Union strike in a dual union school

joebloggs32

History Queen wrote: »

I don't think this is infighting? It seems to be standard action during a dispute (since 1990) unless I've misunderstood?

You are correct. The unions are bound by the 1990 act. The Asti advice is no different to what the TUI gave a few years ago. It is just standard practice.
No one should get personal about someone following what their union has advised. To do so would be pretty.

I Am The Law

Sabella wrote: »

Competing unions within one profession really

One union with a monopoly would be far more dangerous.

Sabella

I Am The Law wrote: »

One union with a monopoly would be far more dangerous.

To who?

Sabella

joebloggs32 wrote: »

You are correct. The unions are bound by the 1990 act. The Asti advice is no different to what the TUI gave a few years ago. It is just standard practice.
No one should get personal about someone following what their union has advised. To do so would be pretty.

It’s absolutely correct but having three different unions with competing agendas dilutes the arguments and puts the government in an advantageous position of playing each Union off one another, in my opinion

Benicetomonty

Sabella wrote: »

It’s absolutely correct but having three different unions with competing agendas dilutes the arguments and puts the government in an advantageous position of playing each Union off one another, in my opinion

Pay equality is an agenda they all have in common tbf.

Ironically, the govt's divide and conquer play the last time around has meant there are probably not that many schools that are now totally ASTI. Which means that now every time either union gets into a dispute with them, in unison or individually (like this one), dozens more schools will close than would have done otherwise, because obviously no decent member of any union will cross a picket. That will create the same effect as if there was only one second level union, which is what most of us want. Interesting times ahead, all things considered.

History Queen

Sabella wrote: »

To who?

Well it hasn't done the primary teachers much good having one (completely ineffective) union

Sabella

History Queen wrote: »

Well it hasn't done the primary teachers much good having one (completely ineffective) union

That’s a terrible issue for the primary teachers but primary school teachers should react to that issue in unison, right? Why pay a subscription to an ineffective union. I’m not disagreeing with you on that point but I do feel one Union for all secondary school teachers would be far more effective when it comes to negotiations and it plays right into the governments hands.

“We can’t offer that to your members as we haven’t even had those talks with the other union” “ but sure if we restore your member pay we would have to do that for the other unions” Maybe I am being unrealistic in thinking that but Let’s see.

To address the post (Benicetomonty), I think a previous poster mentioned working in a split school were as they are a member of ASTI and some colleagues are TUI they are having to enter the school via an alternative entrance in order not to cross the picket. I’m not sure if the numbers of schools at all but I think there are schools possibly with members of both unions.

Yes pay equality is the goal for all but why are the unions not taking and strategising in order to achieve that?

Benicetomonty

Sabella wrote: »

That’s a terrible issue for the primary teachers but primary school teachers should react to that issue in unison, right? Why pay a subscription to an ineffective union. I’m not disagreeing with you on that point but I do feel one Union for all secondary school teachers would be far more effective when it comes to negotiations and it plays right into the governments hands.

“We can’t offer that to your members as we haven’t even had those talks with the other union” “ but sure if we restore your member pay we would have to do that for the other unions” Maybe I am being unrealistic in thinking that but Let’s see.

To address the post (Benicetomonty), I think a previous poster mentioned working in a split school were as they are a member of ASTI and some colleagues are TUI they are having to enter the school via an alternative entrance in order not to cross the picket. I’m not sure if the numbers of schools at all but I think there are schools possibly with members of both unions.

Yes pay equality is the goal for all but why are the unions not taking and strategising in order to achieve that?

Anybody who enters that school in those circumstances is breaking a picket, no matter what way its being put to them. When it comes down to it, I firmly believe management wont facilitate it because staff wont do it. Maybe Il have to wait until next Wednesday for proof but Im optimistic, because my place (and at least 1 other Im aware of) has just gone through a similar situation with the same end result. If a picket is mounted, it wont be passed, so the school will close. End of.

In response to your second point, Im sure theyve tried. As somebody pointed out, there is distrust between the TUI and the ASTI because of what happened the last time the latter took a stance and were left out to dry by the former. Maybe the ASTI jumped the gun a bit (and certainly challenging multiple aspects of the entire public service pay agreement of the day in unison was ambitious) but the lack of support and subsequent poaching episode from the TUI was an incredible development. Since the TUI have insisted on continuing to undermine their sister union in other areas ever since (deliberate and submissive misreading of jct agreement re:slar meetings for example), it's no surprise theyre struggling to put up a unified stance just at the minute. Maybe if they get flogged by FEMPI like the ASTI did, it might strengthen their resolve.
As for the INTO, what can one say? Theyve been an embarrassment as a union. Overwhelmingly mandated to strike on the very issue of pay equality for over a year and nothing. A lost cause if ever there was one, each president and GS more subserviant than the last.

Treppen

more self-serving than sub-servant Beni

ethical

There are many voluntary secondary schools who are now virtually totally TUI and will be closed on Tuesday.Remember the TUI broke rules and let ASTI members join,they were fined later .......but whose money did they pay the fine with? The members,yours and mine!.

There are very few schools where the TUI are now in the minority!......and those schools will be OPEN on Tuesday!!!

TUI and ASTI are members of ICTU !
And ICTU has issued the directive that PICKETS CAN BE CROSSED!!!! rendering a strike totally useless!!!! P**SING against a storm....and if you are an ASTI member you will get WET!

This business of ASTI and TUI not being on good terms with each other is total fallacy.They are licking each others *rses and their members are suffering ,we need a total CULL of the fat cats....................but it will never happen,we do not have the ability of of French neighbours to put up any kind of a noticeable protest about anything anymore!

Sabella

ethical wrote: »

There are many voluntary secondary schools who are now virtually totally TUI and will be closed on Tuesday.Remember the TUI broke rules and let ASTI members join,they were fined later .......but whose money did they pay the fine with? The members,yours and mine!.

There are very few schools where the TUI are now in the minority!......and those schools will be OPEN on Tuesday!!! Im confused on this point, my school is TUI, and is closed, its early maybe im reading this wrong?

TUI and ASTI are members of ICTU !
And ICTU has issued the directive that PICKETS CAN BE CROSSED!!!! rendering a strike totally useless!!!! P**SING against a storm....and if you are an ASTI member you will get WET! Do you have a link to that I would be interested to read that

This business of ASTI and TUI not being on good terms with each other is total fallacy.They are licking each others *rses and their members are suffering ,we need a total CULL of the fat cats....................but it will never happen,we do not have the ability of of French neighbours to put up any kind of a noticeable protest about anything anymore!

Stop paying the membership is a start,

Postgrad10

Why does the INTO include Northern Ireland schools? I’ve always wondered.

Sabella

cmssjone wrote: »

We recently had an ASTI meeting where it was explained to us that the directive from the union was that we were to make ourselves available for work but not carry out any of the duties that our TUI colleagues should be doing eg substitution etc. Naturally the TUI members will be forming a picket and manning it throughout the day.

The school has multiple entrances and only the main one will be picketed. We have been told to make ourselves available and can do so by bypassing the main entrance and using one of the others. I, and others, find this highly divisive. I do not want to cross a picket line but the ASTI directive indicates that I should. I consider circumventing the picket line by taking another entrance as crossing the picket by proxy ie we are not supporting the industrial action of my colleagues and friends. I feel that this is going to have huge ramifications in the relationships between staff members going forward.

My union rep made it very clear that this was the stance of the union and that if one was to make themselves unavailable for work ie conscientious objector, then they would not be backed by the union under the legislation and it would be seen as local industrial action. Naturally supporting the strike would lead to a loss of wage for the day.

Are there any thoughts on the above? Is going into the school via another entrance crossing the picket?

I found this previous post interesting, not aiming at the poster or anything like that but what the ASTI recommended and the crossing of the picket. It seems to put people in very uncomfortable positions really. Again it brings me back to my belief that the government would be happy enough with this carry on, as unions work in opposition on the issues of striking.

coillsaille

Sabella wrote: »

I found this previous post interesting, not aiming at the poster or anything like that but what the ASTI recommended and the crossing of the picket. It seems to put people in very uncomfortable positions really. Again it brings me back to my belief that the government would be happy enough with this carry on, as unions work in opposition on the issues of striking.

It seems to me that the poster you quoted there was misinformed at the ASTI meeting they attended. ASTI have not directed their members to cross TUI pickets. They have stated clearly that any member who does not attend work due to not crossing a picket will be fully supported.

Sabella

coillsaille wrote: »

It seems to me that the poster you quoted there was misinformed at the ASTI meeting they attended. ASTI have not directed their members to cross TUI pickets. They have stated clearly that any member who does not attend work due to not crossing a picket will be fully supported.

I stand corrected so, seems to be a bit of confusion on this, including myself

ethical

From frequently asked questuions,(the below is straight out of the ASTI letter to its members ......)

If my school is open and there is a picket what shall I do?

ASTI has engaged with TUI and has been absolutely assured that they have no difficulty with ASTI members attending for workand passing their pickets on Feb.4th......
the letter then goes on to say that the ICTU laws need to be looked at ........(so the effect of strikes are no longer valid,people are bullied into crossing picket lines,threatened with break of service and loss of pay if they do not turn up for work etc)

Will the Principals and Centre Managers walk the line with the ordinary classroom teacher on Tuesday .....or will they have a cosy meeting at ETB HQ WITH TEA AND CAKE FOR THE GOLDEN CIRCLE?)

Millem

Our principal and two vice principals are striking too. Our school is closing on health and safety grounds.

rainbowtrout

ethical wrote: »

From frequently asked questuions,(the below is straight out of the ASTI letter to its members ......)

If my school is open and there is a picket what shall I do?

ASTI has engaged with TUI and has been absolutely assured that they have no difficulty with ASTI members attending for workand passing their pickets on Feb.4th......
the letter then goes on to say that the ICTU laws need to be looked at ........(so the effect of strikes are no longer valid,people are bullied into crossing picket lines,threatened with break of service and loss of pay if they do not turn up for work etc)

Will the Principals and Centre Managers walk the line with the ordinary classroom teacher on Tuesday .....or will they have a cosy meeting at ETB HQ WITH TEA AND CAKE FOR THE GOLDEN CIRCLE?)

Sorry but this is bordering on ridiculous. Why don't you put up a photo of the ASTI letter so we can actually read what it says instead of a rant?

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Sorry but this is bordering on ridiculous. Why don't you put up a photo of the ASTI letter so we can actually read what it says instead of a rant?

Agreed, impossible to pass comment unless we know the wording.

r93kaey5p2izun

"If my school is open and there is a picket what should I do? ASTI has engaged with the TUI and has been absolutely assured that they have no difficulty with ASTI members attending for work and passing their pickets on February 4th. This is also in keeping with normal protocols/standards set out by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. The TUI has pointed out to their members that “Anyone who is not in the TUI may be deemed to be in breach of their contract if they do not present for work on the 4th Feb and their employer may take disciplinary action against them or deem the day to have been a break in service.” It is clear from the foregoing that the terms of the Industrial Relations Act, 1990 are quite punitive and indeed are in need of some reform."

https://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/Revised_Q_A_27.01.20.docx.pdf

Treppen

The important thing is not to undertake any substitution or supervision for colleagues out on strike.

Sabella

There’s a Mel brooks movie in all of this ��

doc_17

Our P and DP will be on the picket too.