Unionists and a United Ireland.

Seth Brundle

mod: ok let's get back onto the thread topic rather than the EU vs UK. Thanks.

happychristmas

Unionists will be treated the same as everyone else when we reunite. It's not going to be like their protestant state for a protestant people. When the day comes and democracy for Irish people is eventually recognised, it's important that extreme unionists are not allowed to start a war like the started in the 60's/70's. Back then they had the support of the British armed forces and the ruc in forcing Irish people to remain in the UK through violent means. Together they murdered over 1,000 innocent nationalists. I can't see the British armed forces assisting them again, the ruc is gone, yes some elements of the psni will join their ranks but the extreme unionists will be outnumbered and they'll have to accept the democratic wishes of the people of Ireland.

salonfire

Ireland doesn't want a united Ireland anyway so this thread's moot.

When push comes to shove, Irish people will protect their own pockets first above any sense of nationality and unity, see the behaviour of the public sector unions when Ireland was running out of money and the various tax evasion scams as evidence

salonfire

salonfire wrote: »

Ireland doesn't want a united Ireland anyway so this thread's moot.

When push comes to shove, Irish people will protect their own pockets first above any sense of nationality and unity, see the behaviour of the public sector unions when Ireland was running out of money and the various tax evasion scams as evidence

Thats the public sector unions that agreed to pay cuts and pension levies for their members. After builders and bankers crashed the economy.

BonnieSituation

salonfire wrote: »

Ireland doesn't want a united Ireland anyway so this thread's moot.

When push comes to shove, Irish people will protect their own pockets first above any sense of nationality and unity, see the behaviour of the public sector unions when Ireland was running out of money and the various tax evasion scams as evidence

Salonfire has spoken. No need for referenda so.

salonfire

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Salonfire has spoken. No need for referenda so.

Have your referendum, but you'll not find actual solid support in the South I suspect.

How often do you hear people in the Republic wax lyrical about the people of the North? Or its sport, its music, its attractions, etc? I certainly rarely hear it.

How many of us take holidays there ?

The North is usually spoken about in pessimistic terms and only comes to our attention while the Six-One news is covering some bonfire, riot or other.

con___manx1

salonfire wrote: »

Have your referendum, but you'll not find actual solid support in the South I suspect.

How often do you hear people in the Republic wax lyrical about the people of the North? Or its sport, its music, its attractions, etc? I certainly rarely hear it.

How many of us take holidays there ?

The North is usually spoken about in pessimistic terms and only comes to our attention while the Six-One news is covering some bonfire, riot or other.

If that's all you have seen on the six one news about the North your not to old.
It used to make world news up there quite often for a few decades.

FrancieBrady

salonfire wrote: »

Have your referendum, but you'll not find actual solid support in the South I suspect.

How often do you hear people in the Republic wax lyrical about the people of the North? Or its sport, its music, its attractions, etc? I certainly rarely hear it.

How many of us take holidays there ?

The North is usually spoken about in pessimistic terms and only comes to our attention while the Six-One news is covering some bonfire, riot or other.

How often do you hear people in the Republic wax lyrical about the people of the _______

A 'fill in the gap' game for Christmas. Try it, by filling in with other counties/parts of Ireland.

By the way loads of people 'holiday' in the north and loads more would if it was marketed the same as Donegal.

Are you saying 'southeners' don't cherish the poets, the musicians of many genres & styles, the comedians, actors and craftspeople and artisans of the north as they do those from other parts??? etc etc

Your post is frankly ridiculous.

fly_agaric

McGiver wrote: »

Yeah, that's an issue.

Suppose its unlikely to arise.
All IMO, but I really can't see border poll ever being held under a Conservative government, no matter how public opinion might shift in NI post Brexit.
Conservatives may have traded away some effective control of NI to the EU to get what they want re. Brexit (the bigger goal in their eyes) but allowing NI to vote themselves completely out of the UK will never happen under their watch. They are still attached enough to concept of the "union" and the UK once the constituent parts don't get too uppity with voting for people they don't like (!). I'd say idea of holding such referenda will be toxic for conservative party leaders for a generation now after Cameron's gambling. He just about got lucky on Scotland as well...thought he would win that one by a landslide I think.

tayto lover

fly_agaric wrote: »

Suppose its unlikely to arise.
All IMO, but I really can't see border poll ever being held under a Conservative government, no matter how public opinion might shift in NI post Brexit.
Conservatives may have traded away some effective control of NI to the EU to get what they want re. Brexit (the bigger goal in their eyes) but allowing NI to vote themselves completely out of the UK will never happen under their watch. They are still attached enough to concept of the "union" and the UK once the constituent parts don't get too uppity with voting for people they don't like (!). I'd say idea of holding such referenda will be toxic for conservative party leaders for a generation now after Cameron's gambling. He just about got lucky on Scotland as well...thought he would win that one by a landslide I think.

Yep. I cannot see a Border Poll under Tory rule.
Labour are in tatters too so we won’t see them back for many years either.

Hamsterchops

So aproximately 40% of the Northern Ireland population would like Northern Ireland to leave the United Kingdom, add to that a luke warm drive by the people of the South for the North to become part of this jurisdiction, yet Sinn Fein cannot stop themselves demanding a border poll at every turn!

What to do?

Well there are a few hints brewing in the background, firstly we have Brexit & all the cafuffle regarding Scotland and "will they" or won't they"??? And if they do leave the Union where does that leave NI?

So if the United Kingdom does break up, might NI attach itself to Scotland? or remain with the rump of the UK (England & Wales), or might NI travel in the direction of the ROI? or might NI do an inbetweener, by which I mean like the channel Islands or the Isle of Man... Not part of the UK, yet connected as a 'Crown dependency'?

Then there's the talk of a bridge between NI & Scotland, night that muddy the waters further?

Don't hear much about that, yet it's there as an option, like a half way house neither in the UK nor too far away either. The "Sinn Fein version" of a United Ireland is as far away as it's ever been, it's a pipe dream imagining NI adopting the Tricolour & the current ROI anthem, that simple takeover just isn't going to happen.

My own personal hunch is that in twenty or thirty years time " an agreed Ireland" might come into being. Neither Green nor Orenge, but like South Africa a totally new State could be born, with new flag, new anthem, new allegiance, new alignment, but no takeover by the South > that will never happen.

Should let them have their vote now, let it die on its arse, and put it to bed for at least 30 years.

Scotland would need to want NI in the first place, why would it?

Hamsterchops

Very close ties between Scotland & NI geographically & genetically, with many Scottish blood ties & traditions. Most of the people identify with either Ulster Scots or Irish Republicanism.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Very close ties between Scotland & NI, with many Scottish blood ties & traditions. Most of the people identify with either Ulster Scots or Irish Republicanism.

Fair enough, can't see that great a gra from the Scots for the place myself.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Very close ties between Scotland & NI geographically & genetically, with many Scottish blood ties & traditions. Most of the people identify with either Ulster Scots or Irish Republicanism.

British Isles 2025? 2030 maybe?

Hamsterchops

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

British Isles 2025? 2030 maybe?

British Isles already exits, always will do as a geographic group of rocks, but that's totally & utterly irrelavent in a political context, we're talking borders & Nationality here....Irish, British, Ulster Scots, European etc....

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

British Isles already exits, always will do as a geographic group of rocks, but that's totally & utterly irelavent in a political context, were talking borders & Nationality here....Irish, British, Ulster Scots, European etc....

I meant what they might look like politically. Do you honestly think I didn’t know the British Isles already existed or what the name meant. Jesus Christ.

Hamsterchops

Best then not to use the term here as it has no purpose in this context.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Best then not to use the term here as it has no purpose in this context.

The pair of islands are the British isles regardless of what way the borders are drawn. Any other description is too long winded, so it has plenty of purpose in describing any map of the two islands.

Sinbad_NI

If Scotland do leave the UK, which is looking more likely than ever after the last couple of years, I'd be absolutely astonished if NI did anything other than remain in Union with England and Wales.

Seth Brundle

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

If Scotland do leave the UK, which is looking more likely than ever after the last couple of years, I'd be absolutely astonished if NI did anything other than remain in Union with England and Wales.

How would remaining in a Scotland-less UK benefit NI?

Hamsterchops

I'm not suggesting that NI would stay with England & Wales, but if they did then I guess they would benefit greatly as their piece of the financial pie (The Barnett formula) would increase!

Scotland's financial loss would be NI's gain?

McGiver

Hamsterchops wrote:

I'm not suggesting that NI would stay with England & Wales, but if they did then I guess they would benefit greatly as their piece of the financial pie (The Barnett formula) would increase!

You would expect that formula to be removed or changed in the event of the second largest nation leaving the union. All my money on it, Westminster (i.e
The English elite) would grab the opportunity.

Kermit.de.frog

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that NI would stay with England & Wales, but if they did then I guess they would benefit greatly as their piece of the financial pie (The Barnett formula) would increase!

Scotland's financial loss would be NI's gain?

Doubt your assumption is compatible with the rise of English nationalism to be honest.

If Scotland goes I doubt the English will see any point in business as usual and will leave themselves.

Sinbad_NI

Seth Brundle wrote: »

How would remaining in a Scotland-less UK benefit NI?

I didn't say it would.

However, the huge majority of NI business is with the rest of the UK. Leaving that block (even of either leave) would be a vast upheaval. That's not even thinking about the public sector, NHS and who knows what else.

FrancieBrady

I don't think I have ever read anything quite like this. Never mind him indulging in the typically DUPish quirk of lashing out at anything 'themuns' did in the most disparaging and unconnected way to make light of DUP mistakes, his uncritical and simpering need for redemption for the DUP is a sight to read. Not to mind his echoing of some opinion here 'Lie down everyone else, these people will come good eventually...'
I don't think it's gonna be a Happy New Year for poor Tommy.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/1230/1103562-northern-ireland/?fbclid=IwAR2m6io38y9sG30q3UehRWEKiQXzQWOAG_Y1SKASzoIXWoFFBV4XOVgm15s

Hamsterchops

Tommy Gorman, can anybody even understand his own particular brand of gobbledygook? OMG he just rattles on in the most obscure fashion before he finally gets to the topic, usually about two thirds into the mire...

Charles Babbage

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I didn't say it would.

However, the huge majority of NI business is with the rest of the UK. Leaving that block (even of either leave) would be a vast upheaval. That's not even thinking about the public sector, NHS and who knows what else.

NI does a lot of business with GB, but some of the figure you see are a fraud as they count trade with the UK, including NI itself. In any case trade will continue, just as the ROI will do a lot of business with GB. In the last year NI is doing less business with GB and more with the rest of the world and this will continue, as GB will not be thriving.

Hamsterchops

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Tommy Gorman, can anybody even understand his own particular brand of gobbledygook? OMG he just rattles on in the most obscure fashion before he finally gets to the topic, usually about two thirds into the mire...

This was particularly meandering. It seems he knows where he's going in his own head, but whether it's a fuller article that gets clipped to meet word limit or otherwise it translates poorly. Still get the gist of it... but, you'd expect more clarity.