J. K. Rowling is cancelled because she is a T.E.R.F [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

Phil Bogan

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

What joke?

The Jews being good with money.

Errashareesh

Phil Bogan wrote: »

Women blindly follow liberal causes and this is what they get.

I would say one of the most supportive groups of trans people have been feminists, yes - for trans people not to be mistreated, for recognition of transgender as a real thing. That's fair to me, but denying biology was never part of the deal.

Phil Bogan

Errashareesh wrote: »

I would say one of the most supportive groups of trans people have been feminists, yes - for trans people not to be mistreated, for recognition of transgender as a real thing. That's fair to me, but denying biology was never part of the deal.

Well, like I say you blindly followed the liberal agenda and now you have male rapists in female prisons, men crushing women in female sports, soon you'll have men in your private spaces, like bathrooms. And you can't even speak out about it.

I hate to say 'I told you so' but...

Ash.J.Williams

Phil Bogan wrote: »

The Jews being good with money.

He said a bit more than that

Phil Bogan

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

He said a bit more than that

"Myers further alleged that Claudia Winkleman and Vanessa Feltz are higher paid than other female presenters because they are Jewish.[3] He wrote: "Jews are not generally noted for their insistence on selling their talent for the lowest possible price, which is the most useful measure there is of inveterate, lost-with-all-hands stupidity"

Yes it's practically another Shoah. Oy vey!

raclle

Phil Bogan wrote: »

soon you'll have men in your private spaces, like bathrooms. And you can't even speak out about it.

Oh it'll be much worse than that and then you'll see a complete change in opinion

Errashareesh

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

OMG TRANSPHOBE.

Agree with everything you say except the bolded bit. Female is the one thing that cannot be identified into. Or male. That’s biological sex, not gender.

Just for clarification on this ODB - is it not correct to state that a trans woman identifies as being the female gender?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Errashareesh wrote: »

Just for clarification on this ODB - is it not correct to state that a trans woman identifies as being the female gender?

‘Female’ refers to biological sex. Like, a woman can be gender non-conforming (or ‘tomboyish’ in old money) but she’s still female. A transgender woman will always be male. Unless of course if we ever do find a way to change biological sex.

I mean, what would ‘female gender’ entail? Just a collection of stereotypes?

Errashareesh

I wouldn't refer to a trans woman as a woman of course but is it incorrect to say that a trans woman views her gender as female? This isn't a criticism, just seeking clarification.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Errashareesh wrote: »

I wouldn't refer to a trans woman as a woman of course but is it incorrect to say that a trans woman views her gender as female? This isn't a criticism, just seeking clarification.

I don’t know how else to say it really. Female and male are sex classes. What would female gender entail, considering that women and men are many and varied? The non-variables are rooted in biology. Everything else is just personality.

Try to define ‘female gender’. Or ‘male gender’. Can you do so without referring to biology or gender stereotypes or a nebulous “feeling”?

I’m not trying to be confrontational. I’m really just asking.

ceadaoin.

Errashareesh wrote: »

I wouldn't refer to a trans woman as a woman of course but is it incorrect to say that a trans woman views her gender as female? This isn't a criticism, just seeking clarification.

That's conflating sex and gender. To me, a trans woman is someone who identifies as a woman (gender) but is still a male (sex). I mean, we still need words to mean things. Female and male are biological terms and its impossible to change from one to the other. Obviously I would refer to them in their preferred pronouns etc but they are still a male person.

Gruffalux

ceadaoin. wrote: »

That's conflating sex and gender. To me, a trans woman is someone who identifies as a woman (gender) but is still a male (sex). I mean, we still need words to mean things. Female and male are biological terms and its impossible to change from one to the other. Obviously I would refer to them in their preferred pronouns etc but they are still a male person.

Yes the conflation of sex and gender has been the dangerous part. The imposition of untruthfulness out of an excess of political correctness and trying to enforce it on all others, to compel all of us to say things that are not true. And it has led to terrible things with children.
If a child says I don't want to be a boy, to say to the child you are born in the wrong body and can become a girl is an actual lie. It is better to tell them the truth. You can express yourself as a girl completely. You can dress and live and feel as feminine as you wish but you cannot actually become a female child. The child would also need support and counselling like any other child who has body dysmorphia or anxiety etc.
To tell a child they can actually change sex is a terrible thing. Then they are given blockers which not only stunt their bodies but stop the brain maturing because it is the pubertal hormones that complete the frontal lobes development. IQ is affected. The frontal lobes mediate impulsiveness and aid long term thinking. With their under development the child continues to process life with the amygdala part of the brain, which is emotional. It is where fight or flight happens. It is a part of the brain that easily gets stuck in trauma etc.

Anyways I could go on too long. The conflation of gender with biological sex is a dangerous lie. It is also regressive. Boys like swords. Girls like pink tutus.

suicide_circus

Conflating sex and gender.....

When 99.9% of people of the male sex are men (of the male gender) then they are going to be conflated. It seems to me the mistake was imaging sex and gender were completely unrelated with gender being this indefinable ethereal element floating in the breeze. For the vast majority of humans, they are one and the same.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

Conflating sex and gender.....

When 99.9% of people of the male sex are men (of the male gender) then they are going to be conflated. It seems to me the mistake was imaging sex and gender were completely unrelated with gender being this indefinable ethereal element floating in the breeze. For the vast majority of humans, they are one and the same.

But a person who is biologically male can be girly. A female can be very masculine. Any man can have very feminine qualities like being easily emotional, or writing love poems, or designing ballgowns. Or whatever. None of us are constrained by gender expression but we used to be. Like men go to war, women make dinner. Automatic gender roles.
It was part of what made things hard for gay people. A butch woman was frowned on. A feminine gay man was despised. The imposition of gender expression expectations was terrible for so many. Gay and straight.
I think the sexes can and do express gender variously. I think designated or compulsory gender expression was what was anti human rights. There is terrible regressiveness inherent in telling a feminine boy that he is a girl.

suicide_circus

So we're defining gender by the antiquated stereotypes we're trying to leave behind...as you say, terribly regressive. A "girly male" is still a man.

Also, defining gender by the experience of the 0.1% rather than that of the 99.9% seems insane to me.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

So we're defining gender by the antiquated stereotypes we're trying to leave behind...as you say, terribly regressive. A "girly male" is still a man.

Also, defining gender by the experience of the 0.1% rather than that of the 99.9% seems insane to me.

I agree with you. A girly man is male.

I don 't agree with the antiquated gender stereotypes. This new fangled thing of defining a person's sex by their gendered expressions seems bizarre.

The thing we seem to disagree on is this 99.9% thing you mention that all males express manly genderishness ( and 99.9% of females express feminine genderishness). I just don't think they do. But I think we are on the same page except for semantics.

As an example I do the DIY in our house in the sense that I have an engineering style way of understanding things and know what needs to be done to fix something. This might be considered quite a masculine gendered trait but I am female. It is just I spent a lot of time watching my Dad who was an engineer and handyman. This is a conditioned quality. I learned it because he did not shoo me and say go do girly stuff. Often I cannot lift the heavy stuff or tighten the bolts tight enough but my husband easily does that. That is where the factuality of biological sex comes in. He is just stronger than me which is an immutable quality. Gender expression is variable. Sex is unchangeable.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalox wrote: »

I agree with you. A girly man is male.

I don 't agree with the antiquated gender stereotypes. This new fangled thing of defining a person's sex by their gendered expressions seems bizarre.

The thing we seem to disagree on is this 99.9% thing you mention that all males express manly genderishness ( and 99.9% of females express feminine genderishness). I just don't think they do. But I think we are on the same page except for semantics.

As an example I do the DIY in our house in the sense that I have an engineering style way of understanding things and know what needs to be done to fix something. This might be considered quite a masculine gendered trait but I am female. It is just I spent a lot of time watching my Dad who was an engineer and handyman. This is a conditioned quality. I learned it because he did not shoo me and say go do girly stuff. Often I cannot lift the heavy stuff or tighten the bolts tight enough but my husband easily does that. That is where the factuality of biological sex comes in. He is just stronger than me which is an immutable quality. Gender expression is variable. Sex is unchangeable.

Great way to explain it

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Great way to explain it

Thanks but I realise SC said a girly male is a man and I said A girly man is male. I just think we are meaning the same thing. Masculine expression and feminine expression versus male/man and female/woman might be better. Though I do think a feminine male may be a transwoman. They are just not a biological fenale.

JoannaJag

Errashareesh wrote: »

I wouldn't refer to a trans woman as a woman of course but is it incorrect to say that a trans woman views her gender as female? This isn't a criticism, just seeking clarification.

I think yes, most trans women view themselves as female. I also would probably refer to transwomen and trans girls as woman or girl or even female in a day to day language. However for me this is a courtesy, as I think it is with most people.

The conflict (for me) only comes when the narrative insists they are 100% women and the rest of us are a majority subset of woman, called cis. Which in turn means that any attempt to organise any resource for (actual) female only spaces is immediately transphobic and exclusionary against a poor, vulnerable minority (males).

suicide_circus

Gruffalox wrote: »

I agree with you. A girly man is male.

I don 't agree with the antiquated gender stereotypes. This new fangled thing of defining a person's sex by their gendered expressions seems bizarre.

The thing we seem to disagree on is this 99.9% thing you mention that all males express manly genderishness ( and 99.9% of females express feminine genderishness)

I don't mean that

My 99.9% is the amount of males who think they are men.
The 0.1% (being generous) is the amount of males who think they are women.

Personal expression is a matter for the individual and I don't see where the state has a role in that, gender certificates...what?

suicide_circus

JoannaJag wrote: »

I think yes, most trans women view themselves as female. I also would probably refer to transwomen and trans girls as woman or girl or even female in a day to day language. However for me this is a courtesy, as I think it is with most people.

A courtesy which is abused by a vocal minority.

TCM

A biological man can never be a biological woman and visa versa. It's as simple as that.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

I don't mean that

My 99.9% is the amount of males who think they are men.
The 0.1% (being generous) is the amount of males who think they are women.

Personal expression is a matter for the individual and I don't see where the state has a role in that, gender certificates...what?

Well I suppose it is a good question - why has the state got a role here?

On a lot of levels I think the state has seriously overstepped the mark by trying to enforce ascientific untruths such as attempting to insist transwomen are indistinguishable from women or transmen are indistinguishable from men and therefore entitled by law to sex-based access and protection. And what has been legally permitted to happen to minors is terrible.

On the other hand I think transpeople need statute based protections, such as third spaces. Transwomen should not be imprisoned with men for example. Nor should trans identifying males be imprisoned with women. They also need a legal recognition that allows access to state funded treatments as adults if they would feel their dysphoria would improve with such treatments. Etc.

suicide_circus

Gruffalox wrote: »

On the other hand I think transpeople need statute based protections, such as third spaces. Transwomen should not be imprisoned with men for example. Nor should trans identifying males be imprisoned with women. They also need a legal recognition that allows access to state funded treatments as adults if they would feel their dysphoria would improve with such treatments. Etc.

Agreed but there simply isnt enough demand for third spaces to make them viable in pretty much any context.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

Agreed but there simply isnt enough demand for third spaces to make them viable in pretty much any context.

I don't know about that. Look at the infrastrucural response to covid. Whole systems changed. Almost overnight. As I have said before we are an advanced civilisation and would not have to hew third spaces out of rock with bone tools. A unisex cubicle will cover most public venues. Converting a store room to a bathroom or changing facility is not beyond possibilities. A separate ward or independent prison cell system will probably not cost much more than having 2 guards assigned to personally monitor a male bodied prisoner who identifies as a woman in a place wher women cannot retreat. Actually one of the simplest solutions is to make the male sex based spaces unisex while reserving the female spaces to girls and women.

suicide_circus

But in a world where transwomen are women, who is it using the third space prison cell or unisex/male bathroom.

Danzy

suicide_circus wrote: »

But in a world where transwomen are women, who is it using the third space prison cell or unisex/male bathroom.

Biologically born women who use it when the ques are too long in their designated one.

Gruffalux

suicide_circus wrote: »

But in a world where transwomen are women, who is it using the third space prison cell or unisex/male bathroom.

You know that I believe women are adult human females. Transwomen are transwomen.

It has been one of the strange things about this radical activism that it has insisted female spaces be taken and repurposed to what is essentially unisex given that self identification is all that is needed and some people are gender fluid and may identify randomly depending on mood.
Why have male spaces not been focused on for repurposing? Men, women, transwomen, and transmen could all use the self ID third space that is now male. Sports, bathrooms, crises accommodation etc all solved in one fell swoop. Women and girls who have extra needs based on biological realities can maintain their sex based spaces in wards, refuges, cells, toilets, changing facilities and sports. Etc

Why does the domain of the female have to be conquered?

I don't know.

I think in part it is because many trans allies and activists are fundamentally misogynists. TERF is the new breeder.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gruffalox wrote: »

I don't know about that. Look at the infrastrucural response to covid. Whole systems changed. Almost overnight. As I have said before we are an advanced civilisation and would not have to hew third spaces out of rock with bone tools. A unisex cubicle will cover most public venues. Converting a store room to a bathroom or changing facility is not beyond possibilities. A separate ward or independent prison cell system will probably not cost much more than having 2 guards assigned to personally monitor a male bodied prisoner who identifies as a woman in a place wher women cannot retreat. Actually one of the simplest solutions is to make the male sex based spaces unisex while reserving the female spaces to girls and women.

I don’t know, I think men deserve their own sex-segregated spaces too even though the physical balance is in their favour. Men might not exactly be thrilled at changing next to a biological female. Their comfort is important too.

I have to say though that as a thought experiment, the suggestion of there being just unisex spaces and female spaces is a brilliant one. Because you just know it would be summarily dismissed by so many people. It neatly highlights that women are just expected to roll over.

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know, I think men deserve their own sex-segregated spaces too even though the physical balance is in their favour. Men might not exactly be thrilled at changing next to a biological female. Their comfort is important too.

I have to say though that as a thought experiment, the suggestion of there being just unisex spaces and female spaces is a brilliant one. Because you just know it would be summarily dismissed by so many people. It neatly highlights that women are just expected to roll over.

Ah no I do think they need their own spaces. They need privacy. Just trying to rephrase what is happening.