Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

mick087

fash wrote: »

I wasn't - and some people who listened to me at the time made money on sterling.


Elections which are about lots of different topics. When the people are asked what is their opinion of brexit, they say this is not what they want and this is a bad idea - and 80%+ on the day of the referendum wanted to remain in the single market. So why should the UK government refuse to implement the will of the people?

Then on this occasion your prediction was spot on.

Yes election are indeed about lots of different topics and there is nothing better for a democracy than when its people votes.

Is it because you think its a bad idea or the fact that the UK citizens was given the powers to decide there own destiny that you have issue with?

I dont believe there was a question about the single market on the ballot sheet. If im incorrect about that then i apologize.

fash

swampgas wrote: »

At this point isn't the blame game a bit irrelevent?

The UK government has no leverage, and has burned many, many bridges with the EU.

The UK can demand and insist and whinge and moan all it wants, it makes no difference: the Barnier staircase remains the only framework for any future relationship the UK has with the EU.

The UK seems to be hanging onto its red lines around any role for the ECJ and sensible LPF arrangements. Fair enough, as a sovereign nation it can do what it likes (international treaties notwithstanding), but that just means that when they crash out in December without a deal it's on their own heads. The EU is under no obligation, legal or moral, to give them a sweetheart deal just because they want one.

That is the case for any reasonable observer - but obviously not how brexiters will spin it.

30 countries currently have tariff and quota free access to the single market - all abide by the same LPF- and the UK thinks it should get special treatment so it can undercut them all.

fash

mick087 wrote: »

Then on this occasion your prediction was spot on.

Yes election are indeed about lots of different topics and there is nothing better for a democracy than when its people votes.

Is it because you think its a bad idea or the fact that the UK citizens was given the powers to decide there own destiny that you have issue with?.

firstly I'd say it's a bit of a joke to say the UK citizenry decided - aside from the propaganda-soaked environment they live in, the illegality around the referendum and the fact that they are not familiar with the concept of democracy, the vast majority wanted to remain in the single market - yet that wish has been ignored - and indeed for most of the last 4 years a majority of citizens had wanted to vote again in brexit and that was denied. Hence it seems that UK style democracy is the same as that of Erdogan " democracy is like a train, when you reach your destination, you get off".

I dont believe there was a question about the single market on the ballot sheet. If im incorrect about that then i apologize.

Indeed there was not - so considering that 80%+ of the UK wanted to remain in it, why was that question not asked? Why was that preference entirely ignored?

Spanish Eyes

Anyway I reckon come 2 January if not before, Johnson will resign. There are things floating around about D notices, rehab, haircuts with a cute hairdresser and violin lessons LOL.

Look, I'm just being a tad lighthearted here, but if he DOES depart who will be the next PM. Four more years to go now.....

fash

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Anyway I reckon come 2 January if not before, Johnson will resign. There are things floating around about D notices, rehab, haircuts with a cute hairdresser and violin lessons LOL.

Look, I'm just being a tad lighthearted here, but if he DOES depart who will be the next PM. Four more years to go now.....

Gove apparently - as pushed by Murdoch.

mick087

fash wrote: »

firstly I'd say it's a bit of a joke to say the UK citizenry decided - aside from the propaganda-soaked environment they live in, the illegality around the referendum and the fact that they are not familiar with the concept of democracy, the vast majority wanted to remain in the single market - yet that wish has been ignored - and indeed for most of the last 4 years a majority of citizens had wanted to vote again in brexit and that was denied. Hence it seems that UK style democracy is the same as that of Erdogan " democracy is like a train, when you reach your destination, you get off".

Indeed there was not - so considering that 80%+ of the UK wanted to remain in it, why was that question not asked? Why was that preference entirely ignored?

If the leave had lost im sure they would have some reason excuse it would need to be done again.

Im a firm beliver in democracy and have always voiced for a peoples vote every 20 years to leave the EU. I see no reason for the same to rejoin. It could work like a saftey net.

Well if it was not on the ballot sheet 80% did not vote for something that wasnt there to vote for.

Spanish Eyes

fash wrote: »

Gove apparently - as pushed by Murdoch.

There is talk of Raab also.

Gove has something of the night about him, but that's just me.

fash

mick087 wrote: »

Well if it was not on the ballot sheet 80% did not vote for something that wasnt there to vote for.

That's fine - but don't pretend that the current form of brexit is either inevitable or represents the will of the people. Admit and accept that instead it is an Erdogan-style project to abuse democracy to build a kleptocracy.

mick087

fash wrote: »

That's fine - but don't pretend that the current form of brexit is either inevitable or represents the will of the people. Admit and accept that instead it is an Erdogan-style project to abuse democracy to build a kleptocracy.

You can not control people with the few, Citzens must be allowed democracy.

Corrupt leaders are more likey to come from selection than democracy.

theological

fash wrote: »

That's fine - but don't pretend that the current form of brexit is either inevitable or represents the will of the people. Admit and accept that instead it is an Erdogan-style project to abuse democracy to build a kleptocracy.

Nonsense. The election was won by the largest party who were returned with a majority in the House. You might disagree with the system but it was entirely democratic and one the British public voted to keep in 2011.

It is the continuing die hard remainer lot that have more similarities with Erdogan. He was the one who decided the people of Istanbul must vote again when they made the "wrong" decision for mayor.

fash

mick087 wrote: »

You can not control people with the few, Citzens must be allowed democracy.

Tell that to the British

Corrupt leaders are more likey to come from selection than democracy.

The UK isn't a democracy - de Pfeffel Johnson was selected by a tiny group of Tories and parachuted into a safe seat then given autocratic powers that Erdogan, Putin or Trump could only dream of.

ancapailldorcha

fash wrote: »

The UK isn't a democracy - de Pfeffel Johnson was selected by a tiny group of Tories and parachuted into a safe seat then given autocratic powers that Erdogan, Putin or Trump could only dream of.

Not to mention an unelected monarch whose family can molest children as they please and a bloated and wholly undemocratic upper house.

fash

theological wrote: »

Nonsense. The election was won by the largest party who were returned with a majority in the House. You might disagree with the system but it was entirely democratic and one the British public voted to keep in 2011.

Only 2 countries in Europe use FPTP: UK & Belarus. One a corrupt anti democratic dictatorship on the edge of Europe propped up with Russian money and the other - is Belarus.

It is the continuing die hard remainer lot that have more similarities with Erdogan. He was the one who decided the people of Istanbul must vote again when they made the "wrong" decision for mayor.

since the UK already "voted again" in 2016 having given the "wrong vote" on EU membership - you have to admit that in that case a "best of three" is a good argument.

mick087

fash wrote: »

The UK isn't a democracy - de Pfeffel Johnson was selected by a tiny group of Tories and parachuted into a safe seat then given autocratic powers that Erdogan, Putin or Trump could only dream of.

But he was democratically elected as an MP by the citizens in his constituency.

His party then went on the win victory by over 80 seats all democratically elected by its citizens.

Trump was also democratically elected

mick087

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Not to mention an unelected monarch whose family can molest children as they please and a bloated and wholly undemocratic upper house.

Yes i totally agree with you.

Totaly undemocratic as head of state. Any head of state should be elected by its citizens.
I think the House of Lords will go or change soon enough but its totaly undemocratic.
Strip all the lords sirs or what ever they are called of these fancy names.
If they have this upper a house make it an elected uper house.

First Up

mick087 wrote:

No power should be greater than that of its own citizens.

Power is effective when combined with knowledge and a plan. Aimless power is a recipe for chaos. That's why we elect people to make the hard decisions.

Asking something as complex in a binary question was madness, and even worse when the consequences of one of the options (leave) was just left open to imagination.

I'm not disputing the result. I am giving it as an example of how a simplistic belief in "people power" is a recipe for disaster - as Brexit is showing.

Seth Brundle

mick087 wrote: »

But he was democratically elected as an MP by the citizens in his constituency.

Isn't his constituency of Uxbridge & South Ruislip considered a safe seat?

mick087

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Isn't his constituency of Uxbridge & South Ruislip considered a safe seat?

There is no such thing as a safe seat
Dennis Skinner the beast of bolsover who was thoght to have the safest seat of them all fell at the last UK election.
One of a few politicians i had a very high regard for.
Would of loved him to of been an Irish man as a TD.
Top Man

fash

mick087 wrote: »

But he was democratically elected as an MP by the citizens in his constituency.

in a safe seat in which even Hitler would have been elected if he were the Tory representative - the UK (and Belarus) aren't actual democracies - they are corrupt kleptocracic dictatorships masquerading as such.

His party then went on the win victory by over 80 seats all democratically elected by its citizens.

That would be impressive if the UK were a democracy.

Trump was also democratically elected

Quite - and he and the director of the United States Postal service are doing absolutely everything they can to cripple the US Postal service to ensure that that remains the case.

fash

mick087 wrote: »

There is no such thing as a safe seat
Dennis Skinner the beast of bolsover who was thoght to have the safest seat of them all fell at the last UK election.
One of a few politicians i had a very high regard for.
Would of loved him to of been an Irish man as a TD.
Top Man

I'm pretty sure you could get a PhD thesis out of that assertion.

mick087

fash wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you could get a PhD thesis out of that assertion.

Sneer comments will only show your own arrogance and show your true colours.

Peregrinus

mick087 wrote: »

There is no such thing as a safe seat
Dennis Skinner the beast of bolsover who was thoght to have the safest seat of them all fell at the last UK election.

Bolsover hasn't been a safe seat for over a decade.

For decades after its creation it was one of the safest seats in the UK - Labour polled 82% in the 1966 election, and never fell below 70% until 1979. But the vote started to decline slowly but steadily in the 1980s, and at the 2005 election it was 65% - still a safe seat, but that was the last time. In 2010 Labour polled only 50%, and in the three elections since then they never got over 52%.

fash

mick087 wrote: »

Sneer comments will only show your own arrogance and show your true colours.

Don't write stupid comments in that case. One example of where due to changing demographics a safe seat becomes unsafe does not disprove the existence or concept of safe seats.

theological

fash wrote: »

Only 2 countries in Europe use FPTP: UK & Belarus. One a corrupt anti democratic dictatorship on the edge of Europe propped up with Russian money and the other - is Belarus.

since the UK already "voted again" in 2016 having given the "wrong vote" on EU membership - you have to admit that in that case a "best of three" is a good argument.

I don't know what you'd like me to say to your obviously extreme position in bold. But not acting on the referendum result and not respecting the result of the election would be more dictatorial.

A referendum once in a generation reflecting significantly different circumstances is different to one in three years because you don't like the result. That is more in Erdogan's playbook and it's more similar to his Istanbul re-do strop.

By the way the AKP got absolutely thrashed in the redo.

mick087

Peregrinus wrote: »

Bolsover hasn't been a safe seat for over a decade.

For decades after its creation it was one of the safest seats in the UK - Labour polled 82% in the 1966 election, and never fell below 70% until 1979. But the vote started to decline slowly but steadily in the 1980s, and at the 2005 election it was 65% - still a safe seat, but that was the last time. In 2010 Labour polled only 50%, and in the three elections since then they never got over 52%.

Yes the seat indeed bēġen to lose its safe seat status.
The change came because that area a very pro brexit.

They voted Tory because it promised to keep brexit.
The Labour party was not clear on the issue.

Dennis Skinner will be missed.

mick087

fash wrote: »

Don't write stupid comments in that case. One example of where due to changing demographics a safe seat becomes unsafe does not disprove the existence or concept of safe seats.

You mean you don't want me to write comments you don't agree with or like?
Yes some would like a society of nodding dogs im sure.

Peoples comments are not stupid there is no need for your arrogance. You seem a knowledgeable educated man, Respect views opinions even out of the box opinions.

We don't all have to agree with what you say or want because you believe its correct.

Professor Moriarty

mick087 wrote: »

Yes the seat indeed bēġen to lose its safe seat status.
The change came because that area a very pro brexit.

They voted Tory because it promised to keep brexit.
The Labour party was not clear on the issue.

Dennis Skinner will be missed.

What of note and importance did Skinner achieve in 49 years as an MP?

ohnonotgmail

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What of note and importance did Skinner achieve in 49 years as an MP?

i remember him waving a mace around.

Professor Moriarty

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i remember him waving a mace around.

Did he hit any right wing Tories? Pointless otherwise.

mick087

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What of note and importance did Skinner achieve in 49 years as an MP?

Reminding all MPs that they work for its citizens.
And following up through his actions.

If your serious and are genuinely interested in Dennis Skinner then are spend some time in Derbyshire talk to its people.