rawr wrote: »

They didn't seem to bother explaining it. Which is a bit of a plot hole I feel. I wonder if something was cut out there.

It is a definitive plot hole. Is Picard imagining it, did his Romulans come get him, does he have emergency transporter in case of medical issues?
The the secret Romulans feel that it was too dangerous to take out a figure such as Picard?

Or did the writers just make a balls?
Because right now it puts the whole story on shaky ground.
If it's intentional then it could actually be very good but if the writers just made a mistake it's a bad one

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is a definitive plot hole. Is Picard imagining it, did his Romulans come get him, does he have emergency transporter in case of medical issues?
The the secret Romulans feel that it was too dangerous to take out a figure such as Picard?

Or did the writers just make a balls?
Because right now it puts the whole story on shaky ground

I'm thinking Romulans bailed out, too big a scene made, mission accomplished. Then Starfleet security are covering it up. That whole evil admiral thing.

odyssey06

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'm thinking Romulans bailed out, too big a scene made, mission accomplished. Then Starfleet security are covering it up. That whole evil admiral thing.

I thought there might be a cover-up but strange that Picard didn't bring it up when meeting Admiral Clancy - who seemed on the level if a bit naive.

TheValeyard

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'm thinking Romulans bailed out, too big a scene made, mission accomplished. Then Starfleet security are covering it up. That whole evil admiral thing.

Why not make Picard disappear too?
Why was he not at a hospital?

How did he end up at home?

Ball dropped on this one, I think

Stark

I got the impression there were a lot of scenes dropped on the editing room floor there. Would be great to see a cut with deleted scenes included if such a thing exists.

Evade

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed another group that had something to do with Picard getting home.

Endaaaagh

Evade wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed another group that had something to do with Picard getting home.

Maybe Laris and Zhaban are Zhat Vash! :eek:
That would fill the plot hole about how he got home after the explosion!

Goodshape

Yeah – given all the dream sequences in the first two episodes, having Picard just wake up on the couch after such a big and dramatic scene was a bit of a misstep.

Laris or yer man did say something like "there was an explosion, they brought you back here".


To be honest, if there isn't some reveal coming in a not-too-later episode, the whole Dahj character seems badly handled from start to finish. Seemed so important when introduced... then she just died. OH NO!! Except... doesn't matter at all. Picard just wakes up at home, nobody's investigating her death or even the explosion, and "there is another".

Almost feels like unnecessary filler. Could all have been handled better.

pixelburp

I didn't mind the line, or sudden re-appearance back in his villa, what broke the Suspension of Disbelief for me was how we saw Picard get flung backwards by the shockwave of the explosion. Federation medicine or not, that should have killed him straight out, especially given we had only just see him struggle to run up the stairs to the roof in the first place!

TomSweeney

velo.2010 wrote: »

....
'I never really cared for science fiction... I guess, I just didn't get it'. If, as I expect, that was a consciously provocative line inserted by Stewart and the writers, then he can piss off. Sci-fi and Star Trek has given Stewart so much and to diminish it on screen, is to insult so many fans of him and the show. Very poor.

....

I actually like that line, and I didn't see it as an insult to the fans, more that this is the real world to these characters !


My uncle hates Sci Fi but he lives with modern tech,uses an iPhone, iPad etc ... drives a hybrid, it's just life, now imagine some 1890 play with a plot like that ? would it be considered Jules Verne type stuff ??

TomSweeney

TomSweeney wrote: »

I actually like that line, and I didn't see it as an insult to the fans, more that this is the real world to these characters !


My uncle hates Sci Fi but he lives with modern tech,uses an iPhone, iPad etc ... drives a hybrid, it's just life, now imagine some 1890 play with a plot like that ? would it be considered Jules Verne type stuff ??

Pill's character should have just said "Admiral, you kinda lived it!"

Burty330

Whats with Federation personnel coming off as evil villains. I guess figures of authority can't be the good guys anymore to the likes Alex Hackzman and his ilk.
What does this Klutz get from having that Federation officer deprive Picard the respect he deserved to receive as he approached the terminal?

You mean to tell me this guy doesn't know Picard when he's right there in front of him??? Even when the star ship Luc piloted for the majority of his life if hovering right above his frickin head as a hologram?!!!


This vision of Trek according to Hackzman where a man of Picards stature gets snapped and yelled at by star fleet command is antithetical to the vision Rodenbury had for Trek.. Even Gerordie can see that.

Speaking of Geordie , if there was a bromance with Data , it was with Geordie , not Picard. Picard was much closer to Riker

Burty330

Burty330 wrote: »

Whats with Federation personnel coming off as evil villains. I guess figures of authority can't be the good guys anymore to the likes Alex Hackzman and his ilk.
What does this Klutz get from having that Federation officer deprive Picard the respect he deserved to receive as he approached the terminal?

You mean to tell me this guy doesn't know Picard when he's right there in front of him??? Even when the star ship Luc piloted for the majority of his life if hovering right above his frickin head as a hologram?!!!


This vision of Trek according to Hackzman where a man of Picards stature gets snapped and yelled at by star fleet command is antithetical to the vision Rodenbury had for Trek.. Even Gerordie can see that.

Speaking of Geordie , if there was a bromance with Data , it was with Geordie , not Picard. Picard was much closer to Riker

I've seen a security guard fired for not asking the Regional Director for his ID card, ignoring that this same Director was happy enough to drive in daily without getting carded.

The mistake the guard made? Not realising that the director also had his boss in the car at the time.

Picard should know better than to expect to circumvent regulations, that young officer must ask these questions.

Burty330

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen a security guard fired for not asking the Regional Director for his ID card, ignoring that this same Director was happy enough to drive in daily without getting carded.

The mistake the guard made? Not realising that the director also had his boss in the car at the time.

Picard should know better than to expect to circumvent regulations, that young officer must ask these questions.

I don't know what you're talking about!

That young officer legit did not know who Picard was. . Its like an intern working in Microsoft not knowing who Bill Gates is.

The same stupid scene was seen in the latest James Bond trailer , which i can forgive given Bond is a secret agent and wotnot

Picard is a historical figure who saved the world from Borg assimilation. He is known by everybody in SF from top to bottom.

Pitiful writing from fools who clearly don't respect the lore. But why would they , respecting the lore will only cost them more bobs in licencing fee's.

pixelburp

Think even by the standards of Trek, you're reading too much into a single, throwaway scene that while not played for laughs, was a wry underlining that "this isn't the same Starfleet Picard left, and times have moved on".

They respected the lore enough to callback to Best of Both Worlds, where, IIRC, the reversion of Borg tech left Picard with potential issues in the "parietal lobe" down the line. And lookie here.

Stark

Totally missed that. Thought Picard's parietal lobe issue was congenital.

pixelburp

Stark wrote: »

Totally missed that. Thought Picard's parietal lobe issue was congenital.

I've tried to look it up again, but failed to find the ref so it's not a guarantee, but AFAIK Data told Picard that a result of the De'borgification would be parietal lobe issues in later life. If true, it paints this blather about respecting the lore in a new light, cos there's clearly effort being put into research

Rawr

pixelburp wrote: »

I've tried to look it up again, but failed to find the ref so it's not a guarantee, but AFAIK Data told Picard that a result of the De'borgification would be parietal lobe issues in later life. If true, it paints this blather about respecting the lore in a new light, cos there's clearly effort being put into research

I was kind of guessing that all of this was a reference to Irumodic Syndrome, which alternate future Picard had around about now in All Good Things.

Memory Alpha wrote:

In the anti-time present, while seeking evidence that he could already have Irumodic Syndrome, Picard was informed by Beverly Crusher that while he did not have the disease itself, he did have a small structural defect in his parietal lobe that could lead to a number of neurological disorders, including Irumodic Syndrome. The defect was so small it required a level 4 neurographic scan to be located.

fritzelly

Re being asked who he was at the security desk, took it as following procedure. The smile on his face and then saying nice to see you up and about Admiral

Rawr

Rawr wrote: »

I was kind of guessing that all of this was a reference to Irumodic Syndrome, which alternate future Picard had around about now in All Good Things.

And it was the proof, which Picard needed, to prove that the time shifts were real (along with the extra memory engrams)

pah

Evade wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed another group that had something to do with Picard getting home.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's never explained

Evade

Romulans don't do AI?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85J1l76hCUc

pixelburp

With 178 episodes of The Next Generation, I'd challenge any self-confessed Trek fan to write a script that's 100% canon-proof. I daresay the show tripped itself up plenty of times.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

With 178 episodes of The Next Generation, I'd challenge any self-confessed Trek fan to write a script that's 100% canon-proof. I daresay the show tripped itself up plenty of times.

Roddenberry was actually quite reckless with canon, himself. If something new made more sense, it took priority.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

With 178 episodes of The Next Generation, I'd challenge any self-confessed Trek fan to write a script that's 100% canon-proof. I daresay the show tripped itself up plenty of times.

It absolutely did but checking this kind of thing is a lot easier now than it was then.

Stark

There are direct contradictions all over the place in the canon. In many cases it's impossible to adhere 100% to canon to it as one episode from the back catalog will directly contradict another. Especially with TOS Trek vs TNG-era Trek.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

It absolutely did but checking this kind of thing is a lot easier now than it was then.

If that was the one and only time a Romulan every mentioned cybernetics, I'd quibble that while findable, it wouldn't be without effort & TBH, there's an element of "it doesn't matter".

Cue attached image of Spock grinning from the "The Cage"

Reading the YT comments it just feels like an excuse to bash Kurtzman TBH; who isn't even the showrunner anyway!

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

If that was the one and only time a Romulan every mentioned cybernetics, I'd quibble that while findable, it wouldn't be without effort & TBH, there's an element of "it doesn't matter".

Step 1: Make a throwaway Reddit account
Step 2: Post "Hey guys, just watched Nemesis. Did the Romulans have any experience with androids/AI before B4?" in r/StarTrek
Step 3: Get hundreds of replies with every mention of Romulan AI/Cybernetics throughout all of Star Trek.

pixelburp wrote: »

Reading the YT comments it just feels like an excuse to bash Kurtzman TBH; who isn't even the showrunner anyway!

Five mentions in 118 comments isn't exactly rampant Kurtzman bashing.

Stark

https://www.reddit.com/r/Picard/comments/ewlkum/spoiler_reconciling_episode_2_and_tngs_the/

Full quote was:

Romulan:"I know a host of Romulan cyberneticists that would love to be this close to you."
Data:"I do not find that concept to be particularly appealing."
Romulan:"Nor should you."

Which seems consistent with "Picard". "Cyberneticist" in this case being someone charged with eliminating AI.

Cookie_Monster

Those mars androids remind me strongly of 0718