London Bridge Incident - mod warning in OP

Slowyourrole

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Again you are wrong. You are not illegal if you present yourself for an asylum application. The issue is not illegal immigrants. The issue is the delay and failure in removing people who have failed in their applications.

Again, you are wrong.

Definition of an asylum seeker:

• a person who has left their home country as a political refugee and is seeking asylum in another.

Those migrating were not asylum seekers. Up to 80% of them were not leaving their countries as political refugees; they were leaving for purely selfish, economic reasons.

Syrians escaping the war, yes, but not all migrants en masse.

Slowyourrole

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, you are wrong.

Definition of an asylum seeker:

• a person who has left their home country as a political refugee and is seeking asylum in another.

Those migrating were not asylum seekers. Up to 80% of them were not leaving their countries as political refugees; they were leaving for purely selfish, economic reasons.

Syrians escaping the war, yes, but not all migrants en masse.

They are asylum seekers until a decision is made on their application. After that they are either refugees or immigrants. They are not illegal immigrants unless they try and avoid the process.

Slowyourrole

Slowyourrole wrote: »

They are asylum seekers until a decision is made on their application. After that they are either refugees or immigrants. They are not illegal immigrants unless they try and avoid the process.

How convenient, then.

That perspective means that literally tens of millions of people can now descend upon Europe because, in your view, "we have to process their application to see if they are genuine asylum seekers".

Look how well that's turned out.

Most go missing and do not follow those rules.

Again, according to the EU, 80% of migrants are not refugees or genuine asylum seekers.

Be right back

Rvsmmnps wrote: »

Won't be going to London anytime soon.

I was close when it happened and the police reacted so quickly. Lots of security around the city.

Slowyourrole

Deleted User wrote: »

How convenient, then.

That perspective means that literally tens of millions of people can now descend upon Europe because, in your view, "we have to process their application to see if they are genuine asylum seekers".

Look how well that's turned out.

Most go missing and do not follow those rules.

Again, according to the EU, 80% of migrants are not refugees or genuine asylum seekers.

You better watch you don't pull a muscle with all the moving of the goal posts just to cover your dishonesty or ignorance. Do you want to take a while to figure out what your point is and get back to me?

Wibbs

Be right back wrote: »

I was close when it happened and the police reacted so quickly. Lots of security around the city.

Sadly tends to be the case the more multicultural a society becomes, which says much. Doubly so when those not within the mainstream culture feel, or actually are at war with it because of their culture. This is happening throughout the EU on the back of this idiotic politic. Well with the exception of those few who have either avoided it by happenstance(us until recently) or by design. EG compare and contrast the need for armed response units in Poland and Britain. How many grenade attacks kicked off in Warsaw compared to Malmo? How many concrete bollards surround potential targets in France, The UK, Sweden, Germany compared to Poland?

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

Sadly tends to be the case the more multicultural a society becomes, which says much.

Just to remind people, it was an immigrant who tackled the terrorist and got stabbed in the process.

Be right back

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Just to remind people, it was an immigrant who tackled the terrorist and got stabbed in the process.

And the person responsible for this, was born in Britain.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Just to remind people, it was an immigrant who tackled the terrorist and got stabbed in the process.

Polish I believe? And he wouldn't have had to if Britain had exercised more control over their immigration down the decades. And if we look where the hero who tackled the guy comes from, he won't see this, or grenade attacks, or large scale gang related stabbings, or honour killings, or upswings in rapes, or trucks used as killing machines back in his native country. I wonder why.... Check out the demographics of Poland and how their leaders have been quite clear about not wanting any sort of large number of immigrants from countries or cultures they deem incompatible with Poland's.

Be right back wrote: »

And the person responsible for this, was born in Britain.

So? Unlike some I don't consider them British. To paraphrase something that wasn't said by Wellington, but about him: Being born in a stable does not automatically make one a horse. I would include citizenship in this.

seamus

Wibbs wrote: »

So? Unlike some I don't consider them British.

Yeah, but you know there are some things where the existence of your opinion doesn't change the facts.

You know what the No true Scotsman fallacy is, you don't even have to look it up. Yet here you are revelling in it.

TwoMonthsOff

It doesnt matter a shìte what any of us thinks of their nationality. If they are targeting british civilians in the name of Islam then I highly doubt they consider themselves to be British.

Wibbs

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, but you know there are some things where the existence of your opinion doesn't change the facts.

I didn't state any fact beyond I don't consider them British. The fact is I don't.

You know what the No true Scotsman fallacy is, you don't even have to look it up. Yet here you are revelling in it.

Nope again. My point stands and it is demonstrable; European countries with less diversity have fewer such social problems.

Take the difference between Norway(recently voted one of the best places on the planet to live) and their neighbour Sweden. Unlike the latter Norway has gotten tough on immigration and is kicking them out. And crime dropped. Their prime minister has openly stated she wouldn't hire a woman wearing the full face muslim veil. They've also set up courses for immigrant men to teach them about treating women correctly and not sexually assaulting them or viewing them as whores. They're trying to make that mandatory. The fact they see the real need...

Though from that above article: a Muslim asylum seeker from the Horn of Africa, was shocked to see women in skimpy clothes drinking alcohol and kissing in public. Back home, he said, only prostitutes do that, and in locally made movies couples “only hug but never kiss.” Yeah that's a welcome set of cultural ideals alright... :rolleyes:

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

I didn't state any fact beyond I don't consider them British. The fact is I don't.

Yeah but your opinions and feelings don't change facts. The terrorist was British. The person who put his lie on the line to stop him was an immigrant. Those are the facts. But let's indulge a little. Why do you not consider somebody born in the UK to be British?

WrenBoy

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Yeah but your opinions and feelings don't change facts. The terrorist was British. The person who put his lie on the line to stop him was an immigrant. Those are the facts. But let's indulge a little. Why do you not consider somebody born in the UK to be British?

Something about waging holy war on the non-believer in allahs name and murdering random british people in the streets of London by knife, trucks and bombs ... doesn't sound like they are very british.

Slowyourrole

WrenBoy wrote: »

Something about waging holy war on the non-believer in allahs name and murdering random british people in the streets of London by knife, trucks and bombs ... doesn't sound like they are very british.

Like I said, feelings aren't really relevant to facts.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Like I said, feelings aren't really relevant to facts.

The "facts" are pieces of paper and an accident of birth and the complexity of "multiculturalism". Like I said being born in a stable does not automatically make one a horse and I would include citizenship in this. Throughout history and across cultures where treasonous acts in particular in support of an external antagonist are concerned any rights and privileges of citizenship were almost always revoked. And rightfully.

Slowyourrole

Wibbs wrote: »

The "facts" are pieces of paper and an accident of birth and the complexity of "multiculturalism". Like I said being born in a stable does not automatically make one a horse and I would include citizenship in this. Throughout history and across cultures where treasonous acts in particular in support of an external antagonist are concerned any rights and privileges of citizenship were almost always revoked. And rightfully.

You call it an accident of birth but as far as I can see his parents deliberately chose to settle in the UK legally. Doesn't appear to be any accident. How many generations of people born in a country would you require before accepting them as normal citizens?

WrenBoy

Slowyourrole wrote: »

You call it an accident of birth but as far as I can see his parents deliberately chose to settle in the UK legally. Doesn't appear to be any accident. How many generations of people born in a country would you require before accepting them as normal citizens?

For me when one genuinely buys into the culture and ethos of the society into which they are "integrating".
Attempting to purge the local population would not be integrating.

Be right back

He was born in Britain, I guess he would have attended main stream education but somewhere along the line, he became radicalized. He probably hated the British way of life but not enough to leave and live somewhere that agrees with his outlook on life. It's terrible that Jack and Saskia were murdered because of his views.

Lefty Bicek

Slowyourrole wrote: »

You call it an accident of birth but as far as I can see his parents deliberately chose to settle in the UK legally. Doesn't appear to be any accident. How many generations of people born in a country would you require before accepting them as normal citizens?

Actually, the present generation are vastly more sullen, menacing, disaffected, pandered to, and aggressively radical than the generations who have come before them.

Many of them have grown up in Britain, have never known anything but Britain, have never seen a fraction of a fraction of the hardship their parents and particularly grandparents tolerated in Britain in decades gone by.

And yet...they are feral, persecution complex scum. It's inexplicable.

Anyone who thinks that they are normal citizens, is delusional. They are the enemy within.

AlekSmart

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Actually, the present generation are vastly more sullen, menacing, disaffected, pandered to, and aggressively radical than the generations who have come before them.

Many of them have grown up in Britain, have never known anything but Britain, have never seen a fraction of a fraction of the hardship their parents and particularly grandparents tolerated in Britain in decades gone by.

And yet...they are feral, persecution complex scum. It's inexplicable.

Anyone who thinks that they are normal citizens, is delusional. They are the enemy within.

All as may be,however most posters here would'nt be too au fait with the realities of living in or around UK centres of such population groups.

It looks increasingly like Ireland will have to allow it's own such places of Cultural Diversity and Integration to develop and prosper before the reality intrudes.

Wibbs

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Actually, the present generation are vastly more sullen, menacing, disaffected, pandered to, and aggressively radical than the generations who have come before them.

Which tends to be the trajectory of immigrant groups. We see this in the UK, France, Germany etc. The first generation almost to a man and woman tend to work hard and try to start a new life in their new home. The second generation have less of a connection to their original "homeland" and feel more "local", but their daily experience tends towards knowing that people don't quite view them as local enough. This is generally based on skin colour. Because it quite simply marks people out more obviously. Second, or third generation Irish, French, or German in say the UK simply blend in and are more accepted. Further generations feel this more strongly and tend to want to connect, even overconnect with their background culture as a way of feeling like they belong to something. With Irish ex pats we can see this to varying degrees. You can see it in the US many generations in. The "wearing of the green", visting the old sod, getting into the diddly eye music all the way up to supporting the "struggle", even though they're so removed from it and understand it even less. Similar can be seen with Italian and Jewish Americans. And that's a land based and reliant on immigrants. Which celebrates that at least on the surface and mostly to to the pale of face.

And I can well understand this. If I were born into a Pakistani or Jamaican family in a mostly Pakistani or Jamaican neighbourhood, "British" on paper, but not quite "British" enough, unless I was a famous and rich athlete, entertainer or business type and even then I'd be suspicious of many "welcomes". I am quite sure I'd be tempted by any source that promised me belonging and pride in what I came from and who I was. I am not surprised at all that many young British Muslim men are sympathetic to the wider Muslim world and the ideological and military "sides" and conflicts. Like I say I would likely be the same in their shoes. I'm actually surprised there aren't more.

biko

At the current inquest there are some horror stories.

Here killer Usman Khan is sitting one char away from rehab volunteer Saskia Jones, 23.
He was there for the prisoner rehabilitation event.

He would in a while excuse himself, go to the bathroom and tape eight-inch kitchen knives to his hands, and then go on to stab Saskia and Mark to death.



Giving evidence this morning at the inquest into the deaths of Mr Merritt and Saskia Jones, Ms Rowbotham said she saw Khan “moving purposely” towards her with a knife in each hand.
“I looked around to my left, then I saw Usman standing, coming towards me with knives in his hands”, she said.

Ms Rowbotham told the hearing: “He left, it’s a little bit fuzzy. I remember the final stabs were in my neck.
“It felt like he thought they were the final stabs, as in they were intended to finish me, I guess, and also the attack.
“I was on the floor and closed my eyes, I sort of decided to play dead, just in case he came back again.
“I tried to slow down my breathing and blood flow as much as possible.”


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/woman-tells-london-bridge-inquest-she-played-dead-after-being-stabbed/ar-BB1fE5tw
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9461655/Families-Fishmongers-Hall-terror-attack-victims-attend-start-jury-inquest.html
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/fishmongers-e2-80-99-hall-stabbing-victim-e2-80-98played-dead-to-end-attack-e2-80-99/ar-BB1fDPdR

Be right back

I happened to be in the area at that time. It was quite scary but being in the hall must have been truly awful. Reading about the details of the attack is horrible.