J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

LineOfBeauty

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I don't know if you've ever tried to legally change your gender, it's really not an easy process. I think recently there was a case in the Netherlands of a man trying to change his age and it was denied.

I believe if a person is recognised as a gender then that person should have all the rights of that gender.

Here's the problem. What is gender then? If gender is just a social construct as we have all been told, then fine. A man is biologically a man, a woman is biologically a woman. There is nothing socially constructed about that.

You can choose to live as a woman, but that will not makes you a woman anymore than you can choose to live as a cat, but you will not be a cat.

Separate areas for men and women and certain rights for men and women exist and were designed for that specific sex. Not for a social construct.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

On a larger point, I do think going after transgender people is a horrible thing to do. They are probably amongst the most vulnerable people in society, I had the privilege of being able to hide my sexual orientation until I was ready to deal with it, transgender people don't have the same ability to hide who they are. They are so open to attack, and the abuse they suffer on a day to day basis leads to such serious mental health issues. I'd never want to be somebody who kicks down so to speak.

Kick down? Telling someone the truth is not kicking down. And nobody (here at least) is "going after" trans people. They are just not wilfully ignoring biology.

Where is your line? When do you say, "well that is demonstrably incorrect" when it comes to people choosing how want to be seen?

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Well at least you're comfortable with your misandry.

If you have any evidence that denying transwomen access to women's toilets makes women safer, then fire away.

The reason transwomen are virtually always targetted rather than transmen, is the exact same stupidity that made gay men the bigger target of hate in the 1980s above lesbians. Misandry. The belief that all men are sexual deviants, and any behaviour outside the norm is just some other angle to try and have sex with unwilling participants.

When you realise that transwomen aren't trans because it's a sexual thing, you'll understand why the arguments about toilets are ridiculous. Why are lesbians allowed to use women's toilets? Why are gay men allowed to use men's toilets?

Well that is up there with some of the "worst misrepresentations of what was said" ever.

Sheeps

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I don't know if you've ever tried to legally change your gender, it's really not an easy process. I think recently there was a case in the Netherlands of a man trying to change his age and it was denied.

I believe if a person is recognised as a gender then that person should have all the rights of that gender.

On a larger point, I do think going after transgender people is a horrible thing to do. They are probably amongst the most vulnerable people in society, I had the privilege of being able to hide my sexual orientation until I was ready to deal with it, transgender people don't have the same ability to hide who they are. They are so open to attack, and the abuse they suffer on a day to day basis leads to such serious mental health issues. I'd never want to be somebody who kicks down so to speak.

If you want to change your gender legally and live life identifying as a different gender role to the traditional gender roles associated with your birth sex, that's fine and I'll support you. But labelling people as transphobes for acknowledging that someone's underlying biological sex remains static in instances where people who have to do this is simply wrong.

Ireland is one of four countries in the world where someone can self identify their gender in order to legally transition. Trans people have all of the same rights as anyone else in this country.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's the problem. What is gender then? If gender is just a social construct as we have all been told, then fine. A man is biologically a man, a woman is biologically a woman. There is nothing socially constructed about that.

You can choose to live as a woman, but that will not makes you a woman anymore than you can choose to live as a cat, but you will not be a cat.

Separate areas for men and women and certain rights for men and women exist and were designed for that specific sex. Not for a social construct.

I think the argument made is that there are biological men, biological women and some degree of intersex.

"Male" and "female" are considered "genders" -- often prefixed with (cis-) to refer to someone whos gender aligns with their sex, and (trans-) with someone whos gender does not align with their sex.

Transgender can, at most then, only involve transitioning between a socially constructed identity of what characterises "male" into another socially constructed identity of what we characterise as "female".

In this case, sex has not changed.

So, why on Earth do we pretend otherwise?

cloudatlas

Everything is condemned as transphobia the olympic committee had come up with proposals that would mean testosterone levels would be further decreased but scientists could not agree, I assume on the acceptable level but they were still aiming to decrease it but this is seen as discrimination and terf bevhaviour even though these people are scientists working in the interests of fairness. You absolutely can’t win and I’ve shut up about my opinions in certain circles as I’m told that ‘all bodies are different’ MTF is the same as biologically female no advantage. It’s frustrating as being in the gym day in day out you know it’s not true. Sports fitness forums are a harder environment for trans people to deal with as there is push back and people won’t accept emotional blackmail in the face of scientific evidence.

seamus

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Right... but then you quoted the below part of Gynoid’s post and replied as follows (emphasis mine):

Yeah, but that wasn't the post you quoted. Different conversations.

Nevertheless, the implication is that women inherently have something to fear from transwomen in single-sex spaces. If that's the hill you guys wanna die on...

One eyed Jack

Spleerbun wrote: »

Jk Rowling is just the example here in this case. You've kind of missed the point I was making

Ahh no I got the point you were making - that you think people are afraid to speak out. I don’t think people are afraid to speak out at all, I think they just don’t care. They don’t care about trans politics, they don’t care about feminism, they don’t care about lesbian, gay or bisexual politics. Really essentially they don’t care about politics.

They care even less about JK Rowling or her opinions on anything, but if you’re of a progressive bent, JK making a target of herself is bound to get you all animated and excited, should keep her relevant in the public eye too for another while. The publicity in circumstances like this is a carcass that everyone gets to pick at.

cloudatlas

cloudatlas wrote: »

Everything is condemned as transphobia the olympic committee had come up with proposals that would mean testosterone levels would be further decreased but scientists could not agree, I assume on the acceptable level but they were still aiming to decrease it but this is seen as discrimination and terf bevhaviour even though these people are scientists working in the interests of fairness. You absolutely can’t win and I’ve shut up about my opinions in certain circles as I’m told that ‘all bodies are different’ MTF is the same as biologically female no advantage. It’s frustrating as being in the gym day in day out you know it’s not true. Sports fitness forums are a harder environment for trans people to deal with as there is push back and people won’t accept emotional blackmail in the face of scientific evidence.

When it comes to sport, we shouldn't even consider personal identification.

What matters is chromosomal identification. The rule should be:

An individual with XX cannot compete in an XY sport and vice versa.

Anyone else who doesn't agree to this rule has voluntarily excluded themselves from said competition.

Problem solved.

As for toilets, have a biological man toilet / biological woman toilet / and "Access Toilet" for everyone else.

Hoboo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As a committed member of the LGBT community, I find what is happening re: gender/sex to be nothing short of appalling.

You cannot change biological sex. There is no standard for "feeling like a woman". I am a man, and I have no idea what "feeling like a man" is, so how can biologically-born women "feel" this?

Second, you cannot be born into stereotypes. Long hair, make-up, attraction to pink etc., are all social constructions. You cannot be born into a social construction.

Third, biological sex is XX and XY. There are some aberrations, such as Kleinfelters, XXY etc., but these are aberrations. The claim here is that biological men or women can switch chromosomal sex. It is not possible.

Fourth, this is the only trans- category that is taken seriously by society. For example - there are some people who are able-bodied, but believe they were "born disabled". There are some in society now arguing that we should have the State pay for these people to become disabled to meet their "mental image". This is the equivalent of saying to an anorexic person, "you are fine the way you are, it has nothing to do with mental dysphoria".

There are many trans- men/women who are equally as appalled by what is going on, especially regarding the gender identity question.

I, as a member of the LGBT community, get completely sidelined. When people speak to me privately about this issue, they agree with me. But they dare not say it in public.

An extremist identity politics minority have taken over. They are vocal and dangerous and are destroying societal norms as we know them to be.

Best boards post of 2019 hands down.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, but that wasn't the post you quoted. Different conversations.

Nevertheless, the implication is that women inherently have something to fear from transwomen in single-sex spaces. If that's the hill you guys wanna die on...

For the love of jaysus. When somebody did bring up showers and changing areas, you changed tack.

And yes, I’d be happy to die on that hill. Is the ‘misandry’ hill the one you to die on?

keano_afc

Spleerbun wrote: »

What I just don't get is that, these online lunatics, these radical justice warriors who got this woman fired and say things like "terf" (just learned that word now)...they are clearly in an extreme minority. Nobody in the real world when you talk to them agrees with this stuff. It's the same reactions you see in this thread - incredulity, despair, annoyance etc.

And yet this subset of vocal extremists always seem to get their way? People are afraid to say what they actually think in public, companies fear them and will always pander to them with apologies, same with celebrities. It's seen as bad publicity, but if the majority don't actually agree with these wingnuts, surely standing up to them would be 'good' publicity, no? Surely JK Rowling should be whatever the opposite of "cancelled" is going forward seeing as 99% of us in the world agree with her?

I've been saying this for a long time now.

Never in human history has such a tiny minority wielded such power. That they somehow have the ears of politicians and NGOs despite being less than 1% of the general population is absolutely mystifying.

Hoboo

Hoboo wrote: »

Best boards post of 2020 hands down.

Well it's only 2019 but I suppose it can identify as 2020. Time is only a social construct.

TuringBot47

Deleted User wrote: »

So, why on Earth do we pretend otherwise?

Hard to take those realityphobes seriously in fairness.

Gynoid

There are honestly not enough expletives to convey how I feel about being called a misandrist.
One the one hand the UN has set up campaigns for single sex toilets in developing countries so that school attendance rates by girls are increased, because girls are often assaulted in toilets there.
And on the other hand the fcuking smug heroes in chinos on boards are fcuking calling women misandrists for seeking to protect single sex spaces for women.

I hope a warm flush of shame spreads over you some day for your horrible arrogance.

LineOfBeauty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here's the problem. What is gender then? If gender is just a social construct as we have all been told, then fine. A man is biologically a man, a woman is biologically a woman. There is nothing socially constructed about that.

You can choose to live as a woman, but that will not makes you a woman anymore than you can choose to live as a cat, but you will not be a cat.

Separate areas for men and women and certain rights for men and women exist and were designed for that specific sex. Not for a social construct.




Kick down? Telling someone the truth is not kicking down. And nobody (here at least) is "going after" trans people. They are just not wilfully ignoring biology.

Where is your line? When do you say, "well that is demonstrably incorrect" when it comes to people choosing how want to be seen?

I don't know what gender is, why does gender have to have a confined definition? Why can't people accept that some people feel they've been born in the wrong body and want to change that rather than living a lie their entire life? And when they go through that long, arduous process there's still people who deny them basic rights, who treat them like 2nd class citizens? No, that's not right.

Nobody takes this decision lightly, nobody wakes up in the morning and chooses a life where or ridicule, a life in which they are so much more likely to kill themselves than the average person. Of any minority in our society they are the easiest target and yet they have the bravery to be who they are, to just try to live the life they feel they've been denied, why is that wrong? How could anybody be so heartless as to attack somebody in that horrible situation?

If you think nobody is kicking down or not going after transgender people then you have not read the thread or comments elsewhere about the case.

Why is there a line? When hundreds of thousands of people wake up feeling like they were born the wrong species, when those people endure hundreds of years of oppression that continues to this day, when they finally win their rights in court and yet still the man on the street wants to deny them even the most basic acknowledgement of their identity then we will talk about your line, because all it is, is pure whatabouttery.

facehugger99

If some bloke, who identifies as a woman tries to go into the women's changing room at our gym when my daughter is in there, I'm dragging him out by the balls.

Self-identify to your hearts content in your own property.

seamus

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

For the love of jaysus. When somebody did bring up showers and changing areas, you changed tack.

Yes, because showers and changing areas are an entirely different conversation to toilets.

If you think you feel uncomfortable about a trans person in a changing room, imagine how uncomfortable the trans person feels about it. A toilet is just a stall you go into. It doesn't matter what you look like. That's why it's an entirely different conversation.

Is the ‘misandry’ hill the one you to die on?

Absolutely. ^^ There's a post right above mine which demonstrates it perfectly. "All Biological males represent a threat to my daughter and must be dealt with violently".

TuringBot47

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Why can't people accept that some people feel they've been born in the wrong body and want to change that rather than living a lie their entire life?

Nobody is stopping them from doing 99% of what they want.


However the "lie" is that they have changed biological sex.
So they want to live the lie and the most extremist of the trans community are attacking businesses and individuals who don't play along with their fantasy.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

An interesting letter sent to the Times from some biologists recently. I highlight ‘biologist’ because often the academics involved in this issue are humanities-based.

LineOfBeauty

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I don't know what gender is, why does gender have to have a confined definition? Why can't people accept that some people feel they've been born in the wrong body and want to change that rather than living a lie their entire life? And when they go through that long, arduous process there's still people who deny them basic rights, who treat them like 2nd class citizens? No, that's not right.

Nobody takes this decision lightly, nobody wakes up in the morning and chooses a life where or ridicule, a life in which they are so much more likely to kill themselves than the average person. Of any minority in our society they are the easiest target and yet they have the bravery to be who they are, to just try to live the life they feel they've been denied, why is that wrong? How could anybody be so heartless as to attack somebody in that horrible situation?

If you think nobody is kicking down or not going after transgender people then you have not read the thread or comments elsewhere about the case.

Why is there a line? When hundreds of thousands of people wake up feeling like they were born the wrong species, when those people endure hundreds of years of oppression that continues to this day, when they finally win their rights in court and yet still the man on the street wants to deny them even the most basic acknowledgement of their identity then we will talk about your line, because all it is, is pure whatabouttery.

You talk about laws protecting gender and the rights of people based on their gender and the need to be accepting of people's gender identity.

Yet you have no idea what gender is and don't see a need for it to be defined?

Seriously?

LineOfBeauty

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I don't know what gender is, why does gender have to have a confined definition? Why can't people accept that some people feel they've been born in the wrong body and want to change that rather than living a lie their entire life? And when they go through that long, arduous process there's still people who deny them basic rights, who treat them like 2nd class citizens? No, that's not right.

That response demands two questions:

a) They have a right to "transition" to look like a man/woman, but does that make them a biological man or biological woman, in your view?

b) There are thousands of able-bodied people who believe they were born into a disabled body. Are you happy to support them, too, to ensure their mental image matches their desire to have a disabled body? For example, they may want to be made blind as they believe they were born that way. If not, why not?

Winning_Stroke

facehugger99 wrote: »

If some bloke, who identifies as a woman tries to go into the women's changing room at our gym when my daughter is in there, I'm dragging him out by the balls.

Self-identify to your hearts content in your own property.

This pretty much. We can all play along and be polite to the individuals involved, sure. No problem. But when it starts to impact our lives, well reality can't be denied. Like if I went to a blind date and was met by some bloke in a dress who had his lad chopped off... well, that's not a woman and there's no way I'd continue the evening because I'm not into men.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

seamus wrote: »

Yes, because showers and changing areas are an entirely different conversation to toilets.

If you think you feel uncomfortable about a trans person in a changing room, imagine how uncomfortable the trans person feels about it. A toilet is just a stall you go into. It doesn't matter what you look like. That's why it's an entirely different conversation.

Whose comfort is more important here? I’m not saying one over the other. What do you think?

I actually have real life experience of this though which I will go into more detail about later.

LineOfBeauty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You talk about laws protecting gender and the rights of people based on their gender and the need to be accepting of people's gender identity.

Yet you have no idea what gender is and don't see a need for it to be defined?

Seriously?

Gender, like so many things in society, changes as a society changes. What gender is now is not what gender was a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago. Definitions of such things change with time and should reflect society. And we live in a society where a sub section of people are used as a trojan horse for the alt right and who are openly discriminated against in everyday life.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Gender, like so many things in society, changes as a society changes. What gender is now is not what gender was a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago. Definitions of such things change with time and should reflect society. And we live in a society where a sub section of people are used as a trojan horse for the alt right and who are openly discriminated against in everyday life.

According to my art history studies, gender has been broadly the same going back centuries. Fashions have changed but the delineation has always been clear.

LineOfBeauty

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Gender, like so many things in society, changes as a society changes. What gender is now is not what gender was a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago. Definitions of such things change with time and should reflect society. And we live in a society where a sub section of people are used as a trojan horse for the alt right and who are openly discriminated against in everyday life.

Gender changes, like all social constructions -- and will continue to change henceforth.

But sex has not changed one bit, not an inch -- and nor will it ever.

LineOfBeauty

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Gender, like so many things in society, changes as a society changes. What gender is now is not what gender was a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago. Definitions of such things change with time and should reflect society. And we live in a society where a sub section of people are used as a trojan horse for the alt right and who are openly discriminated against in everyday life.

But do you know what is the same as a hundred or a thousand years ago?

The difference between men and women.

That will not ever change.

LineOfBeauty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But do you know what is the same as a hundred or a thousand years ago?

The difference between men and women.

That will not ever change.

What are the differences?

LineOfBeauty

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What are the differences?

XX and XY.

LineOfBeauty

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What are the differences?

Really? Are you saying that you honestly think there are no differences between a man and a woman?