Wealth distribution through property taxation

kippy

Dav010 wrote: »

No one is saying if you work hard and save, you will accumulate wealth, what we are saying is that you have a better chance if you do, and should not be penalised just because others may not have the same work ethic or acumen as those who do become wealthy.

I don’t care if you think €250k is “enough” to help out your family through inheritance, if what I pass on is net of income already taxed, then taxing it a second time is unfair.

Life is unfair (a cliche but true) - be happy to be in the position to pass on hundred of thousands to your kids and be in the position where you have the ability and have had the background to be in a position to earn significant sums of money.

Boredstiff666

kippy wrote: »

Life is unfair (a cliche but true) - be happy to be in the position to pass on hundred of thousands to your kids and be in the position where you have the ability and have had the background to be in a position to earn significant sums of money.

No he may have worked and gone without and had kids later in life.

Generalising people to fit what you regard as wealthy is obscene.

anewme

Princess Calla wrote: »

In what way do you feel it unjust?

Everyone has parents so benefits them that way.

Your nieces can inherit circa 15k tax free....you can also gift them 3 k a year.

It’s unjust in general as it’s tax on people’s assets accumulated out of after tax earnings.

In addition, The thresholds for single people are eye wateringly prohibitive.

Maybe I’ve a lot more wealth than their parents, but maybe it can be passed across that way.

I won’t be Leaving 15k each and letting the Govt fleece a couple of hundred grand.

I’d rather burn it as someone else said.

kippy

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No he may have worked and gone without and had kids later in life.

Generalising people to fit what you regard as wealthy is obscene.

I am not generalising anyone and I don't have a "wealthy" definition to be honest.

Dav010

kippy wrote: »

Life is unfair (a cliche but true) - be happy to be in the position to pass on hundred of thousands to your kids and be in the position where you have the ability and have had the background to be in a position to earn significant sums of money.

What background is that?

blackbox

Income tax is a tax on work.
Inheritance tax is a tax on money received without doing any work.

I'd prefer to reduce income tax.

kippy

Dav010 wrote: »

What background is that?

1. Parents that put a value on education.
2. Parents that had the cop on to put a "work" ethic into their kids.
3. No debilitation health issues for yourself or your parents.
4. The ability to get money (via grants, hard work, or earned money) to put you through school/college.
5. Being brought up in an area where "work" and "education" were valued.
6. Having the "right friends".

etc etc

Boredstiff666

kippy wrote: »

I am not generalising anyone and I don't have a "wealthy" definition to be honest.

Someone who has the ability to leave a lot of dosh to kids.

Man is rich.........could have worked hard.......could have won lotto..........could have had serious injury and compo payout.

But you have them all in same boat......a hard worker.....a lucky person....and someone who suffers hardship.

kippy

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Someone who has the ability to leave a lot of dosh to kids.

Man is rich.........could have worked hard.......could have won lotto..........could have had serious injury and compo payout.

But you have them all in same boat......a hard worker.....a lucky person....and someone who suffers hardship.

It is Revenue that have them in the same boat - not me.
Tis a fairly black and white boat in their eyes.

anewme

kippy wrote: »

There are LOTS and LOTS of people out there who "Work Hard" getting up earlier in the morning (a nonsense concept, that the earlier you get up the harder worker you are) or that leave their families on a Sunday to return on a Friday and work hard all week in physically demanding jobs who never have and never will have the ability to give 250K tax free to each of their kids.

I am stating that the tax free allowances are perfectly adequate to give your kids a great help in life - and the tax levels on the figures above that aren't massively restrictive.

Again, I'd be delighted to be in a position to help my kids out to that extent, and even more so if I had to contend with the tax levels on top of that.
Financially life would be good.

I don’t have kids if you read my post.

I’ve 2 nieces only as we are a small family and I baulk at the thought of the majority of my assets going back to Revenue.

I do intend to get some tax advice next year as I’m not getting any younger.

kippy

anewme wrote: »

I don’t have kids if you read my post.

Then away ya go - burn the lot of it.

Princess Calla

anewme wrote: »

It’s unjust in general as it’s tax on people’s assets accumulated out of after tax earnings.

In addition, The thresholds for single people are eye wateringly prohibitive.

Maybe I’ve a lot more wealth than their parents, but maybe it can be passed across that way.

I won’t be Leaving 15k each and letting the Govt fleece a couple of hundred grand.

I’d rather burn it as someone else said.

Ah fair enough, I took you up wrong. I thought you meant all inheritance should be taxed as not everyone has children to pass it on.

I edited my post, I think it's 30 k for niece. 15 k is threshold c, stranger in blood.

There's also a life assurance policy...think it's section 76... That you can take out to cover tax liabilities on an estate. Might be worth a look in your situation

Dav010

blackbox wrote: »

Income tax is a tax on work.
Inheritance tax is a tax on money received without doing any work.

I'd prefer to reduce income tax.

Income tax is not a tax on work, it is a tax on income. When you pass on that taxed income, why should that income be taxed again?

kippy

Dav010 wrote: »

Income tax is not a tax on work, it is a tax on income. When you pass on that taxed income, why should that income be taxed again?

You do realise it's a tax on YOUR income. Inheritance tax is a tax on SOMEONE ELSES income.

In a similiar way a shopkeeper can say, sure why would I pay tax on that money that Dav010 spent in here - it's already been taxed.

Mellor

myshirt wrote: »

You can see it in the kids from the greater Dublin region living at home saving for a deposit, versus the kid up from the country paying rent and trying to save. The parents of those kids should be heavily taxed for that benefit, even if it were to just put a legal charge on the property that can be paid after the person does.

Taxing parents because they kids live at home. This is the absolute height of begrudger logic. Property in the country is cheaper, should be tax those living there more to balance it out.
And lower overheads means cheaper prices too. Lets add a country tax for all good to balance it out. Braindead

Diarmuid wrote: »

As I pointed out already, they are. I pay income tax and then VAT on everything I buy. Unlike someone who inherits money or assets. They only pay tax once.

VAT isn't income tax. Are you actually confusing the two and trying to lecture others on taxation. Jaysus

coffee_cake

a rare occasion where i'm in agreement with nox.
i pay income tax. i pay tax on any purchase. maybe i pay property tax as well.
then i die and suddenly it's 'oh they're freeloading'? or 'sorry for your loss, give me all your money or else'?
not a chance. ridiculous altogether

elperello

Interesting thread but the definition of wealth is pitched way too low.

Our tax code is double taxing those who work to get a bit ahead while failing to tackle those who work the system to maintain their position.

A couple of hundred grand and an average house is not real wealth.
While you are squabbling about the starter the really wealthy are making off with the main course and the silver cutlery to boot.

Wealth management, succession planning, family trusts, offshore investment vehicles and even tax exile all help to ensure that they get the best possible result in helping their children to inherit without encumbrance.

Mellor

bluewolf wrote: »

a rare occasion where i'm in agreement with nox.
i pay income tax. i pay tax on any purchase. maybe i pay property tax as well.
then i die and suddenly it's 'oh they're freeloading'?

It's nonsense logic.

Why does a death change anything. Surely kids are free loading all their life. Should pocket money be taxed? What about communion money?
Should there be a stay at home parent tax for any money a non-working spouse takes for the working spouses wages?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Dav010 wrote: »

Wealth distribution my ass. Unless you inherit money, people with wealth earned their wealth through hard work and good business choices, and they pay tax on those earnings, so I see no reason why they should be made pay a higher burden. Inheritance tax is fundamentally unfair, the parents have already been taxed on what they are passing on, inheritance tax is therefore effectively double taxation. If you want wealth, you work hard.

Except if you receive a large inheritance.

I don’t know where I stand on the whole inheritance tax thing because I haven’t given it much thought but somebody receiving a huge inheritance hasn’t necessarily worked very hard in their life.

I think the reason that there isn’t huge outrage at CAT rates and thresholds is because many people will never receive an inheritance big enough to exceed the parental threshold so it just seems a distant problem and, in a way, a nice problem to have.

Phoebas

bluewolf wrote: »

a rare occasion where i'm in agreement with nox.
i pay income tax. i pay tax on any purchase. maybe i pay property tax as well.
then i die and suddenly it's 'oh they're freeloading'? or 'sorry for your loss, give me all your money or else'?
not a chance. ridiculous altogether

You don't get taxed after your death.

The people who inherit from you didn't to anything to earn it, so it seems right that they should be expected to pay a reasonable amount of tax on this unearned income, especially when earned income is incurring a marginal rate of over 50%

There should be a reasonable threshold beyond which inherited wealth should be taxed. There's no good reason at all that wealth should be passed down generation after generation without the state taking a cut for redistribution.

_Brian

Everyone can’t be equal.

Some people work harder at school/college and get better paying jobs, they will most likely have better standards of living.

Lads I was at school with pissed about laughing and mocking those “swats” who worked hard. They were too clever to knuckle down, never had a summer job, many never had any job. They drink three nights a week while we rarely go out. Their kids are turning out the same.

I worked every summer from age 14. Worked through school and college, I’ve worked hard all my life, including some dirty ****ty jobs, as has my wife and all going to plan will have a house each for both of my kids, and a decent pension when we retire.

Why should my gift to my kids, earned through literally a lifetime of hard work, be taxed and given to the kids of layabouts who made no efforts to better their lives ?? Where is the fairness in that ??

kippy

_Brian wrote: »

Everyone can’t be equal.

Some people work harder at school/college and get better paying jobs, they will most likely have better standards of living.

Lads I was at school with pissed about laughing and mocking those “swats” who worked hard. They were too clever to knuckle down, never had a summer job, many never had any job. They drink three nights a week while we rarely go out. Their kids are turning out the same.

I worked every summer from age 14. Worked through school and college, I’ve worked hard all my life, including some dirty ****ty jobs, as has my wife and all going to plan will have a house each for both of my kids, and a decent pension when we retire.

Why should my gift to my kids, earned through literally a lifetime of hard work, be taxed and given to the kids of layabouts who made no efforts to better their lives ?? Where is the fairness in that ??

You'll be able pass on literally hundreds of thousands tax free.

Phoebas

_Brian wrote: »

.

Why should my gift to my kids, earned through literally a lifetime of hard work, be taxed and given to the kids of layabouts who made no efforts to better their lives ?? Where is the fairness in that ??

Where's the fairness in any tax?

More to the point, how us it more fair that you should have to pay tax on the money you worked hard to earn than someone else on money they got without doing any work to earn it?

Dav010

kippy wrote: »

You do realise it's a tax on YOUR income. Inheritance tax is a tax on SOMEONE ELSES income.

In a similiar way a shopkeeper can say, sure why would I pay tax on that money that Dav010 spent in here - it's already been taxed.

Now that is a nonsense argument.

An inheritance is something bequeathed to you, a gift on which tax has already been paid.

A retailer pays tax on income derived from the sale of goods and services, why you use this analogy is beyond me, it is in no way similar to inheritance.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

_Brian wrote: »

Everyone can’t be equal.

Some people work harder at school/college and get better paying jobs, they will most likely have better standards of living.

Lads I was at school with pissed about laughing and mocking those “swats” who worked hard. They were too clever to knuckle down, never had a summer job, many never had any job. They drink three nights a week while we rarely go out. Their kids are turning out the same.

I worked every summer from age 14. Worked through school and college, I’ve worked hard all my life, including some dirty ****ty jobs, as has my wife and all going to plan will have a house each for both of my kids, and a decent pension when we retire.

Why should my gift to my kids, earned through literally a lifetime of hard work, be taxed and given to the kids of layabouts who made no efforts to better their lives ?? Where is the fairness in that ??

The tax collected will go into a big pot to be used for all kinds of things, some of which you have benefitted from in your life and that your children will benefit from. You are taxed once on the income, not twice.

kippy

Dav010 wrote: »

Now that is a nonsense argument.

An inheritance is something bequeathed to you, a gift on which tax has already been paid.

A retailer pays tax on income derived from the sale of goods and services, why you use this analogy is beyond me, it is in no way similar to inheritance.

And what exactly do you class as the provision of your time and expertise to your employer? A service you get paid an income for?
An inheritance is an income for the person receiving it.

Eggs For Dinner

I'd burn my assets if I couldn't leave them to my family. I've worked hard all my life and paid enough tax to keep those in need. What I've accumulated is MINE to do with as I wish

kippy

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

I'd burn my assets if I couldn't leave them to my family. I've worked hard all my life and paid enough tax to keep those in need. What I've accumulated is MINE to do with as I wish

I doubt you'll find anyone arguing against that.

ml100

Phoebas wrote: »

Where's the fairness in any tax?

More to the point, how us it more fair that you should have to pay tax on the money you worked hard to earn than someone else on money they got without doing any work to earn it?

Because their family paid tax on the money they worked hard to earn and now you want more of that income redistributed to others who largely do nothing to deserve it, for me the tax redistribution in this country is already way generous to the large section of society that live their whole lives taking from the state.

Dav010

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Except if you receive a large inheritance.

I don’t know where I stand on the whole inheritance tax thing because I haven’t given it much thought but somebody receiving a huge inheritance hasn’t necessarily worked very hard in their life.

I think the reason that there isn’t huge outrage at CAT rates and thresholds is because many people will never receive an inheritance big enough to exceed the parental threshold so it just seems a distant problem and, in a way, a nice problem to have.

The older you and your family, if you have one, get, the more you will think about it. You will see that money you worked hard for, money set aside for your kids, being taxed heavily when you pass it on. Posters say your kids won’t have earned it, but you will have, and now the State takes a huge chunk of what you have already paid tax on, just because you want to give it to your kids. The people arguing for IT are those that feel aggrieved that others have done better and have assets to pass on.