When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 5:30pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

The EU is pursuing "an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe," a goal enshrined in the EU treaties ratified by its member states. As you acknowledge, Sinn Fein oppose this project of closer integration and have consistently voted against every treaty designed to pursue it.

A party that stands opposed to the EU's core objective cannot be called "pro-EU." A grudging acceptance of the status quo but a determination to stymie further integration among member states is not "pro-EU."

Guy Verhofsadt today:

We need an overhaul of our Union so it can react to a changing world.

As I said Brexit has changed the game and SF stance may very well be the one that is taken.

You can indeed be in an organisation and be pro that organisation but want it to go in a different direction. Look at any organisation to see people and groups like this.

blackwhite · 06-11-2019 5:31pm

maccored wrote: »

You may point out where I was lying. I've already pointed out you need to read up on your history.

You seem to be the one who is pretty damn ignorant of history - and the English language by the sounds of things.

Does the word "always" have some special meaning that only you are privy to?

maccored wrote: »

SF have always been pro-EU in regards being part of the EU.

"Always" of course, excluding when they campaigned against joining the EC, or when they included leaving the EC in their election campaign literature

Something tells me maccored's version of "history" looks something like the below - dependent on whatever spin he's trying to push

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 5:42pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can indeed be in an organisation and be pro that organisation but want it to go in a different direction.

Sorry, but that's not how it works. "Ever closer union" has been a core objective since the formation of the EEC in 1957. Being "pro-EU" entails supporting that objective. Those who oppose further integration could do so under a variety of banners—but "pro-EU" is not one of them.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 6:01pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Sorry, but that's not how it works. "Ever closer union" has been a core objective since the formation of the EEC in 1957. Being "pro-EU" entails supporting that objective. Those who oppose further integration could do so under a variety of banners—but "pro-EU" is not one of them.

Ever closer union is the goal of some within the EU.

The change Brexit has likely brought is a fundamental look at where the EU is going. It is democratic enough to be able to do that and their many opinions on where it should go.

blanch152 · 06-11-2019 6:19pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ever closer union is the goal of some within the EU.

The change Brexit has likely brought is a fundamental look at where the EU is going. It is democratic enough to be able to do that and their many opinions on where it should go.

Nonsense.

Ever closer union is the goal of the EU.

You would be quick to tell us that uniting "all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland" is the goal of this country, because it is written in the Constitution, but somehow, even though ever closer union is part of the EU Treaty, it isn't the goal of the EU?

Usual doublespeak.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 6:28pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Nonsense.

Ever closer union is the goal of the EU.

You would be quick to tell us that uniting "all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland" is the goal of this country, because it is written in the Constitution, but somehow, even though ever closer union is part of the EU Treaty, it isn't the goal of the EU?

Usual doublespeak.

Not doublespeak, just paying attention to what is ACTUALLY happening NOW, not ranting about stuff that happened 20 or 30 years ago. You should try it sometime. Not everyone is in favour of 'ever closer union', that is a simple fact.

Fourteen years after the introduction of the euro, the German position on European policy began to converge with that of the British. The desire to keep the United Kingdom in the EU was one of the main reasons for Merkel’s commitment to intergovernmentalism. The chancellor’s change of course was also a signal to then French President François Hollande, who was elected in May 2012 and with whom no agreement had yet been reached on political union and the reform of the EU.
It was not by chance that Merkel referred in the interview to the example of the Netherlands. In June 2013, its Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans had declared in a letter to the Dutch Members of Parliament that the time of an “ever closer union” in every possible policy area had come to an end. In the future, the motto should be: “European where necessary, national where possible.”

Timmermans, who is now vice-president of the European Commission and the European Social Democrats’ Spitzenkandidat for the European elections, was saying what most European governments thought. If one interprets the formula of “ever closer union” in the sense of a federal deepening of the European Union, today there may still be some approval for that notion in Luxembourg and Belgium and in parts of the German public, but hardly anywhere else.

https://berlinpolicyjournal.com/no-ever-closer-union/

blanch152 · 06-11-2019 6:43pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

A little careless on my part. I did say leftwing though. I have no issue with this and don't recall seeing any xenophbia from SF in fairness to them.

The political horseshoe theory addresses the issue of how extreme left and extreme right political parties are closer to each other than to the centrist parties.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 7:04pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ever closer union is the goal of some within the EU.

Those who support the project of ever closer union are pro-EU.

According to Aleks Szczerbiak and Paul Taggart, in their 2008 book Opposing Europe?: The Comparative Party Politics of Euroscepticism, hard Euroscepticism "can be seen in parties ... whose policies towards the EU are tantamount to being opposed to the whole project of European integration as it is currently conceived."

Sinn Fein is demonstrably opposed to the project of European integration, which it has tried to block by campaigning for a "No" vote on every single European Treaty. They are not pro-EU. They would be best described as hard Eurosceptics.

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 7:07pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

My logic? No, it was you who dropped the "all politicians lie" line. It's your logic.

Mate you’ve seen me banging around these forums now often enough to know I put the boot into the political class in Ireland and England in general. It was a glib remark to someone who was seemingly outraged at the prospect of a lying politician - not a free pass to anyone bullsh*tting as long they’re left wing or whatever.

The logic line was in relation to SF’s position on EU was motivated by the same ethos UKIP had.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 7:13pm

FTA69 wrote: »

It was a glib remark to someone who was seemingly outraged at the prospect of a lying politician...

For the record, I'm not outraged at the prospect of a lying politician. I stated clearly that my issue with Sinn Fein is with its quasi-postmodern project of trying to deconstruct the very ideas of truth, falsity, and historical objectivity, so that truth is simply what they say it is, in any moment.

"Gerry Adams was never in the IRA."
"Sinn Fein have always been pro-EU."
"We have never been at war with Eastasia."

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 7:37pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Those who support the project of ever closer union are pro-EU.

They would be best described as hard Eurosceptics.

You are just trying to make words mean what you want them to mean.

They don't even feature in a list of Eurosceptic parties on this island much less Hard Eurosceptics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Eurosceptic_parties_in_Ireland

astrofool · 06-11-2019 8:47pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are just trying to make words mean what you want them to mean.

They don't even feature in a list of Eurosceptic parties on this island much less Hard Eurosceptics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Eurosceptic_parties_in_Ireland

Well, if Wikipedia says it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Euroscepticism in Ireland is traditionally found among small left-wing and Irish republican groups. The biggest of these have been Sinn Féin and Solidarity–People Before Profit,[6][7][8] who each have members in elected office. Sinn Féin long opposed European integration,[2] but now describes itself as "critical, but supportive, of the EU" and does not advocate withdrawal from the Union.[9][10] The Green Party have also shifted from being Eurosceptic to pro-EU.[2] More recently, small right-wing Eurosceptic parties have formed in Ireland, but they lack representation in any elected positions.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 8:52pm

astrofool wrote: »

Well, if Wikipedia says it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Did you miss this bit?

but now describes itself as "critical, but supportive, of the EU" and does not advocate withdrawal from the Union.

blanch152 · 06-11-2019 9:07pm

astrofool wrote: »

Well, if Wikipedia says it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

To be fair to Francie, Sinn Fein did start off in the 1970s as the Irish equivalent of UKIP when it comes to the EU, their position has shifted over the years. By the early 1990s, they would have been happiest as a Tory Brexiteer. Nowadays, they are most like a middle-of-the-road Tory from middle England, vaguely unhappy with EU, but not really sure why, and who could live with either Remain or Leave.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 9:16pm

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair to Francie, Sinn Fein did start off in the 1970s as the Irish equivalent of UKIP when it comes to the EU, their position has shifted over the years. By the early 1990s, they would have been happiest as a Tory Brexiteer. Nowadays, they are most like a middle-of-the-road Tory from middle England, vaguely unhappy with EU, but not really sure why, and who could live with either Remain or Leave.

Like others I follow in the EU, they seem to be clear about what they are unhappy with.
But I will let you research that yourself perhaps without the 'rabid' blinkers on.

The entire body politic were less than convinced about the EEC to begin with in Ireland and only embraced it because the UK went in and snookered us. Funny that it is us snookering them as they try to leave it.
Things evolve, and political parties evolve with them.

facehugger99 · 07-11-2019 11:14am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

"Gerry Adams was never in the IRA."
"Sinn Fein have always been pro-EU."
"We have never been at war with Eastasia."

Francie isn't a SF voter...

markodaly · 07-11-2019 12:27pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Gerry was never in the IRA.
Sinn Fein were never anti-EU.

It's amazing that there are people who actually believe the cult-like brainwashing that SF try to engage in.

100% nailed it there Permabear.

The SF acolytes are all about revisionism when it suits and endangers the aura and myth of SF/IRA.

markodaly · 07-11-2019 12:27pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's also amazing the amount of non-SF voters willing to spend hours of their spare time defending every SF policy position on social media.

Yes, the 'I dont vote for SF, but ill post-1000 times in a thread defending them...'
They fool no one.

FrancieBrady · 07-11-2019 12:43pm

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, the 'I dont vote for SF, but ill post-1000 times in a thread defending them...'
They fool no one.

Just like the other facts I actually backed up here, I can also back up the FACT that I haven't 'supported' or defended their stance on the EU on this very thread. . Try reading it.

What I have done, is what I usually do, is to defend against anti-republican, boogeymen under the bed, common or garden general bias and show that SF's policy and position on the EU is one that has evolved over decades to be now one that is in favour (has been from at least Mary Lou's campaign of 2005, IF you'd do some research) of Ireland, all of Ireland being a participating member at the heart of the EU.

astrofool · 07-11-2019 12:44pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like others I follow in the EU, they seem to be clear about what they are unhappy with.
But I will let you research that yourself perhaps without the 'rabid' blinkers on.

The entire body politic were less than convinced about the EEC to begin with in Ireland and only embraced it because the UK went in and snookered us. Funny that it is us snookering them as they try to leave it.
Things evolve, and political parties evolve with them.

I think the argument is that the evolution only occurred due to EU hysteria in Britain and the DUP and SF taking advantage of that rather than a change in philosophy suddenly after 30+ years of talking and acting the opposite way.

To put it more succinctly, "Things devolve, and Sinn Féin devolve with them".

FrancieBrady · 07-11-2019 12:51pm

astrofool wrote: »

I think the argument is that the evolution only occurred due to EU hysteria in Britain and the DUP and SF taking advantage of that rather than a change in philosophy suddenly after 30+ years of talking and acting the opposite way.

To put it more succinctly, "Things devolve, and Sinn Féin devolve with them".

That just doesn't stand up to scrutiny as shown earlier.

Again:

In 2004 Sinn Féin succeeded in getting its first MEPs elected to the European parliament, with victories in both Northern Ireland (Bairbre de Brún) and the Republic of Ireland (Mary Lou McDonald) alike. Standing on a platform of 'critical but constructive engagement' with Europe, the successful candidates were representatives of a party that has significantly modified its policy on Europe over the last three decades. At the time of its creation, Sinn Féin adopted a position of outright hostility to the EEC (which included a refusal to even take part in European elections), based upon a 'traditional nationalist' conception of what European integration meant. By the time of the 1984 European election, participation at the European level had become conceivable, yet this approach co-existed with an essentially unchanged Euro-scepticism throughout the remainder of the decade. It was only in the 1990s that the party's underlying attitude to Europe underwent significant change and began to more clearly resemble the policy as it stands today. The evolution of this policy, in itself noteworthy, also reveals much about the broader development of Sinn Féin, as the party has successfully negotiated its passage from the margins to the political mainstream.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30001944?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

You can further research this by looking up their campaign literature from these dates. I posted Mary Lou's from this period earlier in the thread.

If there are links to SF advocating withdrawal or a significantly different party policy on the EU through this period to the present day then I would be interested in seeing them.
'Perception' seems to be trumping the facts for some on here.

markodaly · 07-11-2019 1:17pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Just like the other facts

Do you know another fact, you are the largest contributor to this thread.
Indeed in almost all threads about SF or the Provos, you are the largest contributor with the highest post count in each thread...

Yet, you are not a SF supporter... :pac::pac::pac:

FrancieBrady · 07-11-2019 1:22pm

markodaly wrote: »

Do you know another fact, you are the largest contributor to this thread.
Indeed in almost all threads about SF or the Provos, you are the largest contributor with the highest post count in each thread...

Yet, you are not a SF supporter... :pac::pac::pac:

Did you read the thread yet, where a 'SF supporter' said that he didn't support SF's policy on the EU? A 'SF supporter you will not find supporting SF economic policy on this site, a 'SF supporter' who has never opened a thread supporting SF?

How's about you contribute something with facts and links to support those facts to the thread?

blanch152 · 07-11-2019 1:22pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What I have done, is what I usually do, is to defend against anti-republican, boogeymen under the bed, common or garden general bias

The problem with this is that you have admitted that you are reacting to certain posters, and not to what they are saying.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

and show that SF's policy and position on the EU is one that has evolved over decades to be now one that is in favour (has been from at least Mary Lou's campaign of 2005, IF you'd do some research) of Ireland, all of Ireland being a participating member at the heart of the EU.

None of the posters you claim to disagree with are arguing much differently to that. They may disagree with the extent to which Sinn Fein have changed position, when they did so, their reasons for doing so, and where exactly they have ended up, but all agree with the point that Sinn Fein have moved position on the EU issue, so I don't know why you keep claiming that posters are arguing against the principle that Sinn Fein have changed.

maccored wrote: »

SF have always been pro-EU in regards being part of the EU. They have though, exercised their democratic right to object to certain EU treaties. Maybe they're meant to like everything the EU puts forward? Is that what 'Pro EU' means?

Your real argument is with those who say that Sinn Fein have not changed position. Even you admit that Sinn Fein are not pro-EU in the way that you are pro-EU, and your greatest difference on this issue is with posters like maccored - a person you claimed is a member of Sinn Fein - and not with "anti-republican, boogeymen under the bed, common or garden general bias".

That you cannot see this exposes your more general position to critique.

blanch152 · 07-11-2019 1:23pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you read the thread yet, where a 'SF supporter' said that he didn't support SF's policy on the EU? A 'SF supporter you will not find supporting SF economic policy on this site, a 'SF supporter' who has never opened a thread supporting SF?

How's about you contribute something with facts and links to support those facts to the thread?

I agree with you, but why are you attacking posters like markodaly, when your real argument should be with the fourth post on this thread by maccored.

lawred2 · 07-11-2019 1:26pm

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, the 'I dont vote for SF, but ill post-1000 times in a thread defending them...'
They fool no one.

Oh yeah.. but you're a completely different contributor aren't you?

The only threads I've ever seen you posting in are SF/IRA related.

So how are you and your pals any different?

topper75 · 07-11-2019 1:27pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Horde: WE WANT THIS POLITICAL PARTY TO EVOLVE AND REFORM THEIR POSITIONS!

Political party evolves and reforms their position over 40 years.

The Horde: HYPOCRITES!

You guys truly are gas. :D

Reform = Doing a 180 on a core principle?
Gas indeed.

markodaly · 07-11-2019 1:48pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How's about you contribute something with facts and links to support those facts to the thread?

I did. I stated you are the largest contributor to this thread. A fact.

FrancieBrady · 07-11-2019 1:49pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The problem with this is that you have admitted that you are reacting to certain posters, and not to what they are saying.

None of the posters you claim to disagree with are arguing much differently to that. They may disagree with the extent to which Sinn Fein have changed position, when they did so, their reasons for doing so, and where exactly they have ended up, but all agree with the point that Sinn Fein have moved position on the EU issue, so I don't know why you keep claiming that posters are arguing against the principle that Sinn Fein have changed.

Your real argument is with those who say that Sinn Fein have not changed position. Even you admit that Sinn Fein are not pro-EU in the way that you are pro-EU, and your greatest difference on this issue is with posters like maccored - a person you claimed is a member of Sinn Fein - and not with "anti-republican, boogeymen under the bed, common or garden general bias".

That you cannot see this exposes your more general position to critique.

Earlier in the thread you posted that 'SF have been rabidly anti-EU for most of their existence'.

That was completely untrue as we have seen.

maccored made a point that could have been made better and when he clarified what he meant, I agree with what he said, that the SF of the 70's and early 80's is a different party to the one that emerged under Gerry Adams.
It's no coincidence that the other party that formed from the Split in 1969 - Official Sinn Fein/The Workers Party - is on that list of Eurosceptic party's I posted earlier.

FrancieBrady · 07-11-2019 1:55pm

markodaly wrote: »

I did. I stated you are the largest contributor to this thread. A fact.

Woo hoo!

*that is the only one.

When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

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