Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

Bass Reeves

Should SF step back from this ekwction. As there MP will not take there seats and use there votes in Westminster should they give the SDLP and the Alliance party a clear run. These votes could be crucial in the next Parliament and could swing many votes on Brexit. These seats could be a counter balance to the DUP.

In the interest of NI and the Irish people in general should the SF stand aside

markodaly

In my opinion, yes.

A vote for SF in Westminister Elections is utterly pointless.
Vote for the Alliance or the SDLP by all means.

liamtech

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Should SF step back from this ekwction. As there MP will not take there seats and use there votes in Westminster should they give the SDLP and the Alliance party a clear run. These votes could be crucial in the next Parliament and could swing many votes on Brexit. These seats could be a counter balance to the DUP.

In the interest of NI and the Irish people in general should the SF stand aside

Should they? Yes absolutely

Will they? More chance of finding Jimmy Hofa under my sofa (just checked he aint there)

No SF took a hammering in the Euro and local elections in ireland - at a time when an irish GE will occur within 6-8 months time, they need a win, and will run for as many Abstention seats as possible. They know ireland will be observing the UK election with interest, and they will want to demonstrate that they are still a force to be reckoned with

FrancieBrady

Special status for northern Ireland was a SF idea, initially rejected by FG.

They have played a blinder on Brexit in many ways, culminating in an Irish minister appearing on a BBC NI debate last night, standing side by side with SF and the Alliance and the SDLP lambasting the DUP.

Standing aside and allowing the Dublin to be seen as the protectors of the Irish identity in NI and moderate unionism will come to be seen as a masterstroke imo.

The UI project can no longer be seen as a meddlesome, badly timed SF idea, it is now mainstream.

SF will not, I would imagine, even contemplate taking their seats. Factions in NI are doing what the Tories are doing for Scottish independence ATM.

SF's attitude will be, let them at it.

collywobble7

Yes

Bass Reeves

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Special status for northern Ireland was a SF idea, initially rejected by FG.

They have played a blinder on Brexit in many ways, culminating in an Irish minister appearing on a BBC NI debate last night, standing side by side with SF and the Alliance and the SDLP lambasting the DUP.

Standing aside and allowing the Dublin to be seen as the protectors of the Irish identity in NI and moderate unionism will come to be seen as a masterstroke imo.

The UI project can no longer be seen as a meddlesome, badly timed SF idea, it is now mainstream.

SF will not, I would imagine, even contemplate taking their seats. Factions in NI are doing what the Tories are doing for Scottish independence ATM.

SF's attitude will be, let them at it.

As SF will not take there seats would it not be a playing a blinder to stand aside in this UK election and encourage it voters to support remain candidates.

There is s 50/50 chance we will also have an Irish GE. SF suffered in the EU and local elections because of there being no NI assembly and because it's absentionist MP's. I think it would get an election bounce in an Irish GE if it took this path.

In Scotland the SNP will take virtually all the Scottish seats. With maybe the UUP taking 3+5 seats off the DUP by tactical voting the Scottish Irish block could be hitting 60 votes. With the Liberals they could be kingmaker's on the next Parliament.

FrancieBrady

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As SF will not take there seats would it not be a playing a blinder to stand aside in this UK election and encourage it voters to support remain candidates.

There is s 50/50 chance we will also have an Irish GE. SF suffered in the EU and local elections because of there being no NI assembly and because it's absentionist MP's. I think it would get an election bounce in an Irish GE if it took this path.

In Scotland the SNP will take virtually all the Scottish seats. With maybe the UUP taking 3+5 seats off the DUP by tactical voting the Scottish Irish block could be hitting 60 votes. With the Liberals they could be kingmaker's on the next Parliament.

Where are you getting the bolded bit from? Looks like a bit of a self serving stretch to me. Any data on that?

I'd put SF's performance down to a change of leadership that has not given the bounce expected and a bit of arrogance at local level.

They will not interfere in the running of other countries...that is the central tenet of 'abstentionism' and it won't be put aside for some temporary advantage.
They would lose more than they gained imo, knowing a lot of their support base around the north and border areas.

L1011

"Should" is a pointless question because you know its not going to happen

It'd be useful if they basically didn't campaign in Belfast South to ensure that Pengelly doesn't get in by splitting the anti-DUP vote three ways badly like last time though.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They will not interfere in the running of other countries...that is the central tenet of 'abstentionism'

Abstentionism has been unwound layer by layer over the years - councils, Dáil, Stormont. It doesn't have a central tenet other than what it is decided to have at the time.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They have played a blinder on Brexit in many ways, culminating in an Irish minister appearing on a BBC NI debate last night, standing side by side with SF and the Alliance and the SDLP lambasting the DUP.

.

Erm, no, just no.

SF have been as bad as the DUP in many respects.

They have nothing for the NI Nationalist community in terms of Brexit. If there was an Irish Government minister on the BBC last night, I can assure it it was not so, by some SF master plan.

Why vote for them in this Election?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They will not interfere in the running of other countries...that is the central tenet of 'abstentionism' and it won't be put aside for some temporary advantage.
They would lose more than they gained imo, knowing a lot of their support base around the north and border areas.

So why stand for elections of these 'other' countries even though SF have accepted the GFA and NI as being part of the Union but that is another story.

It strikes me as SF yet again trying to be virtuous and pure when we need some pragmatism.

Dyr

Poster: Should SF do X?

People who cant stand SF: Yes, absolutely

FrancieBrady

L1011 wrote: »

"Should" is a pointless question because you know its not going to happen

It'd be useful if they basically didn't campaign in Belfast South to ensure that Pengelly doesn't get in by splitting the anti-DUP vote three ways badly like last time though.



Abstentionism has been unwound layer by layer over the years - councils, Dáil, Stormont. It doesn't have a central tenet other than what it is decided to have at the time.

I can only go on what they claim it to be. And Danny Morrison has written on it and claims that to be the reason for it. SF voters seem to concur.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

So why stand for elections of these 'other' countries even though SF have accepted the GFA and NI as being part of the Union but that is another story.

It strikes me as SF yet again trying to be virtuous and pure when we need some pragmatism.

Somebody who is partitionist needs Sinn Fein to be 'pragmatic' on his behalf, needs them to do something to get the outcome he wants?

Is that what you require of them? I think you will be sorely disappointed on that score.

rockatansky

One of the most pointless threads ever on boards.

Never going to happen, and rightly so.

But I do expect them to be absolutely crucified in both General Elections north and south. Their current leadership is weak.

James Brown

May as well ask should the Green party support Fracking.

FrancieBrady

rockatansky wrote: »

But I do expect them to be absolutely crucified in both General Elections north and south. Their current leadership is weak.

I think their vote will fall too and for the reason you state. Not seeing a crucifixion though.

It will be a fascinating election however it pans out.

Berserker

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They have played a blinder on Brexit in many ways.

How? The DUP and even the Irish TDs are getting plenty of air time in the UK. SF aren't even on the field of play. FGs stance on Brexit has stolen a lot of SF's thunder.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'd put SF's performance down to a change of leadership that has not given the bounce expected and a bit of arrogance at local level.

More down to the fact that people have grown tired of their brand of angry politics. The fact that they have no interest in getting into government in the RoI and just want to sit on the opposition bench, taking hefty salaries and expenses from the tax payer, isn't helping either. Their current leadership is incredibly weak. I'm shocked that they, Mary-Lou and MON, have been allowed to continue as leaders for this long.

Berserker

rockatansky wrote: »

But I do expect them to be absolutely crucified in both General Elections north and south. Their current leadership is weak.

Would be fantastic if people from NI started voting for other parties but I just can't see that happening. SF could sit on the sidelines for the next twenty years and people from a republican background will still vote for them.

FrancieBrady

Berserker wrote: »

How? The DUP and even the Irish TDs are getting plenty of air time in the UK. SF aren't even on the field of play. FGs stance on Brexit has stolen a lot of SF's thunder.

The DUP's 'airtime' is destroying them and showing the ordinary British person what an incredibly backward negative force they are.

Irish TD's are coming across as calm, informed and completley on top of their brief's and what they want for Ireland and for those who identify as Irish in the north.
FG's stance on Brexit is taken from SF's initial stance, FG were against special status for NI.

The point I was making is that SF knew they wouldn't be listened to in the UK so they stepped aside and the Irish Government filled the vacuum...because they had to.
You now have the Irish in the north with FG as their spokespeople.

Brilliant, for this island, whether it happened by accident or design.

More down to the fact that people have grown tired of their brand of angry politics. The fact that they have no interest in getting into government in the RoI and just want to sit on the opposition bench, taking hefty salaries and expenses from the tax payer, isn't helping either. Their current leadership is incredibly weak. I'm shocked that they, Mary-Lou and MON, have been allowed to continue as leaders for this long.

This 'grown tired' nonsense is just a self serving invention. All parties drop support from time to time.

We will see how much of a trend it is after a few more electoral cycles.

IAmTheReign

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The DUP's 'airtime' is destroying them and showing the ordinary British person what an incredibly backward negative force they are.

Irish TD's are coming across as calm, informed and completley on top of their brief's and what they want for Ireland and for those who identify as Irish in the north.
FG's stance on Brexit is taken from SF's initial stance, FG were against special status for NI.

The point I was making is that SF knew they wouldn't be listened to in the UK so they stepped aside and the Irish Government filled the vacuum...because they had to.
You now have the Irish in the north with FG as their spokespeople.

Brilliant, for this island, whether it happened by accident or design.



This 'grown tired' nonsense is just a self serving invention. All parties drop support from time to time.

We will see how much of a trend it is after a few more electoral cycles.

If you think SF standing aside and letting someone else speak for their electorate is brilliant I assume then you would support them doing exactly that in a GE?

FrancieBrady

IAmTheReign wrote: »

If you think SF standing aside and letting someone else speak for their electorate is brilliant I assume then you would support them doing exactly that in a GE?

The electorate have already said who they want to represent them. The SDLP have been cast aside for a reason - because they always settled for much less than what was required.

Would the NI electorate trust them again - I don't think so.

SF adopted a stand aside policy for a single event - Brexit. Because Brexit will affect the entire island.
There is no doubt that FG and FF have more or less passed muster on how they have played it.
FG dropped their objections to special status for NI and adopted what was recommended by the NI parties - SF and the SDLP.

As long as they did that, then Dublin was the best voice to be heard for us all here on this island.

BarryD2

It's not up to us in the Republic but personally I can't see any reason for voters up north to vote SF. No point whatsoever in electing politicians who won't represent you in the bodies they are elected to. Be better voting SDLP or Alliance.

facehugger99

They should but they won't.

The electorate however should be clever enough not to vote for them - this won't happen either though.

FrancieBrady

BarryD2 wrote: »

It's not up to us in the Republic but personally I can't see any reason for voters up north to vote SF. No point whatsoever in electing politicians who won't represent you in the bodies they are elected to. Be better voting SDLP or Alliance.

As the SF rep on the debate last night said: Where exactly has 'representation and even power in Westminster got the DUP when Britain decides to act in it's selfish interests?

The SF electorate obviously know/believe that seats in Westminster amount to very little in the scheme of things.

IAmTheReign

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The electorate have already said who they want to represent them. The SDLP have been cast aside for a reason - because they always settled for much less than what was required.

Would the NI electorate trust them again - I don't think so.

SF adopted a stand aside policy for a single event - Brexit. Because Brexit will affect the entire island.
There is no doubt that FG and FF have more or less passed muster on how they have played it.
FG dropped their objections to special status for NI and adopted what was recommended by the NI parties - SF and the SDLP.

As long as they did that, then Dublin was the best voice to be heard for us all here on this island.

I would argue that Dublin is the only voice for everyone on the island right now. With Stormont not sitting and SF boycotting Westminster SF standing aside to let FG speak for them is less a masterstroke of political planning and more to do with them being sidelined throughout the whole Brexit process.

Lets be real here, this GE will be fought over Brexit. It is still the biggest issue in UK (and Irish) politics. It was okay for them to stand aside and let someone else negotiate for NI for the last 3 years, why is it different when an election is called over the issue?

What exactly are SF going to say when they're out canvassing and they're asked about Brexit? We're against it, but we'd rather let someone else fight it for us?

We all know they won't stand aside and we all know it doesn't really matter what they tell their voters. The same people who voted for them at the last election will vote for them again this election. That doesn't change the fact that they're doing nothing to help the very people who voted for them.

jimwallace197

Got a call off Dessie Ellis last week, three times he mentioned he was a deputy in the space of 30 seconds, god we elect some utter gob****es in this country.

Dyr

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Got a call off Dessie Ellis last week, three times he mentioned he was a deputy in the space of 30 seconds, god we elect some utter gob****es in this country.

Did he mention the Average industrial wage?

Dessie wouldn't be the sharpest tool in the box

FrancieBrady

IAmTheReign wrote: »

I would argue that Dublin is the only voice for everyone on the island right now. With Stormont not sitting and SF boycotting Westminster SF standing aside to let FG speak for them is less a masterstroke of political planning and more to do with them being sidelined throughout the whole Brexit process.

Lets be real here, this GE will be fought over Brexit. It is still the biggest issue in UK (and Irish) politics. It was okay for them to stand aside and let someone else negotiate for NI for the last 3 years, why is it different when an election is called over the issue?

What exactly are SF going to say when they're out canvassing and they're asked about Brexit? We're against it, but we'd rather let someone else fight it for us?

We all know they won't stand aside and we all know it doesn't really matter what they tell their voters. The same people who voted for them at the last election will vote for them again this election. That doesn't change the fact that they're doing nothing to help the very people who voted for them.

That will never change the profound reality of where people are placing their votes.

Carry on stereotyping that vote as stupid, ill informed etc etc.

I don't think SF will be changing a policy of a 100 years just because some in the south are getting uneasy that the British are about to shaft us again.

Whoever you give the credit to for it, the fact remains that FG & FF have been forced to come off certain fences their less than wholehearted, lip serviced republican ideals have allowed them to sit on for a long long time.

That's a good day for us all in the Brexit context and probably in general.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Special status for northern Ireland was a SF idea, initially rejected by FG.

They have played a blinder on Brexit in many ways, culminating in an Irish minister appearing on a BBC NI debate last night, standing side by side with SF and the Alliance and the SDLP lambasting the DUP.

Standing aside and allowing the Dublin to be seen as the protectors of the Irish identity in NI and moderate unionism will come to be seen as a masterstroke imo.

The UI project can no longer be seen as a meddlesome, badly timed SF idea, it is now mainstream.

SF will not, I would imagine, even contemplate taking their seats. Factions in NI are doing what the Tories are doing for Scottish independence ATM.

SF's attitude will be, let them at it.

Sinn Fein claiming any credit for Ireland's success in Brexit negotiations is a bit like John Terry turning up dressed in full kit for a medal presentation at a match he didn't take part in.

Let there be no mistake, this Brexit deal is bad for Ireland. Any Brexit is bad for Ireland. Yes, if you look through the purely selfish prism of a future united Ireland, it is possible that this particular form of Brexit advances that objective a little further, however, if you are in anyway concerned about the wellbeing of all the people of this island, you know that this Brexit deal is a very bad thing.

Turning back to the election, it will be interesting to watch and see. We have been repeatedly told that there is a demographic inevitability about a united Ireland. Will Sinn Fein increase their vote in line with that?

L1011

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think SF will be changing a policy of a 100 years

A policy they changed in 1955, 1982, 1983, 1985 and 1986 (ROI Councils, Stormont, European Parliament, NI Councils, Dáil).

It is not some precious set-in-stone element of the party if its been changed 5 times already!

FrancieBrady

L1011 wrote: »

A policy they changed in 1955, 1982, 1983, 1985 and 1986 (ROI Councils, Stormont, European Parliament, NI Councils, Dáil).

It is not some precious set-in-stone element of the party if its been changed 5 times already!

With regard to Westminster, they say it is. And their supporters support and elect them on that basis.

Not much more to be said on that.