Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

TomOnBoard

briany wrote: »

Hardcore Republicans, most bigots/racists, people living where Trump has brought some jobs in, certain people living along the southern border who want that wall (see point 2), FB amateur (sort of redundant) conspiracy theorists, 'this'll show the lib-cucks'-merchants, people who think AntiFa is some massive threat to their country. People who think the Democratic party are a massive threat to their country.

There may be some overlap between some of the different sectors stated above. Also, it's an incomplete list. And if you are someone who voted for, or would vote for, Trump and don't feel like you fit into any of these categories, it is, as stated, an incomplete list.

For clarity, I would add Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists of all stripes..

briany

TomOnBoard wrote: »

For clarity, I would add Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists of all stripes..

Yes, that's a big one. I'd say there's a good overlap with them and hardcore Republicans, as well.

ExMachina1000

Nationwide race protests and riots for weeks. Before you know it coronavirus cases start to rise again. People blame Trump

Very silly

Igotadose

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nationwide race protests and riots for weeks. Before you know it coronavirus cases start to rise again. People blame Trump

Very silly

He's the President. Despite his protestations, he's responsible. Not just for the things that might go in his favor.

In fact, he repeatedly tweeted things like that, prior to being elected.

Not silly in the slightest. Oh, lots of evidence out there that the protests haven't caused a rise in cases. Cramming the beaches and inadequate social distancing, now that's another story altogether.

ExMachina1000

Igotadose wrote: »

He's the President. Despite his protestations, he's responsible. Not just for the things that might go in his favor.

In fact, he repeatedly tweeted things like that, prior to being elected.

Not silly in the slightest. Oh, lots of evidence out there that the protests haven't caused a rise in cases. Cramming the beaches and inadequate social distancing, now that's another story altogether.

Going to the beach packed closely together causes coronavirus to spread
Protesting on the streets packed together doesn't cause coronavirus to spread.

How close do you think half dressed strangers would be to each other?
Shoulder to shoulder with strangers on the beach.
Doesn't really sound realistic. But protesting on the streets people would be on top of each other

Il have to write that down. Although I don't think all of the Us states have coastlines.

salmocab

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nationwide race protests and riots for weeks. Before you know it coronavirus cases start to rise again. People blame Trump

Very silly

So you’ll have proof of the two being related so? Are cases only rising in cities where the protests were?

Harry Palmr

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nationwide race protests and riots for weeks. Before you know it coronavirus cases start to rise again. People blame Trump

Very silly

The surge began with a holiday weekend in late May and badly run "return to work' shopping and the beach" lifting of restrictions and of course the failure to understand how to protect oneself with masks , social distancing etc.

ExMachina1000

salmocab wrote: »

So you’ll have proof of the two being related so? Are cases only rising in cities where the protests were?

"The protests spread to over 2,000 cities and towns in all 50 states and all 5 permanently-inhabited territories, as well as in over 60 other countries, with demonstrators supporting those seeking justice for Floyd and the wider Black Lives Matter movement, and speaking out against police brutality"

Mass gatherings banned all over the world. You are looking to point blame. There are the culprits.
And people who went to the beach too

ExMachina1000

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The surge began with a holiday weekend in late May and badly run "return to work' shopping and the beach" lifting of restrictions and of course the failure to understand how to protect oneself with masks , social distancing etc.

And nationwide protests?

Pull your collective heads out of your asses. We all know that mass gatherings were banned for a reason. We all know the 15 minute and 2 metre rule. Logic says protests would be an ideal spreading situation.

Trump or no Trump. Dont deny reality.

Igotadose

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Going to the beach packed closely together causes coronavirus to spread
Protesting on the streets packed together doesn't cause coronavirus to spread.

Opening up the country without a clue and agitating against masks: spread.

Here's an example for you. Corona hit Japan, which has a much higher percentage of elderly citizens than the US and an enormously crammed population.

Hardly any deaths due to Covid. Why is that? Hit at about the same time. Who is responsible?

How close do you think half dressed strangers would be to each other?
Shoulder to shoulder with strangers on the beach.
Doesn't really sound realistic. But protesting on the streets people would be on top of each other

Il have to write that down. Although I don't think all of the Us states have coastlines.

The people protesting wore masks. Their incidence of illness is low.

People cramming beaches, bars and going to Walmart, that's a different story.

And, in any case, Trump is responsible. He sets the guidelines if not explicitly, implicitly by his behavior. He should be advocating for masks.

Harry Palmr

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

And nationwide protests?

Pull your collective heads out of your asses. We all know that mass gatherings were banned for a reason. We all know the 15 minute and 2 metre rule. Logic says protests would be an ideal spreading situation.

Trump or no Trump. Dont deny reality.

It'll be a factor obviously.

salmocab

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

"The protests spread to over 2,000 cities and towns in all 50 states and all 5 permanently-inhabited territories, as well as in over 60 other countries, with demonstrators supporting those seeking justice for Floyd and the wider Black Lives Matter movement, and speaking out against police brutality"

Mass gatherings banned all over the world. You are looking to point blame. There are the culprits.
And people who went to the beach too

I’m not looking to point blame, in fact that’s exactly what you did.
Do did the rate rise in all those places subsequently?

ExMachina1000

Harry Palmr wrote: »

It'll be a factor obviously.

Thank you for talking reality despite your beliefs on Trump. You stepped up, ignored the Orange man bad easy way out and used your common sense.

I salute you

sid waddell

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nationwide race protests and riots for weeks. Before you know it coronavirus cases start to rise again. People blame Trump

Very silly

Funny how you mention "race protests and riots" yet didn't mention the widespread police brutality and the lack of accountability for it.

The strategy of Trump and his supporters is to continually and cynically frame righteous and justified protests as "riots". Why? Because they believe it will benefit Trump. You just did it there.

Trump framing righteous and justified protest as "riots" is a perfect pretext for authoritarian shock doctrine.

You mendaciously framed the protests, which you framed as "riots", as the reason for Covid cases rising.

Never mind that your postings here are in support of a man who wants to destroy all Covid-related restrictions.

You completely airbrushed from history the total abdication of Trump and many Republican governors of their responsibilities to protect public health.

Trump doesn't give a toss about Covid cases rising, in my view he welcomes it as it is also a perfect pretext for authoritarian shock doctrine.

This authoritarian shock doctrine encompasses justification for police and army brutality, legal and judicial engineering to enable Trump's criminal buddies to run free (pretty much already completely achieved), legal and judicial engineering to destroy the ACA, and draconian voter suppression and vote falsification measures to ensure a Putin-esque or, maybe a more appropriate comparison, a Viktor Yanukovych Ukraine 2004-style election "victory".

Once that "victory" is "achieved" he can set forth for full fascism.

ExMachina1000

sid waddell wrote: »

Funny how you mention "race protests and riots" yet didn't mention the widespread police brutality and the lack of accountability for it.

The strategy of Trump and his supporters is to continually and cynically frame righteous and justified protests as "riots". Why? Because they believe it will benefit Trump. You just did it there.

Trump framing righteous and justified protest as "riots" is a perfect pretext for authoritarian shock doctrine.

You mendaciously framed the protests, which you framed as "riots", as the reason for Covid cases rising. You completely airbrushed from history the total abdication of Trump and many Republican governors of their responsibilities to protect public health.

Trump doesn't give a toss about Covid cases rising, in my view he welcomes it as it is also a perfect pretext for authoritarian shock doctrine.

This authoritarian shock doctrine encompasses justification for police and army brutality, legal and judicial engineering to enable Trump's criminal buddies to run free (pretty much already completely achieved), legal and judicial engineering to destroy the ACA, and draconian voter suppression and vote falsification measures to ensure a Putin-esque or, maybe a more appropriate comparison, a Viktor Yanukovych Ukraine 2004-style election "victory".

Once that "victory" is "achieved" he can set forth for full fascism.

Yes everything you said. Well put.

I'm talking about coronavirus cases on the rise and a major reason for those rises.
Again

The protests spread to over 2,000 cities and towns in all 50 states and all 5 permanently-inhabited territories, as well as in over 60 other countries, with demonstrators supporting those seeking justice for Floyd and the wider Black Lives Matter movement, and speaking out against police brutality

Theres a pandemic on the move. You can't be gathering en mass for weeks. You also can't pretend it means nothing

Midlife

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Yes everything you said. Well put.

I'm talking about coronavirus cases on the rise and a major reason for those rises.
Again

The protests spread to over 2,000 cities and towns in all 50 states and all 5 permanently-inhabited territories, as well as in over 60 other countries, with demonstrators supporting those seeking justice for Floyd and the wider Black Lives Matter movement, and speaking out against police brutality

Theres a pandemic on the move. You can't be gathering en mass for weeks. You also can't pretend it means nothing

And nothing about when Trump is gleefully tweeting about 1 million interested in his rally?

Seriously, you're making this too easy.

By your standards just mentioned now, Trump has been negligent.

ExMachina1000

Midlife wrote: »

And nothing about when Trump is gleefully tweeting about 1 million interested in his rally?

Seriously, you're making this too easy.

By your standards just mentioned now, Trump has been negligent.

I don't think there were a million people at the rally.

Trumps rally is another spreading event. That was one event in one city for one night.

The protests were in 2000 cities and towns for weeks and still going in parts!
Come on

You are seriously using trump hatred to fool yourself into not seeing clearly. 2000 cities and towns for weeks.

Leroy42

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I don't think there were a million people at the rally.

Trumps rally is another spreading event. That was one event in one city for one night.

The protests were in 2000 cities and towns for weeks and still going in parts!
Come on

But Trump has been telling everyone to get back to work, free yourself and gain back Liberty. He had no issue with armed citizens storming a government building to demand a change in legislation. In fact he welcomed it.

You seem intent on refusing to acknowledge that the role of POTUS carries certain influence and importance. He set the tone for continually downplaying the threat.

So is it any wonder that people with serious and longstanding grievances would think they were more important than a non existent threat?

pixelburp

To use Trump's own words from early doors in this: "the cure can't be worse than the disease", when asked about when was the right time to reopen the country. The inference being not to stay closed too long - not an inaccurate statement superficially, but willfully ignorant of priorities as soundbites go. Had he his way I daresay DC would have directed states to reopen far sooner than they did. His business career might be spotty but it's fair speculation he saw the damage prolonged lockdown would do to his own reelection gold star; the health economy. All throughout the narrative has been about economy, stocks and financial priorities beyond humane ones. I found the lack of PPE on protestors a really terrible idea but reinfection can't be laid at their feet against the broader dictat to prematurely reopen the country.

ExMachina1000

Leroy42 wrote: »

But Trump has been telling everyone to get back to work, free yourself and gain back Liberty. He had no issue with armed citizens storming a government building to demand a change in legislation. In fact he welcomed it.

You seem intent on refusing to acknowledge that the role of POTUS carries certain influence and importance. He set the tone for continually downplaying the threat.

So is it any wonder that people with serious and longstanding grievances would think they were more important than a non existent threat?

He did down play the threat no doubt. Too slow to action and he constantly confused the situation by talking about bleach or by refusing to wear a mask when everyone else was at the Honeywell factory. Shīt show from the start. One of the main reasons cases and deaths are so high.

Most Us cities were on re opening phases just like here. Certain businesses operating, bars still closed in many, working from home etc. People weren't mixing much.

Then the protests started and spread to 2000 cities and towns this . This happened in the space of over a week and all previous work to suppress went out the window the window in a few weeks.
Cases were dropping the weeks before now at record increases.

That's why. People aren't gathering in large numbers for any other reason.

salmocab

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

He did down play the threat no doubt. Too slow to action and he constantly confused the situation by talking about bleach or by refusing to wear a mask when everyone else was at the Honeywell factory. Shīt show from the start. One of the main reasons cases and deaths are so high.

Most Us cities were on re opening phases just like here. Certain businesses operating, bars still closed in many, working from home etc. People weren't mixing much.

Then the protests started and spread to 2000 cities and towns this . This happened in the space of over a week and all previous work to suppress went out the window the window in a few weeks.
Cases were dropping the weeks before now at record increases.

That's why. People aren't gathering in large numbers for any other reason.

As you said these protests were in countries all over the world too, are they all seeing the same spikes?

Leroy42

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

He did down play the threat no doubt. Too slow to action and he constantly confused the situation by talking about bleach or by refusing to wear a mask when everyone else was at the Honeywell factory. Shīt show from the start. One of the main reasons cases and deaths are so high.

Most Us cities were on re opening phases just like here. Certain businesses operating, bars still closed in many, working from home etc. People weren't mixing much.

Then the protests started and spread to 2000 cities and towns this . This happened in the space of over a week and all previous work to suppress went out the window the window in a few weeks.
Cases were dropping the weeks before now at record increases.

That's why. People aren't gathering in large numbers for any other reason.

And you think Trumps leadership, as acknowledge by yourself, had no bearing on that?

He felt opening the economy was more important than any damage it would cause, the protesters felt that the continued police violence was more important in the same way.

Just as Trump welcomed and sided with those that stormed government buildings and called for liberty, the protesters were arguing for equality and freedom from police brutality.

Of course the protests increased the spread, but Trump must take a huge amount of responsibility for not handling the protestors concerns in a way that would have reduced the outcry. Instead he poured petrol over it and then moved to tear gas and forcibly remove peaceful protesters just so he could have a photo op. Do you think that stunt helped? Do you think calling the protesters terrorists helped? Do you think calling for police and military to take a harder line helped?

Leroy42

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

He did down play the threat no doubt. Too slow to action and he constantly confused the situation by talking about bleach or by refusing to wear a mask when everyone else was at the Honeywell factory. Shīt show from the start. One of the main reasons cases and deaths are so high.

Most Us cities were on re opening phases just like here. Certain businesses operating, bars still closed in many, working from home etc. People weren't mixing much.

Then the protests started and spread to 2000 cities and towns this . This happened in the space of over a week and all previous work to suppress went out the window the window in a few weeks.
Cases were dropping the weeks before now at record increases.

That's why. People aren't gathering in large numbers for any other reason.

And you think Trumps leadership, as acknowledge by yourself, had no bearing on that?

He felt opening the economy was more important than any damage it would cause, the protesters felt that the continued police violence was more important in the same way.

Just as Trump welcomed and sided with those that stormed government buildings and called for liberty, the protesters were arguing for equality and freedom from police brutality.

Of course the protests increased the spread, but Trump must take a huge amount of responsibility for not handling the protestors concerns in a way that would have reduced the outcry. Instead he poured petrol over it and then moved to tear gas and forcibly remove peaceful protesters just so he could have a photo op. Do you think that stunt helped? Do you think calling the protesters terrorists helped? Do you think calling for police and military to take a harder line helped?

kowloon

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Going to the beach packed closely together causes coronavirus to spread
Protesting on the streets packed together doesn't cause coronavirus to spread.

Going to a rally organised by the very government that should be banning mass gatherings can cause it to spread.
Some of the protests were before the BLM kick-off, remember how Trump actively encouraged the liberate protests?
Not wearing masks encourages it to spread, remember when Trump decided it wouldn't look presidential meeting dictators wearing a mask, so he wouldn't be doing so?
I remember. People who don't take the virus seriously are fools and they're selfish and putting people at risk, regardless of who they plan to vote for. But let's be clear, the president has actively promoted idiocy.

hotmail.com

It's probably likely that the protests would have happened anyway under whatever president was in power. No doubt that Trump makes things worse, than better and the media divisive ratings attitude is also unhelpful.

I say this because race related protests/riots are a regular thing in America.

I thought the protests were actually quite tame compared to other protests and rioting in America and around the world.

I was also surprised to hear that Obama hadn't banned the choke hold.

Igotadose

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

He did down play the threat no doubt. Too slow to action and he constantly confused the situation by talking about bleach or by refusing to wear a mask when everyone else was at the Honeywell factory. Shīt show from the start. One of the main reasons cases and deaths are so high.

Most Us cities were on re opening phases just like here. Certain businesses operating, bars still closed in many, working from home etc. People weren't mixing much.

Then the protests started and spread to 2000 cities and towns this . This happened in the space of over a week and all previous work to suppress went out the window the window in a few weeks.
Cases were dropping the weeks before now at record increases.

That's why. People aren't gathering in large numbers for any other reason.

Bad science. Aerosols cause spreading. Protesters wear masks. No upticks in places like Minneapolis where there were weeks of nonstop protests. But Florida which rushed to reopen, full of elderly nonprotestors, setting national records. All because Trump's failure of leadership. Japan: no cases. Taiwan: no cases. US: leading the world. Difference is masks, all due to Trumps staggering vanity and narcissism

hotmail.com

Igotadose wrote: »

Bad science. Aerosols cause spreading. Protesters wear masks. No upticks in places like Minneapolis where there were weeks of nonstop protests. But Florida which rushed to reopen, full of elderly nonprotestors, setting national records. All because Trump's failure of leadership. Japan: no cases. Taiwan: no cases. US: leading the world. Difference is masks, all due to Trumps staggering vanity and narcissism

How do you know this?

Igotadose

hotmail.com wrote: »

How do you know this?

Worldometer for stats on Japan and Taiwan. Lots of online sources esp Slate re protesters masks and upticks

looksee

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I don't think there were a million people at the rally.

Trumps rally is another spreading event. That was one event in one city for one night.

The protests were in 2000 cities and towns for weeks and still going in parts!
Come on

You are seriously using trump hatred to fool yourself into not seeing clearly. 2000 cities and towns for weeks.

Can we just step back from the argument a moment and establish why you refer to 'Trump hatred'?

You are assuming, it seems to me, that everyone who speaks against Trump does it simply because they hate him. Hate is a word that I try to keep out of my vocabulary as it is usually overstated. However. Can we figure out why you think anyone who is against Trump is that way because they hate him?

It suggests a simple gut response to him rather than anything considered, it implies a certain petulance that frankly I am not seeing on the anti-Trump side of the argument. The implication being that, but for this hatred, everyone would favour Trump. Are we really all that simplistic? What is the reason for this hate? Is it just irrational?

If Trump had come along and behaved differently, and made even an averagely reasonable job of behaving like a real person doing an important job, this thread would not have got past part I and the conversation would be more about policies than about what a dangerous idiot he is. I cannot see that there was an Obama megathread, lots of threads about him, but individually about aspects of his presidency, nobody 'hated' him.

So what has brought on this hatred of someone who, by your telling, is a rational, reasonable, successful president, any suggestions?

This is, I would point out, yet another question - we still await answers to a number of others.

ExMachina1000

looksee wrote: »

Can we just step back from the argument a moment and establish why you refer to 'Trump hatred'?

You are assuming, it seems to me, that everyone who speaks against Trump does it simply because they hate him. Hate is a word that I try to keep out of my vocabulary as it is usually overstated. However. Can we figure out why you think anyone who is against Trump is that way because they hate him?

It suggests a simple gut response to him rather than anything considered, it implies a certain petulance that frankly I am not seeing on the anti-Trump side of the argument. The implication being that, but for this hatred, everyone would favour Trump. Are we really all that simplistic? What is the reason for this hate? Is it just irrational?

If Trump had come along and behaved differently, and made even an averagely reasonable job of behaving like a real person doing an important job, this thread would not have got past part I and the conversation would be more about policies than about what a dangerous idiot he is. I cannot see that there was an Obama megathread, lots of threads about him, but individually about aspects of his presidency, nobody 'hated' him.

So what has brought on this hatred of someone who, by your telling, is a rational, reasonable, successful president, any suggestions?

This is, I would point out, yet another question - we still await answers to a number of others.

Trump hatred?

You or who ever are fixated on Trumps poor management at the start of the epidemic. Cases got out of control because he started slow. I get it.

Look at what washappening to cause numbers to rise
New cases were dropping for the past few weeks. States in reopening phases but nobody mixing . Then the protests started and spread to 2000 towns and cities in just over a week and lasting weeks.

Now cases rising. Not a coincidence. It's the cause

Trump hatred causes otherwise normal people to lose rationality.