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Abolish car tax

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    #242
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    saabsaab wrote: »
    No. Even they won't be paying a tax that no longer exists! the polluter pays principle. As I said they can convert to another greener or non fossil fuel nobody has the same car forever!

    In fact you could turn your argument on its head and say that those who do less mileage are paying extra for those who travel more.

    If you want to incentivise someone to take the action you require, punishment is not the means to stop them from doing what you dont want.


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    #243
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    If you want to incentivise someone to take the action you require, punishment is not the means to stop them from doing what you dont want.


    It is, financial penalties are always effective. It wouldn't be just on its own some carrot too like no car tax!


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    #244
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,138 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    saabsaab wrote: »
    No. Even they won't be paying a tax that no longer exists! the polluter pays principle. As I said they can convert to another greener or non fossil fuel nobody has the same car forever!

    In fact you could turn your argument on its head and say that those who do less mileage are paying extra for those who travel more.

    Again, motor tax is an ownership tax and fuel tax is a usage tax. You pay motor tax because you own the car, not because of how far you drive it. Those who drive more are already paying more at the pump on top of their ownership tax in the more you drive the more fuel you have to buy.

    Your notion of those who drive more should shoulder your ownership tax in the name of the polluter pays, is a ridiculous argument. If you want to own a car then be prepared to pay the ownership tax that comes with it. Similarly you have to pay the usage tax as you use it on top of that. What next, you want to stick the VRT onto the price of fuel too?


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    #245
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    bazz26 wrote: »
    Again, motor tax is an ownership tax and fuel tax is a usage tax. You pay motor tax because you own the car, not because of how far you drive it. Those who drive more are already paying more at the pump on top of their ownership tax in the more you drive the more fuel you have to buy.

    Your notion of those who drive more should shoulder your ownership tax in the name of the polluter pays, is a ridiculous argument. If you want to own a car then be prepared to pay the ownership tax that comes with it. Similarly you have to pay the usage tax as you use it on top of that. What next, you want to stick the VRT onto the price of fuel too?


    Ownership tax is that a sacred cow? Why should there be one? Does it apply to washing machines, fridges clothes?

    The polluter pays more this way and that is the best means to get change.


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    #246
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Ownership tax is that a sacred cow? Why should there be one? Does it apply to washing machines, fridges clothes?

    The polluter pays more this way and that is the best means to get change.

    You don't get it. The polluter pays more anyway than someone less polluting.

    How much is your car tax per year currently?


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    #247
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    pablo128 wrote: »
    You don't get it. The polluter pays more anyway than someone less polluting.

    How much is your car tax per year currently?


    The polluter would pay more, as it should be. My car tax isn't relevant to the discussion.


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    #248
    tcawley29
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭tcawley29


    bazz26 wrote: »
    Again, motor tax is an ownership tax and fuel tax is a usage tax.

    I disagree. If you plan on not using the car you can declare it off the road in advance. If you did that you can still own the car and not pay tax as it's not being used.


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    #249
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    saabsaab wrote: »
    The polluter would pay more, as it should be. My car tax isn't relevant to the discussion.

    What you're proposing is already the case.

    And yes your car tax is relevant to the discussion seeing as you want it abolished. I was going to work out how much extra should go on a litre of diesel, using your road tax and an average mpg and average KMS per year, and see do you agree with that figure.


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    #250
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    tcawley29 wrote: »
    I disagree. If you plan on not using the car you can declare it off the road in advance. If you did that you can still own the car and not pay tax as it's not being used.

    You can look at it in all sorts of ways.

    They way I see it, its a way of getting some tax off owners who only drive 1 mile a day to the shop.

    So the more you drive, the more you pay, but if you hardly drive, you still pay a flat rate.


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    #251
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    pablo128 wrote: »
    What you're proposing is already the case.

    And yes your car tax is relevant to the discussion seeing as you want it abolished. I was going to work out how much extra should go on a litre of diesel, using your road tax and an average mpg and average KMS per year, and see do you agree with that figure.


    It is already the case but with this change it would be even more so.
    I don't see my personal situation is relevant to a general discussion and I won't be giving my details. I already think that we are talking about 20 cent per litre extra. Fuel prices are falling now so it is the right time to do it.


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    #252
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,138 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Ownership tax is that a sacred cow? Why should there be one? Does it apply to washing machines, fridges clothes?

    The polluter pays more this way and that is the best means to get change.

    Your going off on a tangent now debating what is and what isn't ownership with your silly examples. The fact is that motor tax is tax on ownership of a motor vehicle whether you like or agree with it. Just because it doesn't suit your circumstances doesn't mean it should be shifted onto those who already pay for their usage.

    The polluter is already paying more, the more they fill up with fuel, the more tax they pay on that fuel.
    saabsaab wrote: »
    It is already the case but with this change it would be even more so.
    I don't see my personal situation is relevant to a general discussion and I won't be giving my details. I already think that we are talking about 20 cent per litre extra. Fuel prices are falling now so it is the right time to do it.

    Of course your personal situation is relevant, your canvassing this thread here because of your person situation. It's clear you don't do much mileage. I bet if you were driving more you wouldn't be going on about moving it the fuel.

    Maybe focus on finding an alternative mode of transport for yourself if you cannot justify paying motor tax after all you suggested it earlier in this thread.


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    #253
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    No point in being personal about this it is a general topic of interest to many people. I haven't asked anyone about their personal situation and won't why should you?


    The proposal is relevant to the environment and wise regulation of government on its own merits. This would be a better way for all ultimately.


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    #254
    snoopboggybog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭snoopboggybog


    saabsaab wrote: »
    No point in being personal about this it is a general topic of interest to many people. I haven't asked anyone about their personal situation and won't why should you?


    The proposal is relevant to the environment and wise regulation of government on its own merits. This would be a better way for all ultimately.

    Let me guess you drive some 07 BMW/AUDI/Lexus/SAAB and your tax is around 1200 euro a year?

    Am I far off? Your hardly giving out about 200 or 300 euro a year.

    With regards the piece in Bold people have no choice but to drive as the public transport is so crap outside of Dublin. Why tax something they cannot solve.

    Also if your so inclined about people buying electric cars then why not buy one yourself. Most economical ones won't do the mileage a large portion of the population need.


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    #255
    Xertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Xertz


    You immediately get into a problem of geographical equity. Ireland's an incredibly scattered population by any standards, and dependent on car trips for commutes.

    While I agree we should be placing the burden on the polluter paying i.e. a tax on fuel makes sense, it would massively burden those on long commutes, certainly without a huge switch to EVs, which is probably still a while away due to technology not being quite mature enough yet either in terms of the cars or the grid. I've no doubt that it will be where we go eventually, but it's not happening as quickly as some would have hoped.

    The Motor Tax approach spreads that burden around while still having a fairly strong environmental impact through the emissions loading.

    In terms of population spread, we are where we are. We can't really undo 50+ years of bad planning. However, we could probably be doing a lot more to prepare for serious EV usage in the coming years, as it will ultimately be how we reduce the carbon footprint of transport here.
    Obviously, public transport has a big role too, but it's not going to be a magic bullet in Ireland given the spread of population.


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    #256
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,138 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    saabsaab wrote: »
    No point in being personal about this it is a general topic of interest to many people. I haven't asked anyone about their personal situation and won't why should you?


    The proposal is relevant to the environment and wise regulation of government on its own merits. This would be a better way for all ultimately.

    Ah the real agenda surfaces. A member or supporter of the Green party perhaps? Just remember what those clowns did back in 2008 when they fiddled with motor tax for the good of the environment.


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    #257
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    What is relevant is what is the best way to administer tax and reduce pollution in the country. This applies to everyone commuters or those who have a Rolls and use it once a week to the shops. Our current daft system(s) is/are complex and makes no sense.


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    #258
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    saabsaab wrote: »
    What is relevant is what is the best way to administer tax and reduce pollution in the country. This applies to everyone commuters or those who have a Rolls and use it once a week to the shops. Our current daft system(s) is/are complex and makes no sense.

    There's no requirement for any system of tax to be simple or make sense.

    It doesn't even have to be fair.


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    #259
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    There's no requirement for any system of tax to be simple or make sense.

    It doesn't even have to be fair.

    Just as well as its neither.


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    #260
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Taxes should be proportionate and as simple as possible. I don't get the hate for the Greens we are heading into a greener future and best adapt to it. The current crisis offers opportunities to do both of the above and makes the increase a small inconvenience in comparison to the costs of the crisis.


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    #261
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    As most aren't commuting anymore and many will probably stay working from home after this crisis is over, due to new distancing requirements in offices this is the time to introduce such a system. I am sure most would be in favour if put to them.


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    #262
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    saabsaab wrote: »
    As most aren't commuting anymore and many will probably stay working from home after this crisis is over, due to new distancing requirements in offices this is the time to introduce such a system. I am sure most would be in favour if put to them.

    @20 cent a litre I doubt you'll get many takers. You realise that's 12 euro a tank extra for most cars? 12 x 52 = 624 . Let's say 600 a year extra when the road tax on most yokes now is 270 ish.
    My car is 710 a year to tax and I do low mileage and I still think it's not workable.


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    #263
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,138 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    saabsaab wrote: »
    As most aren't commuting anymore and many will probably stay working from home after this crisis is over, due to new distancing requirements in offices this is the time to introduce such a system. I am sure most would be in favour if put to them.

    Your argument for is getting desperate now.


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    #264
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    bazz26 wrote: »
    Your argument for is getting desperate now.


    At least I have an argument that makes sense. The present system(s) don't. I know it won't suit everyone but it makes more and more sense as we head into a greener future.


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    #265
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,839 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    allowing virtually all new cars, to pay a pittance in tax, is absolute idiocy of the highest order!


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    #266
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,138 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    As long as your ok Jack...


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    #267
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    pablo128 wrote: »
    @20 cent a litre I doubt you'll get many takers. You realise that's 12 euro a tank extra for most cars? 12 x 52 = 624 . Let's say 600 a year extra when the road tax on most yokes now is 270 ish.
    My car is 710 a year to tax and I do low mileage and I still think it's not workable.


    There was a poll on this thread that showed most in favour. Your figure is based on using a full tank each week many wouldn't use that much. Anyway it isn't a personal thing for you or me but the best way overall.


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    #268
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    allowing virtually all new cars, to pay a pittance in tax, is absolute idiocy of the highest order!


    True! best move it to fossil fuels.


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    #269
    snoopboggybog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭snoopboggybog


    saabsaab wrote: »
    There was a poll on this thread that showed most in favour. Your figure is based on using a full tank each week many wouldn't use that much. Anyway it isn't a personal thing for you or me but the best way overall.

    Most that would agree are in Dublin where the jobs are and has decent public transport with the Dart, Luas and Dublin Bus.

    I don't think the other 25 counties would agree whatsoever.

    If your such a green head answer this question? Did you give up your own car to save the enviroment?

    We are allready taxed on petrol and Diesel hugely allready. An extra 20C is just taking more money out of people's pocket and will not help sove the issue of carbon emissions whatsoever.

    You just want free car tax.


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    #270
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    saabsaab wrote: »
    There was a poll on this thread that showed most in favour. Your figure is based on using a full tank each week many wouldn't use that much. Anyway it isn't a personal thing for you or me but the best way overall.

    That poll would change very quickly once people realised how much it would cost them.


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    #271
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,839 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    snoopboggybog wrote: »
    Most that would agree are in Dublin where the jobs are and has decent public transport with the Dart, Luas and Dublin Bus.

    I don't think the other 25 counties would agree whatsoever.

    If your such a green head answer this question? Did you give up your own car to save the enviroment?

    We are allready taxed on petrol and Diesel hugely allready. An extra 20C is just taking more money out of people's pocket and will not help sove the issue of carbon emissions whatsoever.

    You just want free car tax.

    what percentage of the population are near luas or dart? Dublins transport is absolutely woeful!


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