Why aren't you a vegan!?

gormdubhgorm

Unearthly wrote: »

Watch out, We got ourselves a new visionary with such wisdom

IrishKev wrote: »

I'm fed up of the argument that 'we're not the problem' just because we're a small country. If every country takes that approach, come 2050 the world will be f*cked. People are very quick to blame China or India for their fossil fuel burning - yet will happily buy a t-shirt in Penney's or order something online from AliExpress and not give it a second thought. Don't get me wrong, I've done both myself - but finger pointing is not the answer.

That is the point I am trying to make a small country like Ireland as part of the problem when itself was ravaged by famine colonialism for centuries.

Now we say we are alright we can change.
Now middle class Ireland can take pretend to take the moral high ground while expecting underdeveloped parts of the world to do the same.
While at the same time having those goods manufacturer in the under developed world for consumption in Ireland!

It is all bolix really jumped up hyocrites these environmentalists are while they buy thier cheap imports and send thier latest tweet on thier latest smart phone made in India/China. I have no time for them at all.

People talking about veganism on a vegan sub-forum? I've never heard the likes.

That is not my point my point is the ideologically aggressive nature they have plus how vocal they are despite such a small percentage of the population.

2% of the population!

Other minority groups that size do not have thier own forum.

Mocho Joe Joe

Unearthly wrote: »

You would definitely need to be able to cook to avoid all the processed crap. Once you tackle that issue, there is huge variety

Yeah it's def something we'll go back to. If we didn't have kids we would happily have vegetarian burritos every night - we mastered those 🀣 but useless at cooking so would need to up our game!

Unearthly

Mocho Joe Joe wrote: »

Yeah it's def something we'll go back to. If we didn't have kids we would happily have vegetarian burritos every night - we mastered those 🀣 but useless at cooking so would need to up our game!

Very true when you have a family. Time wise it would be a struggle making several dinners.

gormdubhgorm

jimgoose wrote: »

I had a quick look there, they just seem to be chatting away about vegan/veggie matters. Could you point me to a specific case of where they are rounding on an innocent carnie who isn't deliberately gowling around in there in order to wind them up?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058029929

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057954470

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057912964

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057905933

Unearthly

wakka12 wrote: »

What are the health benefits?
I've heard conflicting reports on whether vegans and vegetarians live longer than meat eaters.

Study of 250,000 Australians
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/vegetarians-study-lower-risk-death
No significant differences in all-cause mortality
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html
This study found a significant difference.130,000 people over 30 years.They found every three per cent increase in calories from plant protein was found to reduce risk of death by 10 per cent.By contrast, raising the share of animal protein in one's diet by 10 per cent led to a two per cent higher risk of death from all causes.

Overall I think the health benefits of vegan and vegetarians diets are overstated. I think most of the purported benefits found in studies are a combination of the fact that those people generally live generally healthier lifestyles than the regular, meat eating population, and even more importantly how much more plants they eat than most people do as the lack of calories from meat is replaced by extra plants.

The thing with nutrition science is that it's so contradictory and some of them are very poorly done and then you have conflict of interest funding.

But vegan diets do lower cholesterol as they typically consume less saturated fat. Now there are studies out there that say cholesterol is not a concern with heart disease so again contradictory

IrishKev

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is the point I am trying to make a small country like Ireland as part of the problem when itself was ravaged by famine colonialism for centuries.

Now we say we are alright we can change.
Now middle class Ireland can take pretend to take the moral high ground while expecting underdeveloped parts of the world to do the same.
While at the same time having those goods manufacturer in the under developed world for consumption in Ireland!

It is all bolix really jumped up hyocrites these environmentalists are while they buy thier cheap imports and send thier latest tweet on thier latest smart phone made in India/China. I have no time for them at all.

That is not my point my point is the ideologically aggressive nature they have plus how vocal they are despite such a small percentage of the population.

2% of the population!

Other minority groups that size do not have thier own forum.

Veganism is literally about taking personal responsibility and making small personal changes in your life and your diet. Where have you ever seen a vegan say they 'expect underdeveloped parts of the world' to 'take the moral highground'?

Again, we are all hypocrites. Just because nobody's perfect doesn't mean you can't get better. Pair that with reducing your carbon footprint, being healthier, and save animal's lives along the way, there's no reason not to go vegan.

Also, this thread is about 90% non-vegans who are shouting very loudly about vegans who are apparently shouting very loudly. Take a flick through the pages and try to pick out a 'preachy vegan'.

jimgoose

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058029929

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057954470

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057912964

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057905933

Aside from a couple of spots featuring one particular individual who is obviously in there like a bull (see what I did there?? ) in a china shop, that's all perfectly reasonable discussion.

gormdubhgorm

IrishKev wrote: »

Veganism is literally about taking personal responsibility and making small personal changes in your life and your diet. Where have you ever seen a vegan say they 'expect underdeveloped parts of the world' to 'take the moral highground'?

Again, we are all hypocrites. Just because nobody's perfect doesn't mean you can't get better. Pair that with reducing your carbon footprint, being healthier, and save animal's lives along the way, there's no reason not to go vegan.

Also, this thread is about 90% non-vegans who are shouting very loudly about vegans who are apparently shouting very loudly. Take a flick through the pages and try to pick out a 'preachy vegan'.

First post I made about eating meat being natural and veganism unnatural got called a 'fallacy' by one who I assume is a preachy vegan.

Yet vegans have to search for supplements all the time!
How is that natural.

Plus those on a vegan diet suffer

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057872522

As I have said I have a relation who has developed sun allergies and she is a staunch vegan. I can see it causing more harm than good going against what your body craves to stay healthy.

gormdubhgorm

jimgoose wrote: »

Aside from a couple of spots featuring one particular individual who is obviously in there like a bull (see what I did there?? ) in a china shop, that's all perfectly reasonable discussion.

good one on the bull... links in china as well

My point is it is very ideological oh isnt it terrible that zyz?
It is NOT just discussion of food.

I assume there is a wide over lap in the environmental forum/feminism and vegans/vegetarians as well.
I am sure the mods could produce a Venn Diagram at this stage!

jimgoose

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

good one on the bull... links in china as well

My point is it is very ideological oh inst it terrible that zyz?
It is NOT just discussion of food.

I assume there is a wide over lap in the environmental forum/feminism and vegans/vegetarians as well.
I am sure the mods could produce a Venn Diagram at this stage!

The thing is, I agree with you on just about everything except the notion that the preachy, aggressive vegan is the commoner type. In my experience, they just tend to mind their own business and get on with it.

average_runner

IrishKev wrote: »

Veganism is literally about taking personal responsibility and making small personal changes in your life and your diet. Where have you ever seen a vegan say they 'expect underdeveloped parts of the world' to 'take the moral highground'?

Again, we are all hypocrites. Just because nobody's perfect doesn't mean you can't get better. Pair that with reducing your carbon footprint, being healthier, and save animal's lives along the way, there's no reason not to go vegan.

Also, this thread is about 90% non-vegans who are shouting very loudly about vegans who are apparently shouting very loudly. Take a flick through the pages and try to pick out a 'preachy vegan'.

Being vegan doesn't reduce your carbon print, actually it can increase it.
For us, we get all our veg from our allotment and then our meat is Irish. Not too much of a carbon print there

Unearthly

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

First post I made about eating meat being natural and veganism unnatural got called a 'fallacy' by one who I assume is a preachy vegan.
.

It's not preachy to point out a poor argument. Look it up on Google if you have time.

Anyway, Gozunda who in the past has been accused at being the biggest anti vegan poster on boards (unfair imo as I think he argues his points constructively) agreed with me.

IrishKev

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

First post I made about eating meat being natural and veganism unnatural got called a 'fallacy' by one who I assume is a preachy vegan.

Yet vegans have to search for supplements all the time!
How is that natural.

Plus those on a vegan diet suffer

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057872522

As I have said I have a relation who has developed sun allergies and she is a staunch vegan. I can see it causing more harm than good going against what your body craves to stay healthy.

That's a myth mate - vegans need just one supplement - Vitamin B12. The reason for this is it's found in soil which animals should get into their diet when eating grass etc. In reality, most animals are grain fed so don't get B12 in their diets, so are given B12 in supplements. So the B12 you get from meat is literally from supplements. Vegans just skip the middleman.

If you are convinced that vegans 'suffer' because of 1 thread from somebody you've never met, you're not giving it enough of a chance. Switching from a regular western diet to a vegan one isn't easy if you've never cooked a meal without meat or dairy. But once you are a little more informed on what to cook and how to cook it, it's easy, healthy and cheap.

The misinformation around the world is to be expected as it's still quite new to everybody. If people did some research on the health benefits I guarantee they would be surprised.

average_runner

IrishKev wrote: »

That's a myth mate - vegans need just one supplement - Vitamin B12. The reason for this is it's found in soil which animals should get into their diet when eating grass etc. In reality, most animals are grain fed so don't get B12 in their diets, so are given B12 in supplements. So the B12 you get from meat is literally from supplements. Vegans just skip the middleman.

If you are convinced that vegans 'suffer' because of 1 thread from somebody you've never met, you're not giving it enough of a chance. Switching from a regular western diet to a vegan one isn't easy if you've never cooked a meal without meat or dairy. But once you are a little more informed on what to cook and how to cook it, it's easy, healthy and cheap.

The misinformation around the world is to be expected as it's still quite new to everybody. If people did some research on the health benefits I guarantee they would be surprised.

Most foods in moderation is healthy. Nothing wrong with vegan, the same way nothing wrong eating meat.


No one should push their agenda on to anyone, especially to kids in school

gormdubhgorm

Unearthly wrote: »

It's not preachy to point out a poor argument. Look it up on Google if you have time.

Anyway, Gozunda who in the past has been accused at being the biggest anti vegan poster on boards (unfair imo as I think he argues his points constructively) agreed with me.

See again passive aggressive you are good at that it weakens your argument.

There is plenty of evidence to disprove your view maybe you should look those up?

Unearthly

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See again passive aggressive you are good at that it weakens your argument.

There is plenty of evidence to disprove your view maybe you should look those up?

I apologise if you think I am aggressive

IrishKev

average_runner wrote: »

Being vegan doesn't reduce your carbon print, actually it can increase it.
For us, we get all our veg from our allotment and then our meat is Irish. Not too much of a carbon print there

Not true. One beef burger takes 2500 litres of water to make.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/this-is-how-much-water-is-in-your-burger/

Also, grass fed cows actually produce 20% more methane than grain fed. This is offset by the more positive impact grazing has, however it's much of a muchness.

jimgoose

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See again passive aggressive you are good at that it weakens your argument.

There is plenty of evidence to disprove your view maybe you should look those up?

It is not passive aggression, or any other sort of aggression, to say that, in his opinion, your argument is poor. That's more of this "hit me now, an' de child in my arms!!" crapola. :pac:

jaja321

I think if I still lived in the US I might. Production practices there are particularly hideous. Maybe I'm in denial about practices in Ireland though?

I don't eat a huge amount of meat, but think I would still find it hard to give it up entirely. I'd live without milk, but don't know if I could ever give up cheese.

IrishKev

average_runner wrote: »

Most foods in moderation is healthy. Nothing wrong with vegan, the same way nothing wrong eating meat.


No one should push their agenda on to anyone, especially to kids in school

Not sure where you're coming from there. Discussion boards are for discussing - just because you don't agree with somebody that doesn't mean they're 'pushing their agenda' on you.

average_runner

IrishKev wrote: »

Not true. One beef burger takes 2500 litres of water to make.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/this-is-how-much-water-is-in-your-burger/

Also, grass fed cows actually produce 20% more methane than grain fed. This is offset by the more positive impact grazing has, however it's much of a muchness.

How much is the carbon print to get avocado's, bananas, oranges etc to Ireland?


Also .7 litre of water for a lettuce leaf is bull, maybe try growing veg in an allotment during the summer and in the greenhouse during the winter

gormdubhgorm

IrishKev wrote: »

That's a myth mate - vegans need just one supplement - Vitamin B12. The reason for this is it's found in soil which animals should get into their diet when eating grass etc. In reality, most animals are grain fed so don't get B12 in their diets, so are given B12 in supplements. So the B12 you get from meat is literally from supplements. Vegans just skip the middleman.

That is some cognitive dissonance there claim to be pro nature and natural - go vegan.
Avoid eating meat/eggs/dairy which is natural.
Then have to take a lab made supplement as result - unnatural.

That is not 'skipping the middle man' that is messing with the natural order of the food chain in nature.
And creating an artificial situation so you can leave natures food chain.

average_runner

IrishKev wrote: »

Not sure where you're coming from there. Discussion boards are for discussing - just because you don't agree with somebody that doesn't mean they're 'pushing their agenda' on you.

I don't mind the vegan diet, do it some days myself, but alot of the posts in the thread are hinting that vegan is good and meat diet isn't.

jimgoose

IrishKev wrote: »

That's a myth mate - vegans need just one supplement - Vitamin B12. The reason for this is it's found in soil which animals should get into their diet when eating grass etc. In reality, most animals are grain fed so don't get B12 in their diets, so are given B12 in supplements. So the B12 you get from meat is literally from supplements. Vegans just skip the middleman...

Cattle in Ireland are Wintered on maize, mangles and some fortified factory stuff. For most of the year, they graze and get plenty natural B12.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Are there any circumstances in which you would consume human meat?

I mean, imagine circumstances in which a human dies naturally, and its body is used for meat - would you be willing to eat the meat? In theory.

Of course, it's purely a hypothetical, but the idea is to tease out why we believe what we believe, and why we act out what we act out.

If animals are animals - and humans are animals - and we have no problem "eating animals", this question is probably worth asking.

I see from further on you actually want an answer to this one.

1: Pathogen source
2: Prion source

Outside of any other reason, these alone are enough.

Rodin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Cards on the table, I'm not a vegan.

That said, it's very hard to argue against the common vegan. After all, almost nobody argues that there is some positive benefit toward the infliction of suffering on animals.

Nobody would argue in favour of collecting dogs in the back of a truck, and sending them off for slaughter in some local abatoir. But that's precisely what happens with the other sentient animals.

The process is often brutal, but even if it were pain-free, the argument goes that animals shouldn't be killed in the same way we wouldn't recommend it for horses or dogs.

I can't really think of a valid argument against veganism. You'd think, then, that I would convert to veganism, but I haven't - and won't. It's a purely selfish endeavour, then, because I'm being hypocritical about how I would react if I saw dogs treated in the same way as farmed animals.

True, there are evolutionary reasons for eating meat. I think the argument now is that there are sufficient plant alternatives.

So, why aren't you a vegan?

Perhaps you have a valid position I, or others here, haven't thought of.

But thus far, I can't frame a case against it.

Dogs are smarter than cows.

jimgoose

Rodin wrote: »

Dogs are smarter than cows.

Pigs are smarter than dogs. Neither are smarter than me, because I have a shotgun.

IrishKev

average_runner wrote: »

How much is the carbon print to get avocado's, bananas, oranges etc to Ireland?


Also .7 litre of water for a lettuce leaf is bull, maybe try growing veg in an allotment during the summer and in the greenhouse during the winter

You're right, avocados take a lot of airmiles to get here. Buying in season, local, whole plant based foods is the best way to go.

You could be right about the lettuce leaf consumption, but there's no denying that beef is the big consumer of the world's resources in that graphic.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is some cognitive dissonance there claim to be pro nature and natural - go vegan.
Avoid eating meat/eggs/dairy which is natural.
Then have to take a lab made supplement as result - unnatural.

That is not 'skipping the middle man' that is messing with the natural order of the food chain in nature.
And creating an artificial situation so you can leave natures food chain.

We are so used so what the 'natural order of the food chain' is that anything else seems foreign to us.

What other species out there cooks and eats the eggs of another animal? Or drinks the milk of another animal? If I saw a horse sucking a cow's tit it would blow my mind.

As I said, animals are already taking supplements, which like you pointed out, are not made 'naturally'. So the source of which you get your B12 is pretty much irrelevant as they're both coming from the same place essentially.

Rodin

jimgoose wrote: »

Pigs are smarter than dogs. Neither are smarter than me, because I have a shotgun.

I don't see any snifferpigs or guidepigs on the go

jimgoose

Rodin wrote: »

I don't see any snifferpigs or guidepigs on the go

Not that it makes a blind bit of difference, but pigs are used for truffling in some parts of the world.