Wealth distribution through property taxation

kippy

John Proud Outfielder wrote: »

What’s the point in building wealth if it’s going to be decimated in tax? I really can’t get my head around anyone who even remotely agrees with taxing gifts or inheritances within the family at the very least.

Why are they so against wanting to help their kids out or do they begrudge those who can so much. Any parent who can helps out their kids, if that’s a deposit or gifting land to build on or for the even luckier gifting them houses etc making their lives much better and easier reducing/eliminating worries about money for them etc.

Yet some want it stopped, absolute madness.

The good thing is though that it’s the other way things are going thankfully with the tax free threashold being increased every year. Hopefully in future the taxation of money or assets bring gifted/inherited within the family will be totally tax free on all amounts but we can only home.

At it's lowest point in the last number ofyears you can pass on 250 odd K to your kids tax free. I don't see how that figure isn't enough to "help out" your kids.
Christ if I was in the privileged position to help out my kids to the tune of 250K each, I'd be delighted - not moaing about getting taxed on anything above that.

kippy

pablo128 wrote: »

How would you like your wages taxed twice?

I think you'll find that the euro you get in gross is subject to various levels and types of tax as you move it around the economy.

Diarmuid

pablo128 wrote: »

How would you like your wages taxed twice?

As I pointed out already, they are. I pay income tax and then VAT on everything I buy. Unlike someone who inherits money or assets. They only pay tax once.

kippy

Princess Calla wrote: »

I'm aware how taxation works!

The point I'm making is I earn money for my household which includes my children. I as a responsible adult save each month for unexpected emergencies. If I die tomorrow my children will have to pay 33% tax on my savings. The money that was earned for the household is automatically deducted because I died.

Now if you took away the threshold as one poster suggested where is the incentive to work and build up wealth?

Sure you'd be better off knocked up getting a house from the government.... However if everyone did that where would the government get their financing from?

That's why the threshold is there though, is it not?

There's still an incentive to work and build up wealth with the threshold there - can't you see that?

Dav010

Diarmuid wrote: »

As I pointed out already, they are. I pay income tax and then VAT on everything I buy. Unlike someone who inherits money or assets. They only pay tax once.

Only one of those is tax on income. Inheritance tax is a second tax on income.

kippy

Dav010 wrote: »

Only one of those is tax on income. Inheritance tax is a second tax on income.

That's a nonsense argument.

anewme

Princess Calla wrote: »

Probably because you're taxed at 52% then the beneficiary will be taxed at 33% so out of every euro you earn revenue gets 66 cents or so!

Take away being able to gift your children a few bob in your death where is the incentive to work and better yourself?

I’ve no children and only 2 nieces so feel very strongly about this unjust tax.

kippy

Dav010 wrote: »

Leaving aside the taxation on income, very few wealthy people become wealthy in isolation. Most do so through industry which employs others who in turn use their wages to in turn support others in retail etc. If you remove the incentive of accumulating wealth or increase their burden by distributing their wealth by increasing taxation, you risk removing that incentive.

Who is talking about removing the incentive of accumulatng wealth?
The incentives to accumulate wealth are increasing, not decreasing.

tayto lover

Over-taxing people for working hard and being industrious is just plain stupid.
Burdening them with extra taxes because they were successful is stupid too.
Rewarding people who don’t work at all is even worse.

anewme

John Proud Outfielder wrote: »

I’d rather burn the Money and assets than see it go to the tax man and be “redistributed”

Absolutely.

kippy

tayto lover wrote: »

Over-taxing people for working hard and being industrious is just plain stupid.
Burdening them with extra taxes because they were successful is stupid too.
Rewarding people who don’t work at all is even worse.

Well, if I ever spotted a post on boards.ie stating the obvious - that's it.

Boredstiff666

Assetbacked wrote: »

It is toxic and ensures wealth preservation in families and enables inequality through generations. Dead people can determine how the wealth of future generations is used, this has caused utter chaos.

A very lefty view and some may say a very good point especially if you are a raging lefty.

Whoever is right or wrong and it may be a good idea on thought. The problems begin where your argument falls down.

Although the idea may be valid in practice. What happens is greedy salivating politicians get their hands on that dosh and squander it on their friends and folly's.

In which case the future generations you talk about get sod all anyway.

Apart from which it def isn't a vote winner and has been tried even recently by a Labour woman called Blears or something in the UK 2010. And as you guessed she didn't win her seat in the following election.

anewme

kippy wrote: »

At it's lowest point in the last number ofyears you can pass on 250 odd K to your kids tax free. I don't see how that figure isn't enough to "help out" your kids.
Christ if I was in the privileged position to help out my kids to the tune of 250K each, I'd be delighted - not moaing about getting taxed on anything above that.

You make it sound like people win it in the Lotto or something.

There’s nothing “privileged” about leaving your home at 6.30 am in the dark, sitting on the Motorway for hours and then coming home in the dark, to do it over and over for years. People who build up a few bob over a lifetime of working should be able to distribute their after tax income without seeing what they’ve worked for going back to Revenue.

_Brian

Why oh why is there a social acceptance that some people get to ignore their education, never get a job and then have working families taxed more to provide them with stuff.

Going to work and making sacrifices isn’t fun, we do it knowing we are providing the best future for our children that we can.

We can’t make not providing for yourself a viable option in society. Society have to accept that those who work hard will have a better life and a better future than those who refuse to provide for themselves or their family.

hognef

tayto lover wrote: »

Over-taxing people for working hard and being industrious is just plain stupid.
Burdening them with extra taxes because they were successful is stupid too.
Rewarding people who don’t work at all is even worse.

What if it could also reward people who work and pay taxes, in such a way that they too would receive support from the government (say, free child care) and/or reduced income taxes (say a higher starting point for the higher rate of tax, and a reduction of that level from 52% to 45%)?

14dMoney1

tayto lover wrote: »

Over-taxing people for working hard and being industrious is just plain stupid.
Burdening them with extra taxes because they were successful is stupid too.
Rewarding people who don’t work at all is even worse.

But what about Anto and Deco? Shouldn't they be guaranteed a middle-class lifestyle regardless if they work or not?

tayto lover

kippy wrote: »

Well, if I ever spotted a post on boards.ie stating the obvious - that's it.

Indeed but some people are not as quick to see the obvious as you are Kippy.

tayto lover

14dMoney1 wrote: »

But what about Anto and Deco? Shouldn't they be guaranteed a middle-class lifestyle regardless if they work or not?

The only thing that really works ........... is work.
Rewarding someone for doing nothing never pays.

Fol20

Wanderer78 wrote: »

one of the main root causes of these social issues is in fact, rising inequality, again, well researched. we pretend we all have the same options and opportunities in this world, we dont, and id completely agree with people such as Stiglitz, rising inequality also causes as rise inequality of opportunities.

long term unemployment is actually extremely complex, some of the most common issues amongst the long term unemployment are undiagnosed, therefore untreated complex disorders such as developmental disorders, mental health disorders, behavioral problems, personality disorders, learning disabilities, etc etc etc. you will find our existing social systems, i.e. educational system, legal system, health care systems etc etc etc have failed to deal with these issues, and in many cases, has in fact exasperated them

therefore, providing the facilities, as you mentioned, doesnt get to these root problems, at all!

You keep quoting extensive research has been done
Right now If all the money in the world was equally spread out. Give it one year and there would be wealth inequality again. Some people are better at managing their life and money. People should not be punished if they sacrifice or make better choices.

Yes some people grow up in under privileged backgrounds but at the same time, if these people truly want to go to college etc, Ireland provides grants, free housing free college etc for them to better themself. Yes this is a very basic view of it but we afford everyone good opportunities if they do choose to take them.

As many have said already. How much exactly do you want us to be taxed in Ireland. At 52pc at the higher tax band 33pc for cgt already high. I want to actually enjoy my own money and pass it down to my kids and their kids so I can provide a better life for my family tree. You seem to not like this for some reason.why?

The government are not exactly the best at managing money. Point in case. The children’s hospital where a similar hospital would be less than half the cost in uk or 4 times less in Portugal or a printer costing over 1.5m. It’s a bottomless pit with our government where they do certain things to gain votes but isn’t good for our nation and you want to give them more money.

Lastly, if you target the wealthiest in Ireland. There is ways and means of bypassing these laws. Eg. If your wealth is large enough, you can sell all your assets in Ireland and become a tax resident in another country such as portugal. Most might say, it’s not worth it but if there is enough money that might be taxed. It might be a worthwhile move.

Fol20

kippy wrote: »

At it's lowest point in the last number ofyears you can pass on 250 odd K to your kids tax free. I don't see how that figure isn't enough to "help out" your kids.
Christ if I was in the privileged position to help out my kids to the tune of 250K each, I'd be delighted - not moaing about getting taxed on anything above that.

Its easier to take that position if you wont reach that level. If your at a level of double that. How would you like it if you die tomorrow, And due to cat, your children need to pay tax of around 80k on what you worked hard for. Couple that with the fact they may not be able to borrow that money to keep the house so might be forced to sell it. Yes they will have over 400k in the bank but thats 80k that other people other than your household will squander.

Princess Calla

kippy wrote: »

That's why the threshold is there though, is it not?

There's still an incentive to work and build up wealth with the threshold there - can't you see that?

Depends on how many kids you have and where you live.

If you've two kids (because that's probably all you can afford taking into account on childcare costs) and live in Dublin, the chances are the threshold will be used on the house alone!

Be very skeptical about anyone "downsizing " especially if their adult children buy the house....assets being liquidised me thinks!

Browney7

Well, CGT doesn't apply on death so is CAT not a way of making sure some of the gain is taxed? Same as the family home via the relief on the principle private residence.

Plenty families in now wealthy parts of Dublin weren't all that wealthy areas years ago - the addition of Luas and DART paid for by taxpayers and improvements in infrastructure and facilities has made their areas far more desirable. Surely society is owed something back on this? The teachers living in areas by the DART didn't work any harder than teachers in Kildare did they?

There's a fit for CAT in the overall taxation system instead of just hammering people's incomes preventing them from accumulating wealth through their labour and having to pay the state pensions of their parents' generation which they themselves won't receive when the time comes.

Princess Calla

anewme wrote: »

I’ve no children and only 2 nieces so feel very strongly about this unjust tax.

In what way do you feel it unjust?

Everyone has parents so benefits them that way.

Your nieces can inherit circa 30k tax free....you can also gift them 3 k a year.

You could also leave in your will 30k to your sibling

kippy

anewme wrote: »

You make it sound like people win it in the Lotto or something.

There’s nothing “privileged” about leaving your home at 6.30 am in the dark, sitting on the Motorway for hours and then coming home in the dark, to do it over and over for years. People who build up a few bob over a lifetime of working should be able to distribute their after tax income without seeing what they’ve worked for going back to Revenue.

There are LOTS and LOTS of people out there who "Work Hard" getting up earlier in the morning (a nonsense concept, that the earlier you get up the harder worker you are) or that leave their families on a Sunday to return on a Friday and work hard all week in physically demanding jobs who never have and never will have the ability to give 250K tax free to each of their kids.

I am stating that the tax free allowances are perfectly adequate to give your kids a great help in life - and the tax levels on the figures above that aren't massively restrictive.

Again, I'd be delighted to be in a position to help my kids out to that extent, and even more so if I had to contend with the tax levels on top of that.
Financially life would be good.

listermint

Interesting thread.

But as usual I think you'll find the most ardent opposers of high taxes on inheritance taxes are one and the same the very people who will shout from the rooftops about tightening your belt. Pulling your bootstraps. Getting out work and getting your own good education.

They give out reems about welfare and have quite right wing views on whats taxable and what's not.

Hardened for water charges for example.

Intriguing why that is but I suppose it's what's good for the goose and all that. Given the leg up they were given would the subscribe to the same views. ..
I doubt it.



Conditioning.

kippy

Fol20 wrote: »

Its easier to take that position if you wont reach that level. If your at a level of double that. How would you like it if you die tomorrow, And due to cat, your children need to pay tax of around 80k on what you worked hard for. Couple that with the fact they may not be able to borrow that money to keep the house so might be forced to sell it. Yes they will have over 400k in the bank but thats 80k that other people other than your household will squander.

Again, if I were in a position of being able to hand over a few hundred K to my kids, I would be delighted - as they should be. I can't take it with me to the grave - they might be able to make some use of it.
That's tax in general - I have very little say on where it gets spent. I'd have zero problem with it in general to be honest.

Dav010

kippy wrote: »

There are LOTS and LOTS of people out there who "Work Hard" getting up earlier in the morning (a nonsense concept, that the earlier you get up the harder worker you are) or that leave their families on a Sunday to return on a Friday and work hard all week in physically demanding jobs who never have and never will have the ability to give 250K tax free to each of their kids.

I am stating that the tax free allowances are perfectly adequate to give your kids a great help in life - and the tax levels on the figures above that aren't massively restrictive.

Again, I'd be delighted to be in a position to help my kids out to that extent, and even more so if I had to contend with the tax levels on top of that.
Financially life would be good.

No one is saying if you work hard and save, you will accumulate wealth, what we are saying is that you have a better chance if you do, and should not be penalised just because others may not have the same work ethic or acumen as those who do become wealthy.

I don’t care if you think €250k is “enough” to help out your family through inheritance, if what I pass on is net of income already taxed, then taxing it a second time is unfair.

ml100

Browney7 wrote: »

Well, CGT doesn't apply on death so is CAT not a way of making sure some of the gain is taxed? Same as the family home via the relief on the principle private residence.

Plenty families in now wealthy parts of Dublin weren't all that wealthy areas years ago - the addition of Luas and DART paid for by taxpayers and improvements in infrastructure and facilities has made their areas far more desirable. Surely society is owed something back on this? The teachers living in areas by the DART didn't work any harder than teachers in Kildare did they?

There's a fit for CAT in the overall taxation system instead of just hammering people's incomes preventing them from accumulating wealth through their labour and having to pay the state pensions of their parents' generation which they themselves won't receive when the time comes.

Are the teachers on the dart line not also tax payers? Should everyone with a child pay extra tax for the children's hospital?

Id say the percentage of people living on the dart lines that are working tax payers is higher than a lot of other areas as these people need the public transport to get to work and pay extra for houses in those areas.

it's time to stop the situation where getting knocked up at 19 or 20 is all you need to do to get an income the equivalent of a 50k a year job
in government supports, and when you need a topup go out and find a crack in a footpath and get your claim in.

Dav010

listermint wrote: »

Interesting thread.

But as usual I think you'll find the most ardent opposers of high taxes on inheritance taxes are one and the same the very people who will shout from the rooftops about tightening your belt. Pulling your bootstraps. Getting out work and getting your own good education.

They give out reems about welfare and have quite right wing views on whats taxable and what's not.

Hardened for water charges for example.

Intriguing why that is but I suppose it's what's good for the goose and all that. Given the leg up they were given would the subscribe to the same views. ..
I doubt it.



Conditioning.

What leg up are you referring to?

Boredstiff666

The less you tax .....the more in the pocket ......the more there is to spend ......and the economy grows ....so there is more jobs .....so there is more tax revenue .....so the government has more to spend .....which means there is more jobs ......etc etc

Then along come the lefties.

No thats not fair.....that man has more than me thats not fair........we must tax people more......so they have less in the pocket.....so they have less to spend......so the economy faulters.....so there is LESS tax revenue......so there are less jobs.....so there is even more LESS tax revenue.......so then they blame the rich who still have money.