Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Spear

Since the episode and the spoilers from are now out and about, here's the thread for it.

A few nice throwback references once more, most notably the uromidic syndrome one.

Some plot points made clear, but it's the vaguer ones I thought more enticing, such as the end goal of the Maddox synths.

pah

Why the F-BOMB? I know they are not restricted now with watersheds, broadcasting regs etc but it just feels so wrong and takes me right out of the episode :rolleyes:

Spear

It seemed natural enough, and less jarring than the swearing attempts in Discovery.

It's the comment of "cheeky feckers" from Laris that seemed more out of place.

heebusjeebus

So the woman living in the rural hut was his No. 1 from the Verity (shown in the Countdown comic).

Didn't like this episode as much as the first. The technobabble around finding clues in the Parisian apartment was a bit much for star trek.

heebusjeebus

Spear wrote: »

It's the comment of "cheeky feckers" from Laris that seemed more out of place.

It was subtitled as "cheeky fcukers" in the version I watched.

TheValeyard

I was right

TheValeyard

also,

anyone else thinking the Romulans may have created the Borg?

What if when the Raptor Wing faction left Vulcan after the Logic faction won....there was a third faction? They undertook a very long journey, added cybernetics to themselves on a long journey.

_Kaiser_

TheValeyard wrote: »

also,

anyone else thinking the Romulans may have created the Borg?

What if when the Raptor Wing faction left Vulcan after the Logic faction won....there was a third faction? They undertook a very long journey, added cybernetics to themselves on a long journey.

Nah can't see it to be honest - but that said, remember that when the Romulans first returned in TNG, they explained that other more urgent matters demanded their absence.

It's generally thought that this meant the Borg (who were expected to be introduced a lot earlier than they were). It's very possible that the Cube in this new show dates from that time or just that they've had a lot more time and experience with Borg tech than probably anyone bar Picard, Seven and the Voyager crew.

Slydice

Interesting turn of events. Certainly explains the starfleet logos on the ships that were attacking Mars.

Looks like we're looking right back into the past. I wonder if it'll be around when the Vulcan civil war and Romulan split were happening.

Obviously there's the potential that there'll be time time involved. Maybe .. though unlikely I'd guess.. something like the temporal cold war.

More likely might be a link to how Discovery has been bumping around in time. Maybe (unlikely) something to do with the Discovery AI.

Maybe though, it'll be a time thing from this show only.

For the borg, I'm wondering about how this may be influence by Data and his past relationships with the Borg.

After that... ALPHA QUADRANT MAP!!! .. ahem.. that is to say.. I noticed the alpha quadrant map in the Admirals Office

_Kaiser_

Slydice wrote: »

Interesting turn of events. Certainly explains the starfleet logos on the ships that were attacking Mars.

Looks like we're looking right back into the past. I wonder if it'll be around when the Vulcan civil war and Romulan split were happening.

Obviously there's the potential that there'll be time time involved. Maybe .. though unlikely I'd guess.. something like the temporal cold war.

More likely might be a link to how Discovery has been bumping around in time. Maybe (unlikely) something to do with the Discovery AI.

Maybe though, it'll be a time thing from this show only.

For the borg, I'm wondering about how this may be influence by Data and his past relationships with the Borg.

After that... ALPHA QUADRANT MAP!!! .. ahem.. that is to say.. I noticed the alpha quadrant map in the Admirals Office

I'll have to rewatch

Decent enough this week. Nothing we hadn't really seen in the trailers but the -D looked great (although they've now made the Discovery Enterprise canon ).

I didn't mind the swearing though it did seem odd for a 24th/25th century show. Overall I don't think it was AS good as last week - mostly because it's still setting things up - but enjoyable regardless.

Slydice

The D is a damn fine ship!

https://twitter.com/startrekcbs/status/1222323475072868353

expectationlost

wtf was all that at the start about removing the index blaa blaa blaa, what pointless technobable? (or to be revealed as not pointless at some later point?).

can't stand that actress

velo.2010

That was disappointing.

I'd read, from those who saw the first three episodes, that the show would start to veer off after episode 1, into new territory for the franchise... and boy, did it.

The opening sequence from Utopia Planitia showed what must have been the rescue ferry ships in orbit given the generic starship, double nacelle structure - yet no sign of any familiar starship designs. This event occurred relatively shortly after the end of DS9/Voyager, so it would be expected to see something familiar in orbit. This points to the writers abandoning common canon designs for the era.

We're then presented with the notion that the Tal Shiar are merely small fry in a greater Romulan plot (device), with the so called 'Zhat Vash' at the centre of all Romulan secrecy and xenophobia, with a particular loathing and fear of androids. Christ, didn't they pull that stunt with the Bond franchise... SPECTRE and all that. And as for the 'cheeky feckers' line, I imagine Orla Brady offered that up to the writers as an alternative to some Romulan swear word in the script. It just came off as hokey and pandering. I didn't mind the techno-babble in that scene - I get the impression we won't get too much of it as the show progresses.

The scenes with Soji and Narek don't hold enough tension - its as if both characters are giving the game away to each other this early on. Its strange... as though the writers are not sure how to hold the characters in storytelling stasis before the real stuff kicks off. I've read of rewrites, reshoots and re-editing, and this episode gave the feel of some of those problems. The pacing felt off, too.

Couldn't they just say 'Irumodic Syndrome'? I mean, is there some sort of embargo on certain plot elements or words and phrases from TNG? Are there royalty issues or are the writers not keen to delve too much into past detail? Anyway, time is officially ticking for Picard. Chekov's gun tells us that this will have to play a part at some stage. Could season two see the captain killed off, only for the story to continue with the new cast? I get the feeling that it is a plot device to get the writers out of a hole if Patrick Stewart cannot go on filming for health reasons or otherwise.

While welcome, the Star Trek overture was a bit overdone as Picard approached Starfleet HQ. The scene between Picard and the admiral is emblematic of a lot of what many consider to be wrong with the show - that is, there is a more interesting story to be told about how and why it came to be that the Romulans have such a disdain for the Federation and subsequently vice-versa. There was an indirect reference to the Dominion War and its lasting effects ('we didn't have enough ships'). A follow up to the end of the war could have been an interesting narrative progression of the storyline with the Romulans, but I guess story credits and a new, expensive writing team put paid to that.

I do admit that it's nice to see women in the role as duplicitous and scheming instead of some familiar aged male character actor doing the same old shtick. I'm still processing who is ordering who about, but it was one positive note in the episode.

'I never really cared for science fiction... I guess, I just didn't get it'. If, as I expect, that was a consciously provocative line inserted by Stewart and the writers, then he can piss off. Sci-fi and Star Trek has given Stewart so much and to diminish it on screen, is to insult so many fans of him and the show. Very poor.

TheValeyard wrote: »

also,

anyone else thinking the Romulans may have created the Borg?

This is what I suspect and is the ultimate example of the SPECTRE like, retconning bull**** that I mentioned above. Its implied that the Romulans gave up on the technology that helped them develop what would ultimately become... the Borg. The Borg originated in the Delta Quadrant and developed over thousands of years and nothing in Trek's history has indicated otherwise. A look at the 'Star Trek universe' map puts the Romulans as far away from Borg space as can be. There could be a swerve as its early yet - we may find out that the Federation were somehow involved too. I don't know but it doesn't bode well that they pulling a lot of narrative strokes to push the story forward.

Four award winning story tellers and we get this. I can't help but feel any of the writing crew from TNG, DS9, even Voyager would have done a better job and for a smaller fee - Kurtzman doesn't come cheap. I'll stick with it, only to see how they tie up so many newly loose, plot threads.

Optimus Prime

I loved it, including the Cheeky Feckers line. Its early days for the show so im happy just to wait and see the entire story completed to see how it fits in when its all done. The worst parts for me is with Soji and the Romulan guy, it just seems awkward and rushed, buts its not the worst thing ive seen in a Trek show.

Im just happy to see this show made at all and the fact that im enjoying it a lot is a bonus. Cant wait to see what happens next.

Bandana boy

I am still enjoying it
Loved the 5843 days since an assimilation sign

is_that_so

velo.2010 wrote: »

That was disappointing.

I'd read, from those who saw the first three episodes, that the show would start to veer off after episode 1, into new territory for the franchise... and boy, did it.

The opening sequence from Utopia Planitia showed what must have been the rescue ferry ships in orbit given the generic starship, double nacelle structure - yet no sign of any familiar starship designs. This event occurred relatively shortly after the end of DS9/Voyager, so it would be expected to see something familiar in orbit. This points to the writers abandoning common canon designs for the era.

We're then presented with the notion that the Tal Shiar are merely small fry in a greater Romulan plot (device), with the so called 'Zhat Vash' at the centre of all Romulan secrecy and xenophobia, with a particular loathing and fear of androids. Christ, didn't they pull that stunt with the Bond franchise... SPECTRE and all that. And as for the 'cheeky feckers' line, I imagine Orla Brady offered that up to the writers as an alternative to some Romulan swear word in the script. It just came off as hokey and pandering. I didn't mind the techno-babble in that scene - I get the impression we won't get too much of it as the show progresses.

The scenes with Soji and Narek don't hold enough tension - its as if both characters are giving the game away to each other this early on. Its strange... as though the writers are not sure how to hold the characters in storytelling stasis before the real stuff kicks off. I've read of rewrites, reshoots and re-editing, and this episode gave the feel of some of those problems. The pacing felt off, too.

Couldn't they just say 'Irumodic Syndrome'? I mean, is there some sort of embargo on certain plot elements or words and phrases from TNG? Are there royalty issues or are the writers not keen to delve too much into past detail? Anyway, time is officially ticking for Picard. Chekov's gun tells us that this will have to play a part at some stage. Could season two see the captain killed off, only for the story to continue with the new cast? I get the feeling that it is a plot device to get the writers out of a hole if Patrick Stewart cannot go on filming for health reasons or otherwise.

While welcome, the Star Trek overture was a bit overdone as Picard approached Starfleet HQ. The scene between Picard and the admiral is emblematic of a lot of what many consider to be wrong with the show - that is, there is a more interesting story to be told about how and why it came to be that the Romulans have such a disdain for the Federation and subsequently vice-versa. There was an indirect reference to the Dominion War and its lasting effects ('we didn't have enough ships'). A follow up to the end of the war could have been an interesting narrative progression of the storyline with the Romulans, but I guess story credits and a new, expensive writing team put paid to that.

I do admit that it's nice to see women in the role as duplicitous and scheming instead of some familiar aged male character actor doing the same old shtick. I'm still processing who is ordering who about, but it was one positive note in the episode.

'I never really cared for science fiction... I guess, I just didn't get it'. If, as I expect, that was a consciously provocative line inserted by Stewart and the writers, then he can piss off. Sci-fi and Star Trek has given Stewart so much and to diminish it on screen, is to insult so many fans of him and the show. Very poor.



This is what I suspect and is the ultimate example of the SPECTRE like, retconning bull**** that I mentioned above. Its implied that the Romulans gave up on the technology that helped them develop what would ultimately become... the Borg. The Borg originated in the Delta Quadrant and developed over thousands of years and nothing in Trek's history has indicated otherwise. A look at the 'Star Trek universe' map puts the Romulans as far away from Borg space as can be. There could be a swerve as its early yet - we may find out that the Federation were somehow involved too. I don't know but it doesn't bode well that they pulling a lot of narrative strokes to push the story forward.

Four award winning story tellers and we get this. I can't help but feel any of the writing crew from TNG, DS9, even Voyager would have done a better job and for a smaller fee - Kurtzman doesn't come cheap. I'll stick with it, only to see how they tie up so many newly loose, plot threads.

Can't help feeling you set out to dislike this from the outset and that's fine. There also seems to be a remarkable level of nitpicking for such a short offering, almost seeking out the irritants. One gets the sense you've set yourself up to be disappointed or at best leaving space for a grudging acknowledgement they didn't do a bad job.

Didn't feel many of these things myself, although if I'm inclined to go for contrived it is in the baddie set-up. It was a slow episode, adding a bit more to
the adventure that beckons, but one that filled in some blanks.

As for the writing none of the forerunners started well. It is going somewhere, maybe not where you imagine it should go, but it has a clear enough thread and plot - Picard returns to space. In such a short arc that's probably enough and if it's not we can always watch something else.

Goodshape

That was alright. Not great.

velo.2010

is_that_so wrote: »

Can't help feeling you set out to dislike this from the outset and that's fine. There also seems to be a remarkable level of nitpicking for such a short offering, almost seeking out the irritants. One gets the sense you've set yourself up to be disappointed or at best leaving space for a grudging acknowledgement they didn't do a bad job.

Ad hominem nonsense. I'm a fan of Star Trek. I got decent vibes from the first episode and hoped for similar from this one. It disappointed and I critiqued why. If you disagree, fine, make your point - don't seek to undermine my judgement because you 'feel' you know me... you don't.

TheValeyard

velo.2010 wrote: »

Ad hominem nonsense. I'm a fan of Star Trek. I got decent vibes from the first episode and hoped for similar from this one. It disappointed and I critiqued why. If you disagree, fine, make your point - don't seek to undermine my judgement because you 'feel' you know me... you don't.

Well, I for one am happy the word feckers got added to Romulan language

velo.2010

TheValeyard wrote: »

Well, I for one am happy the word feckers got added to Romulan language

Well, we've had bollocks, now feckers... what next on Irish Star Trek swear bingo!;)

FutureGuy

A decent episode. Not nearly as strong as last week.

I will admit that it’s very annoying not to see recognisable Starfleet ships in that rescue armada. Not one.

AMKC

Well that was a disapointing second episode. No where near as enjoyable or as good as the first. I did however like that the ships over Mars at the start of it at least looked like 24th century TNG ships with impulse engines and nacellas. That and the Enterprise in Starfleet headquaters was the best parts of this episode.
I am sorry but any high ranking officer worth there rank is not going to curse over a stupid T.V interview unless it has just currupted there organisation or revealed classified details maybe or if said organisation has done something way out of line like the IMF in Mission Impossible when they blow up the Cremlin ye or in Avengers when the big city gets destroyed in a big fight. Picard did none of that. She would chat and say

Sorry Picard its not going to happen end of.

Am hoping next weeks episode is better.

FutureGuy

AMKC wrote: »

Well that was a disapointing second episode. No where near as enjoyable or as good as the first. I did however like that the ships over Mars at the start of it at least looked like 24th century TNG ships with impulse engines and nacellas. That and the Enterprise in Starfleet headquaters was the best parts of this episode.
I am sorry but any high ranking officer worth there rank is not going to curse over a stupid T.V interview unless it has just currupted there organisation or revealed classified details maybe or if said organisation has done something way out of line like the IMF in Mission Impossible when they blow up the Cremlin ye or in Avengers when the big city gets destroyed in a big fight. Picard did none of that. She would chat and say

Sorry Picard its not going to happen end of.

Am hoping next weeks episode is better.

Agreed. I’m putting it down to a necessity to give some background that I hope they build on.

AMKC

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'll have to rewatch

Decent enough this week. Nothing we hadn't really seen in the trailers but the -D looked great (although they've now made the Discovery Enterprise canon ).

I didn't mind the swearing though it did seem odd for a 24th/25th century show. Overall I don't think it was AS good as last week - mostly because it's still setting things up - but enjoyable regardless.

Nothing we hadn't really seen in the trailers but the -D looked great (although they've now made the Discovery Enterprise canon ).

Ye I kind of thought that too but at least its not as bad looking as the ones from the JJ Verse.

Evade

velo.2010 wrote: »

Well, we've had bollocks, now feckers... what next on Irish Star Trek swear bingo!;)

AH JAYSUS!

Lots of set up and world building I hope will pay off but not really much happening. Starfleet needs an XX days since infiltrated by a foreign power sign somewhere. The episode felt like it ended very abruptly, it's almost like it was written to be binge watched and not a week to week thing

And random thoughts as I watched the episode:

• Mars is very polluted
• Titanium, not duranium?
• Replicator ding...
• Tal Shiar squared
• Odd that Tal Shiar agents can just live on earth
• Cheeky ****ers...
• The Romulan empire is sounding very Imperium of Man
• Not a bad techsposition scene all in all
• Most transmissions come from offworld
• Alcoves
• Romulan/Daystrom operation on the cube? Quite a few humans and other Federation races
• Very retro looking shoulder holster
• No mention of the artificial heart
• Irumodic syndrome?
• The Stargazer's CMO
• The mass transporter pads are a good touch
• The old door chime
• First 5 star admiral seen on screen?
• That look
• Lots of "****ing"
• Romulans were allies for a while too
• Bowl cut Romulans still exist
• Raffey? Cathy? Who?
• Hmm, Romulan or Vulcan commodore
• So Super secret Tal Shiar have infiltrated Starfleet Security
• Vasquez rocks
• I hate when guns click just because someone moves them
• Gotta make sure people know it's a hologram

RubyGlee

Posted in the wrong thread

The_Wanderer

pah wrote: »

Why the F-BOMB? I know they are not restricted now with watersheds, broadcasting regs etc but it just feels so wrong and takes me right out of the episode :rolleyes:

I though the same initially but Data did go "Oh ****" in Generations which I recall got a great chuckle in the cinema.

Plus O'Brien went Bollox in a DS9 so.

So swearing does happen in the 24th century.

is_that_so

velo.2010 wrote: »

Ad hominem nonsense. I'm a fan of Star Trek. I got decent vibes from the first episode and hoped for similar from this one. It disappointed and I critiqued why. If you disagree, fine, make your point - don't seek to undermine my judgement because you 'feel' you know me... you don't.

No, it was all about the post and you really want to read your own post again to see why someone might think that. I do think you're misjudging this in the sense that this is not episodic TV, as was the vast majority of Star Trek. This is an arc, which may or may not work, but shaping an opinion of it based on one episode is not going to give anyone an idea of how good or bad it is. It was well flagged in reviews that the first 3 episodes are scene setting and by their nature slow building.

Stewart, too, should come in for criticism as he is a part of the production team and by his own admission has had input into the show. DS9 aside, what passed for writing at times in the other shows was no great shakes either.

tromtipp

I felt shocked to the core of my being, and deeply betrayed, by the sight of




















Picard making tea by by dropping a teabag into a pot of no-longer-boiling water.


Lots of good stuff there, and looking forward to more of Michelle Hurd's charcater, but - really, Jean-Luc?

pah

is_that_so wrote: »

No, it was all about the post and you really want to read your own post again to see why someone might think that. I do think you're misjudging this in the sense that this is not episodic TV, as was the vast majority of Star Trek. This is an arc, which may or may not work, but shaping an opinion of it based on one episode is not going to give anyone an idea of how good or bad it is. It was well flagged in reviews that the first 3 episodes are scene setting and by their nature slow building.

Stewart, too, should come in for criticism as he is a part of the production team and by his own admission has had input into the show. DS9 aside, what passed for writing at times in the other shows was no great shakes either.

So they get a pass on poor writing because it will all make sense by the end? I expect my TV episodes to have a certain standard when I am paying to watch one every week.

While I am enjoying seeing Picard on TV again I just feel that by the end of the episodes so far that it's just not doing it for me overall.

pah

tromtipp wrote: »

I felt shocked to the core of my being, and deeply betrayed, by the sight of




















Picard making tea by by dropping a teabag into a pot of no-longer-boiling water.


Lots of good stuff there, and looking forward to more of Michelle Hurd's charcater, but - really, Jean-Luc?

So far he has had more earl grey tea in 2 episodes than he did in seven seasons of TNG