Burning the Poppy - A thread.

11-11-2019 5:46pm

Odhinn wrote: »

It's essentially been turned into a celebration of British militarism. And then of course there's the issue of where the money goes.

so don't wear one then.

Letwin_Larry · 11-11-2019 5:47pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Hey if you welcome the murder of civilians without ramifications to the killers involved that's your right, a disgusting position to have but then again it's obvious as to what your behaviour here is all about.
You should be happy the Reds won yesterday how sad is your life that you need to try and fill a void by trolling .

if you consider every opinion you do not agree with to be trolling that's your problem, and i would urge to open your mind. but perhaps you are a victim of your upbringing and/or your environment and sadly you cannot.

or would you rather to shut down people with whom you disagree? that's probably easier for you.

"It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

Odhinn · 11-11-2019 5:51pm

Aegir wrote: »

so don't wear one then.

I don't. I just find there to be a lack of honesty with regard to what it represents.

Plumbthedepths · 11-11-2019 5:51pm

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

if you consider every opinion you do not agree with to be trolling that's your problem, and i would urge to open your mind. but perhaps you are a victim of your upbringing and/or your environment and sadly you cannot.

or would you rather to shut down people with whom you disagree? that's probably easier for you.

"It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

An opinion that seeks to allow the killers of unarmed civilians go free is not one that deserves my respect. I 'm proud of my upbringing where value was placed on all life .
I have no problem with you sharing your opinion and I have no interest in shutting you down. However if you post abhorrent crap expect to get called out in it.
Do you think murdered individuals deserve no justice just because the killers wore a uniform?

FrancieBrady · 11-11-2019 5:53pm

Aegir wrote: »

it isn't a point, it is your opinion.

The Anti poppy fascists and the poppy fascists are as bad as each other, that has all gone too far and is a sympton of the modern social media age where everyone is constantly looking for something to get outraged about.

So you don't think there has been an alarming change in the use and promotion of the Poppy in the last number of years?

I think you are in denial mode.

partyguinness · 11-11-2019 5:57pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

An opinion that seeks to allow the killers of unarmed civilians go free is not one that deserves my respect. I 'm proud of my upbringing where value was placed on all life .
I have no problem with you sharing your opinion and I have no interest in shutting you down. However if you post abhorrent crap expect to get called out in it.
Do you think murdered individuals deserve no justice just because the killers wore a uniform?

There is an expression for it: British Exceptionalism or blatant hypocrisy or shifting the goalposts to suit.

In other words, we wave around the rules and normal conventions only when it suits us. Tear up the GFA, the European Convention on Human Rights, ignore judgments of the International Court of Justice, ignore UN resolutions etc etc.

The actions of the British government over the past few years only confirm what we have always known in these parts- the British simple cannot be trusted and they do not make for honest bedfellows. Full stop. That is and should be the default position in all dealings with the UK.

11-11-2019 5:57pm

Odhinn wrote: »

I don't. I just find there to be a lack of honesty with regard to what it represents.

what lack of honesty?

If you buy an RBL poppy you are giving money to the RBL, which supports ex service personnel and their families.

There is no secret.

On the other hand, the Poppy is a widely acknowledged symbol of remembrance, just as the corn flower is in France and the Lilly is in Ireland.

Again, no secret.

Letwin_Larry · 11-11-2019 5:58pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

An opinion that seeks to allow the killers of unarmed civilians go free is not one that deserves my respect. I 'm proud of my upbringing where value was placed on all life .
I have no problem with you sharing your opinion and I have no interest in shutting you down. However if you post abhorrent crap expect to get called out in it.
Do you think murdered individuals deserve no justice just because the killers wore a uniform?

the term murder is debatable. it was a conflict area and sadly people get killed in conflict areas. should we prosecute all soldiers of WW2? Vietnam? Iraq?

we cant just pick 'n choose, cos that aint justice imo.

"It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

Plumbthedepths · 11-11-2019 6:01pm

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

the term murder is debatable. it was a conflict area and sadly people get killed in conflict areas. should we prosecute all soldiers of WW2? Vietnam? Iraq?

we cant just pick 'n choose, cos that aint justice imo.

"It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

The gunning down of unarmed civilians is murder, it's also recognised as a war crime.
Uniformed murderers from the Vietnam and Iraqi conflict have been proscecuted.

11-11-2019 6:01pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you don't think there has been an alarming change in the use and promotion of the Poppy in the last number of years?

I think you are in denial mode.

there was a massive dip in remembrance around the turn of this century. Combined with the death of the last surviving soldiers from WWI, there was a conscious effort made to rekindle remembrance and ensure those killed were not forgotten.

what has gotten out of control, is people getting outraged for the sake of getting outraged. It has been turned in to a political symbol, from the fors and the againsts.

when that happens, the best thing to do is for the moderates to tell the extremists to go **** themselves and reclaim it.

partyguinness · 11-11-2019 6:02pm

Perhaps if the Irish did not watch so much UK TV and follow UK popular culture so it would not be noticed. Just saying.

partyguinness · 11-11-2019 6:05pm

Aegir wrote: »

People should not forget the mistakes of the past.

It's hard to forget what you do not know.

Plumbthedepths · 11-11-2019 6:08pm

partyguinness wrote: »

It's hard to forget what you do not know.

As the Apprentice programme recently proved, the candidates when seeking a pre WW11 Alice in Wonderland first edition didn't know the dates of the WW11. History doesn't seem to be a forte of the British education system. Yet I bet the idiots were wearing a poppy .

Odhinn · 11-11-2019 6:09pm

Aegir wrote: »

what lack of honesty? .

That its an act of remembrance thats been hijacked into a celebration of british militarism.

Aegir wrote: »

what lack of honesty?

If you buy an RBL poppy you are giving money to the RBL, which supports ex service personnel and their families.There is no secret.

Personnel that have been involved in colonial wars and repression everywhere from mayala, cyprus, aden, kenya, uganda, northern Ireland.....there is a complete failure to confront the colonial legacy.

11-11-2019 6:09pm

partyguinness wrote: »

It's hard to forget what you do not know.

maybe then, taking kids aside during rugby training and explaining why the second Sunday in November is remembrance Sunday is a good idea?

tipptom · 11-11-2019 6:11pm

Aegir wrote: »

it isn't a point, it is your opinion.

The Anti poppy fascists and the poppy fascists are as bad as each other, that has all gone too far and is a sympton of the modern social media age where everyone is constantly looking for something to get outraged about.

Do you think its possible that soldier F could be availing of the money from your poppy contributions?

FrancieBrady · 11-11-2019 6:12pm

Aegir wrote: »

there was a massive dip in remembrance around the turn of this century. Combined with the death of the last surviving soldiers from WWI, there was a conscious effort made to rekindle remembrance and ensure those killed were not forgotten.

what has gotten out of control, is people getting outraged for the sake of getting outraged. It has been turned in to a political symbol, from the fors and the againsts.

when that happens, the best thing to do is for the moderates to tell the extremists to go **** themselves and reclaim it.

The reason this is drawing fire is because it is getting more and more 'extreme' every year.

Shoot the messengers seems to be your solution. Seems to be your solution whenever any criticism of the UK is made.

11-11-2019 6:12pm

tipptom wrote: »

Do you think its possible that soldier F could be availing of the money from your poppy contributions?

yes, unfortunately.

11-11-2019 6:13pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The reason this is drawing fire is because it is getting more and more 'extreme' every year.

Shoot the messengers seems to be your solution. Seems to be your solution whenever any criticism of the UK is made.

not shoot the messenger, just point out the messenger is talking ****e to suit their own very very obvious point of view.

Letwin_Larry · 11-11-2019 6:17pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

As the Apprentice programme recently proved, the candidates when seeking a pre WW11 Alice in Wonderland first edition didn't know the dates of the WW11. History doesn't seem to be a forte of the British education system. Yet I bet the idiots were wearing a poppy .

that certainly was cringeworthy.
but i think we (some of us at least) in Ireland are far too obsessed with our history and the perceived wrongs done to us by the evil Brits.

we would be much happier if we learned to move on a bit. certain posters on here are like broken records.

there's one in particular (he knows who he is) that at the mere mention of the words border or DUP, he onto it like a flash (i swear he has an alarm on his PC!), prattling out the same tired, old diatribe.

"It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

partyguinness · 11-11-2019 6:20pm

Aegir wrote: »

maybe then, taking kids aside during rugby training and explaining why the second Sunday in November is remembrance Sunday is a good idea?

Sure, if that's what happened. There was nobody doing any explaining- all I could see was a bunch of kids in muddy rugby kit being corralled and made stand around. Completely over the top and unnecessary.

It was either last year or the year before same gig. Just a minutes silence at 11am. That was it- Jesus now it has evolved into a 15 min multiple wreath laying service by kids and live streaming from the BBC. Bloody hell. I am quite sure this was not unique.

Commemorating the war dead is one thing and perfectly acceptable but it has gone way beyond that over the past few years in the UK. When it revolves around the present day military then it becomes a completely different animal- it is propaganda and then all criticism no matter how slight is shouted down as 'unpatriotic' and the like. Quite frankly, it is akin to brain washing. That might seem a tad dramatic but with the heavy presence of the military with all the uniform and pomp- it is insidious and dangerous. If this was happening in communist Romania 30 years we would be tutting.

There are no questions asked.

Plumbthedepths · 11-11-2019 6:21pm

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

that certainly was cringeworthy.
but i think we (some of us at least) in Ireland are far too obsessed with our history and the perceived wrongs done to us by the evil Brits.

"It's akin to trolling considering this is an Irish discussion forum."

You should share your words of wisdom with the families of the victims who were murdered by British crown forces.
I'm sure they will agree with you.
Obvious troll is obvious.

11-11-2019 6:23pm

Odhinn wrote: »

That its an act of remembrance thats been hijacked into a celebration of british militarism.

It sin't though. Not at all.

Odhinn wrote: »

Personnel that have been involved in colonial wars and repression everywhere from mayala, cyprus, aden, kenya, uganda, northern Ireland.....there is a complete failure to confront the colonial legacy.

your favourite topic. I'm sure the people of Malaya, Cyprus etc are very touched by your concerns.

FrancieBrady · 11-11-2019 6:26pm

Aegir wrote: »

It sin't though. Not at all.

your favourite topic. I'm sure the people of Malaya, Cyprus etc are very touched by your concerns.

Letwin Larry, diminishing what happened to us.
Aegir diminishing what happened others.

Familiar backfoot, head in sand, and fingers in ears tactics

FrancieBrady · 11-11-2019 6:28pm

Aegir wrote: »

not shoot the messenger, just point out the messenger is talking ****e to suit their own very very obvious point of view.

Harry Patch and others like him are 'talking ****e?

that escalated away from respectful commemoration to 'I will have my commemoration and f**k the rest of you'...including those being commemorated. :rolleyes:

nuac · 11-11-2019 6:30pm

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

personally i think it say a lot about us as a country, as a mature democracy.

even the Japanese managed a few poppies, and they had 2 atomic bombs dropped on them!

then again the Black n Tans did shoot Mary Murphy's heifer in Ballygobackwards in 1921.

The Black and Tan were murdering thugs. Still well remembered in Ireland for all the wrong reasons,

tipptom · 11-11-2019 6:30pm

Aegir wrote: »

yes, unfortunately.

Fair enough.

I think this is where this is where Irish people like me would have the biggest problem with the poppy and what it represents now.

I lived in England during the 80s and 90s and there was never any pressure to wear a poppy but this has been turned in to a lucrative industry now with a lot of money going to soldiers in present or near present wars that a lot of people would not agree with and is also used to subsidise these soldiers where the government refuse to fullfill their obligations to these soldiers despite sending them to these spurious "wars",so you could also say you are subsidising the British government.

You say just don't go in to that pub in Bristol if you don't like what he is doing, but for me as an Irishman walking in to that pub for a pint and being told to leave unless I bought and displayed a poppy that the money will be used for the above is intimidation which I never saw back when I was there and this goes on now in workplaces and chidrens events everwhere.

Odhinn · 11-11-2019 6:35pm

Aegir wrote: »

It sin't though. Not at all.

It most certainly is.

Aegir wrote: »

your favourite topic. I'm sure the people of Malaya, Cyprus etc are very touched by your concerns.

They may well be. Certainly they and other victims find their concerns are not being engaged with in a spirit of reconciliation by the guilty party

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20302280

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48371388

https://www.scribd.com/document/94607680/David-Anderson-Huw-Bennett-Daniel-Branch-2006-A-Very-British-Massacre-History-Today-August-2006

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/may/17/military.iraq1

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/09/malaya-massacre-villagers-coverup

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2014/feb/11/britain-100-years-of-conflict

Edgware · 11-11-2019 6:35pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Harry Patch and others like him are 'talking ****e?

that escalated away from respectful commemoration to 'I will have my commemoration and f**k the rest of you'...including those being commemorated. :rolleyes:

Is that the Harry Patch who died in 2009?

partyguinness · 11-11-2019 6:35pm

I think another aspect of this from the point of view of the British is that they have no 'National Day' of celebration like say St Patrick's Day, Bastille Day, 4th July that other countries have. I did pick this up from an article a few years ago.

(Maybe it's because the British did all the invading that gave 'Independence Day' to so many other countries...)

The British (or at least the powers that be) are latching on to Remembrance Day as a sort of quasi day of national celebration. There is definitely a drive to reclaim and promote Britishness or more specifically 'Englishness' and take it back from the far right EDL and hooligans.

As you see from all the pro-Brexit debate over here, references to WWI & II will always be brought into the equation within a few minutes. European commentators are left scratching their heads asking "Why does the UK bang on about the world wars so much? Move on."

In a lot of respects, Britain has never got over it and refuses to let go. This is in large part because they did not suffer like the civilians in mainland Europe. Look who else is so jingoistic...the US and guess what? They were not invaded either. Co-incidence?

There are no trenches or concentration camps in Kent.

God help us when their Queen dies...

Burning the Poppy - A thread.

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