Burning the Poppy - A thread.

tipptom

tipptom wrote: »

Fair enough.

I think this is where this is where Irish people like me would have the biggest problem with the poppy and what it represents now.

I lived in England during the 80s and 90s and there was never any pressure to wear a poppy but this has been turned in to a lucrative industry now with a lot of money going to soldiers in present or near present wars that a lot of people would not agree with and is also used to subsidise these soldiers where the government refuse to fullfill their obligations to these soldiers despite sending them to these spurious "wars",so you could also say you are subsidising the British government.

I've already addressed the 80s and 90s and why remembrance has had a resurgence.

how much support is enough for a family that lost sons and daughters, or a soldier clearing IEDs from a school yard who loses their legs?

tipptom wrote: »

You say just don't go in to that pub in Bristol if you don't like what he is doing, but for me as an Irishman walking in to that pub for a pint and being told to leave unless I bought and displayed a poppy that the money will be used for the above is intimidation which I never saw back when I was there and this goes on now in workplaces and chidrens events everwhere.

I'm not sure why you would want to go to that pub in the first place to be honest, but as the landlord points out in every article, they would only ask why you weren't wearing one and you would be surprised by the amount of people who understand perfectly why an Irishman would not want to wear a poppy.

Last year, Ronin Curtis had a shamrock poppy on his shirt. The response was little more than curiosity and when explained what it represents, a simple shrug of the shoulders and "Fair enough".

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

Is that the Harry Patch who died in 2009?

Yes. Does when he said it make a difference? What would he say now that it has ramped up more since he said it.

Odhinn

partyguinness wrote: »

I think another aspect of this from the point of view of the British is that they have no 'National Day' of celebration like say St Patrick's Day, Bastille Day, 4th July that other countries have. I did pick this up from an article a few years ago.

(Maybe it's because the British did all the invading that gave 'Independence Day' to so many other countries...)

The British (or at least the powers that be) are latching on to Remembrance Day as a sort of quasi day of national celebration. There is definitely a drive to reclaim and promote Britishness or more specifically 'Englishness' and take it back from the far right EDL and hooligans.

As you see from all the pro-Brexit debate over here, references to WWI & II will always be brought into the equation within a few minutes. European commentators are left scratching their heads asking "Why does the UK bang on about the world wars so much? Move on."

In a lot of respects, Britain has never got over it and refuses to let go. This is in large part because they did not suffer like the civilians in mainland Europe. Look who else is so jingoistic...the US and guess what? They were not invaded either. Co-incidence?

There are no trenches or concentration camps in Kent.

God help us when their Queen dies...

...because it's when they appeared as a liberating force as opposed to the repressive colonial power they actually were.

tipptom

Aegir wrote: »

I've already addressed the 80s and 90s and why remembrance has had a resurgence.

how much support is enough for a family that lost sons and daughters, or a soldier clearing IEDs from a school yard who loses their legs?



I'm not sure why you would want to go to that pub in the first place to be honest, but as the landlord points out in every article, they would only ask why you weren't wearing one and you would be surprised by the amount of people who understand perfectly why an Irishman would not want to wear a poppy.

Last year, Ronin Curtis had a shamrock poppy on his shirt. The response was little more than curiosity and when explained what it represents, a simple shrug of the shoulders and "Fair enough".

Are you serious,so I walk in to a PUBLIC house for a PINT and you think its okay that someone can demand to know why you are not wearing something.

Sound like Nazi Germany to me.Ironic.

blueshade

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And a clique trying to censor it, while not actually saying anything relevant.

Do Kenyans and Iraqi's not count, would you prefer if we forgot about them?

How will you feel about the Kenyans when they pull a Zimbabwean style land grab on the tea plantations? There's a mad demand for money from the British government and threats to seize land if the demands aren't met. People wear a poppy as a mark of respect for those brave men who died fighting for democracy, so that people can air their various views on various topics without fear. Wear it, don't wear it, ultimately only real bigots and the headbangers still pissing and moaning about 800 years are the only people who give a **** about it in Ireland, but then again they've nothing else in their miserable lives.

Larbre34

Indeed. You will display this item of red and black on your person, or else be shunned and shamed. Where have I heard that before?

The weaponising of the poppy has escalated in the last 20 years but reached hysterical proportions since the brexit vote. Thanks to the rags of Fleet Street, it sits alongside ceramic bulldogs, union flag beach towels, the England FA crest and Transit vans daubed in the cross of St George as bulwark symbology against a perceived threat to a never-existent English ideal. Like the swastika of the Nazi regime its prior benign presence has been turned into a symbol of division and alienation.

I personally visit both the Garden of Remembrance and the War Memorial at Islandbridge at least once a year to pause, reflect and enjoy the peace myself, because they were all young Irish men looking for a better life for themselves and their kids, and there but for the Grace of God go all of us. I don't need a piece of plastic tat made in China to demonstrate it to other people.

Plumbthedepths

blueshade wrote: »

How will you feel about the Kenyans when they pull a Zimbabwean style land grab on the tea plantations? There's a mad demand for money from the British government and threats to seize land if the demands aren't met. People wear a poppy as a mark of respect for those brave men who died fighting for democracy, so that people can air their various views on various topics without fear. Wear it, don't wear it, ultimately only real bigots and the headbangers still pissing and moaning about 800 years are the only people who give a **** about it in Ireland, but then again they've nothing else in their miserable lives.

They fought for Empire and resources nothing got to do with democracy. You do know colonial occupation is not democracy right?
The ignorance is astounding.

blueshade

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

They fought for Empire and resources nothing got to do with democracy. You do know colonial occupation is not democracy right?
The ignorance is astounding.

You really ought to educate yourself, you really are plumbing new depths of ignorance.

blueshade

Larbre34 wrote: »

Indeed. You will display this item of red and black on your person, or else be shunned and shamed. Where have I heard that before?

The weaponising of the poppy has escalated in the last 20 years but reached hysterical proportions since the brexit vote. Thanks to the rags of Fleet Street, it sits alongside ceramic bulldogs, union flag beach towels, the England FA crest and Transit vans daubed in the cross of St George as bulwark symbology against a perceived threat to a never-existent English ideal. Like the swastika of the Nazi regime its prior benign presence has been turned into a symbol of division and alienation.

I personally visit both the Garden of Remembrance and the War Memorial at Islandbridge at least once a year to pause, reflect and enjoy the peace myself, because they were all young Irish men looking for a better life for themselves and their kids, and there but for the Grace of God go all of us. I don't need a piece of plastic tat made in China to demonstrate it to other people.

What on earth are you waffling about? I used to buy the Poppy in Ireland when there were some veterans selling them, but I would never have worn them because some absolute mouthbreather would have made a big deal out of it and attacked me. There seems to be an awful lot of gob****es still fighting this imaginary war.

FrancieBrady

blueshade wrote: »

How will you feel about the Kenyans when they pull a Zimbabwean style land grab on the tea plantations? There's a mad demand for money from the British government and threats to seize land if the demands aren't met. People wear a poppy as a mark of respect for those brave men who died fighting for democracy, so that people can air their various views on various topics without fear. Wear it, don't wear it, ultimately only real bigots and the headbangers still pissing and moaning about 800 years are the only people who give a **** about it in Ireland, but then again they've nothing else in their miserable lives.

Maybe if the British stopped pretending that WW1 was about 'democracy' they would be more humble and by consequence 'better Europeans'.

How people pretending to be interested in peace cannot see the absurdity of poppies tumbling out of a warplane, is frankly beyond me.
Sinking a warplane in a sea of poppies would be the appropriate symbolism it the interest is in peace.

blueshade

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe if the British stopped pretending that WW1 was about 'democracy' they would be more humble and by consequence 'better Europeans'.

How people pretending to be interested in peace cannot see the absurdity of poppies tumbling out of a warplane, is frankly beyond me.
Sinking a warplane in a sea of poppies would be the appropriate symbolism.

I'm out, there's a scary level of hate on this thread.

FrancieBrady

blueshade wrote: »

What on earth are you waffling about? I used to buy the Poppy in Ireland when there were some veterans selling them, but I would never have worn them because some absolute mouthbreather would have made a big deal out of it and attacked me. There seems to be an awful lot of gob****es still fighting this imaginary war.

If you google 'attack' and 'poppy' you will get results that show people being attacked for NOT wearing one.
Says a lot about some of the mythmaking you guys indulge in.

mobileforest

partyguinness wrote: »

I think another aspect of this from the point of view of the British is that they have no 'National Day' of celebration like say St Patrick's Day, Bastille Day, 4th July that other countries have. I did pick this up from an article a few years ago.

(Maybe it's because the British did all the invading that gave 'Independence Day' to so many other countries...)

The British (or at least the powers that be) are latching on to Remembrance Day as a sort of quasi day of national celebration. There is definitely a drive to reclaim and promote Britishness or more specifically 'Englishness' and take it back from the far right EDL and hooligans.

As you see from all the pro-Brexit debate over here, references to WWI & II will always be brought into the equation within a few minutes. European commentators are left scratching their heads asking "Why does the UK bang on about the world wars so much? Move on."

In a lot of respects, Britain has never got over it and refuses to let go. This is in large part because they did not suffer like the civilians in mainland Europe. Look who else is so jingoistic...the US and guess what? They were not invaded either. Co-incidence?

There are no trenches or concentration camps in Kent.

God help us when their Queen dies...

Britain doesn't need an independence day (who would they be celebrating "independence from? The Romans?"). As for a national day, this is tricky considering they consist of four nations but they have at least 3 observed and one in the works (St Andrews Day in Scotland, St Patricks in NI, St. David's Day in Wales, and there are movements to make St George's Day a holiday in England).

As for suffering in WWII, what about the blitz. Go to mass grave in Coventry and tell them they didn't suffer. Its true Germany got the worst of it but a good portion of the UK was bombed to pieces as well.

Im guessing some in the UK "bangs on" about WWI and WWII as they have a long history of banging on about wars on the continent. The English way of fighting in Europe has always been to gang up on whoever looks like they might soon be running the whole place. Actually, I think on some deep level in their national psyche especially among the more educated (ie rich), this explains their desire for Brexit. Its like that strategy while playing Risk, where you get Australia and then just attack whoever looks like they might get a hold of an other continent.

FrancieBrady

bludeshade wrote:

There seems to be an awful lot of gob****es still fighting this imaginary war.

blueshade wrote:

You really ought to educate yourself, you really are plumbing new depths of ignorance.

blueshade wrote:

some absolute mouthbreather

blueshade wrote:

ultimately only real bigots and the headbangers still pissing and moaning about 800 years are the only people who give a **** about it in Ireland, but then again they've nothing else in their miserable lives.

Poster who made the above 4 contributions in a TOTAL of 4 posts to the thread, leaves it because he feels 'hate'.

Honestly, you couldn't write it....except you fecking did! :D:D:D

tipptom

tipptom wrote: »

Are you serious,so I walk in to a PUBLIC house for a PINT and you think its okay that someone can demand to know why you are not wearing something.

Sound like Nazi Germany to me.Ironic.

You know a public house isn’t actually public, right?

You do? Good.

Fancy putting on an England jersey and joining me for a pint in the Players Lounge?

lawred2

blueshade wrote: »

I'm out, there's a scary level of hate on this thread.

What hate in particular bothered you in that post?

partyguinness

It would be easy to brush off the pub landlord in Bristol as just that a pub landlord.

FYI- In Ireland, a publican is a respected and noteworthy job title. Indeed, publicans especially in rural Ireland are respected pillars of the local community. It is not like that over here. In fact, it could not be more different. Pub landlords are rough as fcuk and with very shady pasts... and quite a few are downright gangsters.

I actually had a conversation today in my office with a taxi driver (2nd generation Pakistani) and he was commenting about Brexit and how he was speaking to Latvians and Polish in the local TK Maxx & Amazon distribution centres. Basically since Brexit, the canteen has divided. The'white' English basically do not sit next to the Eastern Europeans and basically it is open season on all sorts of discriminatory language and passive aggressive well, racism. Quite a few are making plans to move back (result I hear Brexiters shout).

I have been over here nearly 12 years and stuff that would never dream of saying or dream of even hearing is now ok- indeed commentating on emigrants or non natives is perfectly acceptable. Look at football.

This follows the same trajectory as Brexit and the annual Poppy Porn fest- it is no longer just about WWI & WWII soldiers. That would be fine. But is has been hijacked without a doubt to embelish and embolden English nationalism and anyone who says otherwise is very naive. Indeed you can hide behind it. Mr Pub Landlord can now act out his bigotery under the mask of patriotic fervour.

So while it is easy to brush off some knuckle dragging pub landlord as a blip but that is how matters snowball- next year it will be one hundred pubs and of course someone else will raise(lower) the bar to outdo the other with some outlandish display of nationalism.

partyguinness

mobileforest wrote: »

Britain doesn't need an independence day (who would they be celebrating "independence from? The Romans?"). As for a national day, this is tricky considering they consist of four nations but they have at least 3 observed and one in the works (St Andrews Day in Scotland, St Patricks in NI, St. David's Day in Wales, and there are movements to make St George's Day a holiday in England).

I get that they cannot have an independence day but you know that was not my point.

St George's Day is a dead horse. Nobody gives a **** about it. Whereas Poppy Day of the other hand....

mobileforest wrote: »

As for suffering in WWII, what about the blitz. Go to mass grave in Coventry and tell them they didn't suffer. Its true Germany got the worst of it but a good portion of the UK was bombed to pieces as well.

Of course they had the aerial bombings for a relatively brief period and many died (not just in Coventry) but Britain more than made up for it with interest over Germany (Dresden etc). Compared to mainland Europe UK civilians got off very very lightly as there was no invasion. Hitler was more interested in Russia and made a half hearted attempt with the aerial assault over a few months (at Goering's insistence). There was no mass executions, no death marches, no mass deportations to the gas chambers, no mass graves, no swarms of the SS torching villages and committing unimaginable horrors like all across Europe, no concentration camps, no mass starvation and ghettos etc. You get the picture.

As I said earlier, there were no trenches or concentration camps in Kent.

mobileforest wrote: »

Im guessing some in the UK "bangs on" about WWI and WWII as they have a long history of banging on about wars on the continent. The English way of fighting in Europe has always been to gang up on whoever looks like they might soon be running the whole place. Actually, I think on some deep level in their national psyche especially among the more educated (ie rich), this explains their desire for Brexit. Its like that strategy while playing Risk, where you get Australia and then just attack whoever looks like they might get a hold of an other continent.

I think the rich you referring to are the looney reactionary wing of the Tories. They want to return to a place where everyone knows their place and to reinforce the class system to their benefit. They hate and resent Europe because well, it is too equal too socialist. This faction do not like equality they cannot stand it. You are either regarded as beneath them (99.9 of the world) or above them (the US and China and Russia).

You see in their world, they (UK) should be calling the shots and Paddy should be downstairs.

The EU ideal that everyone has an equal say kills them inside. They detest the idea of sitting down with the likes of Ireland and say Germany as equals. The fact that Germany is a far richer more successfull country also kills them. That is not the way it is supposed to be "But sure we won the war. We should be the more successful nation. We should be on top."

The horror of the Nazis is seared into the psych of the Europeans hence the EU was born. The UK just don't get it because they did not suffer as much- by and large the British were detached from the real horrors of WWII and indeed WWI also and perhaps they are now just trying a little too hard to make up for it.

Plumbthedepths

blueshade wrote: »

You really ought to educate yourself, you really are plumbing new depths of ignorance.

Go on so chief educate me. ;-)

Plumbthedepths

blueshade wrote: »

I'm out, there's a scary level of hate on this thread.

No need to tell us , it's not an airport

Bishop of hope

partyguinness wrote: »

The EU ideal that everyone has an equal say kills them inside. They detest the idea of sitting down with the likes of Ireland and say Germany as equals. The fact that Germanh is a far richer more successfully country also kills them. That is not the way it is supposed to be "But sure we won the war. We should be the more successful nation. We should be on top."

The horror of the Nazis is seared into the psych of the Europeans hence the EU was born. The UK just don't get it because they did not suffer as much- by and large the British were detached from the real horrors of WWII and indeed WWI also.

I'd say they suffered lots in both wars, but I take your point.
As regards that I'd say the horrors the British were capable of inflicting on their conquered is burned into our psych also, hence the resentment of their poppy parade every year here.

Also just to ask, do you really think that the Germans would sit down and talk to us and talk to us as equals?
My impressions of that are that our Govt don't even think we are, always seem to bending the knee to Merkel and her cronies

mobileforest

partyguinness wrote: »

The EU ideal that everyone has an equal say kills them inside. They detest the idea of sitting down with the likes of Ireland and say Germany as equals. The fact that Germany is a far richer more successfull country also kills them. That is not the way it is supposed to be "But sure we won the war. We should be the more successful nation. We should be on top."

The horror of the Nazis is seared into the psych of the Europeans hence the EU was born. The UK just don't get it because they did not suffer as much- by and large the British were detached from the real horrors of WWII and indeed WWI also and perhaps they are now just trying a little too hard to make up for it.

The treatment of the PIGS during the financial crisis tells me France and Germany don't always like sitting down with the other EU nations as equals either. Britain the "we won WWII" was humbled a long time ago. Somewhere between the independence of India and the forced retreat from the Suez Canal thanks in part by threatened insolvency by the USA (also, the handing back of HK to China pretty much finished off any lingering sense of global supremacy). I think its the horrors of WWI and WWII that keeps some Brits out of a desire for a more cohesive EU. Pick any era, Philip II of Spain, Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler. Britain maintains its independence by keeping any one power from ruling all of Europe. I think this is the underlying, probably even subconscious, reason for Brexit among some of the Brexiters (yes, Tories). But anyways, this is way off topic so I'll stop here.

Letwin_Larry

well it's nice to see members coming together in mutual respect underlined by reconciliation and understanding.
and who said we were not a mature forward looking people. standing proud & erect in the face of ignorance and tribalism.
the barefaced cheek.:mad:

Plumbthedepths

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

well it's nice to see members coming together in mutual respect underlined by reconciliation and understanding.
and who said we were not a mature forward looking people. standing proud & erect in the face of ignorance and tribalism.
the barefaced cheek.:mad:

lol.

high_king

PRIDE should do something similar to the poppy in Ireland for all the victims and veterans of homophobia.

The Irish media and employers could make people here wear them as well, and exclude anyone that doesn't.

Good money spinner for LGBGT+ Equality and Rights funding.

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

maybe then, taking kids aside during rugby training and explaining why the second Sunday in November is remembrance Sunday is a good idea?

And what would one say if little Max responds with 'Why do you think it's a good idea to commemorate the perpetrators of British imperialism across the world, but not commemorate its victims?'

Potential-Monke

Aegir wrote: »

You know a public house isn’t actually public, right?

Not quite right there. Under the Public Order Act (Section 3(d)):

"(d) any premises or other place to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or by express or implied permission, or whether on payment or otherwise...".

Full definition here - The only time it's not a public place is when it's closed.

Anyway, I don't really understand the reason for wearing one, so I don't. I'm aware that there's some big hulabaloo about being Irish and wearing one, but never understood (or cared) why.

Del.Monte

Remembrance Day is over for another year - nothing to see here except the same old claptrap from the same old haters.

FrancieBrady

Del.Monte wrote: »

Remembrance Day is over for another year - nothing to see here except the same old claptrap from the same old haters.

Wasn't much of a change from the lovers either. Still refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem.

Plumbthedepths

Del.Monte wrote: »

Remembrance Day is over for another year - nothing to see here except the same old claptrap from the same old haters.

People who disagree with me= Haters.
Never gets old.