Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

GNWoodd

I see a challenge to the export of calves was for mention in the High Court today . Adjourned until October . Basis for the application seems to have been the length of time between feedings and the lack of record keeping etc

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355273#Comment_119355273

This will not be subs. Over in the UK one dairy already has insisted on a no calf slaughter policy from its milk suppliers. It's a two strikes and you are out. It up to the dairy farmer to arrange that there calves are carried to an age over 12 months I think.

You cannot offload to another farmer who has high mortality or carries calves straight to a slaughter house. So it's a cost Dairy farmers must factor in. This in turn will focus the dairy farmer on beef breeding.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354988#Comment_119354988

Feeding meal at grass need not be a chore. It's about organisation. I just use a trailer behind the Rav. After that as I have a paddock system I set the troughs inside or outside a gap. If inside I put up a bit of string before filling troughs.

I see many lads with Continental cattle feeding 5+kgs to them on grass to maximize potential. I am finishing 60 ISH cattle off 24 HA in area aid and that is stretching it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356861#Comment_119356861

I would rather spend money on other improvements than meal.

To me the biggest cost to a beef farmer is labour. That’s why I dread feeding meal and silage.

If you can get a margin with that system while making good use of your land and having the 60 ready at the same time then it’s a good system. Hard to make a profit buying quality stock and finishing them. Freisians can turn a profit but you need to keep inputs down.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357019#Comment_119357019

It's all very well to say that. However the calves exist they are a by-product of the dairy industry just like all the other calves that dairy cows have.

I do keep inputs low. This is the best way of maximising profit. Feeding meal at grass takes 15-30 minutes per day. Depending on where on the farm the finishing bunch is and whether they are fed inside or outside the paddock.

Very hard to have sixty cattle ready at the same time when you buy stores. You would have to buy a specific type and a specific animal. That takes time as we well. To not feed meal would mean the lighter type fries I buy would go over 30 months. I would lose 12cQA on O & O- cattle.

In five years time there could be the equivalent of 200 k more of them if shipping is stopped. I have seen nothing to conclude that sexed semen will be a game changer in the short term. even if it dose unless dairy farmers all use better quality bulls we may be no better off.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357229#Comment_119357229

Sure they are on about a 30% cut

If there are less dairy calves maybe the beef prices stays over €4.50.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357789#Comment_119357789

There will not be less dairy calves. The dairy herd is unlikely to reduce in size. The same number of calves will be born with sexed semen. Just more of them will not be Friesians. However it could be a doubled edged sword. It could increase JE breeding in the dairy herd. The temptation to use easier calving bulls could increase with smaller cows. You could end up with a lower quality calf overall.

What would be worse is that Friesian at present have an export market for veal. There is no indication that we could export large number of AA and HE calves. As well the AA bonus could come under pressure and the HE one definitely would.

As less calves would be exported the amount of cattle going through the system could increase exponentially

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357976#Comment_119357976

They want to reduce emissions in agri by 30 %

A good way of doing that is getting stock away at 24 months

Fellas milking cows aren’t stupid. They won’t increase their herds exponentially to eat there own market and only end up paying more tax

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358323#Comment_119358323

I did not say the herd would increase ( even though it is) I said that there is a developed market for Friesian call es for veal. There is no such market for AA and HE calves. If Sexed semen reduces the number of fair bulls it will mean more AA and HE calves mainly. There is. Ot a huge export demand for them.

The value of the calf at present is ignored in a lot of the Irish dairy system. Sexed semen may actually see a decline in AA nd HE calf quality if dairy farmers see JE breeding again as a viable option.

Sexed semen may actually see more Calves remain in the country even if export markets remain as there is not the same demand for HE and AA calves by exporters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358379#Comment_119358379

Well I’d say we can agree on one thing a fellow doing calf to beef needs a bit quality in the calf to make a margin.

There is a good demand actually for aa heifers for export

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358416#Comment_119358416

He needs a management system that extracts the most benefit from a particular animal. Friesian have certain advantages it's maximising that advantage that turns a profit.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358323#Comment_119358323

Explain how getting animals away at 24 months is a good way of reducing emissions....

I'd nearly think it would increase emissions

24 months = more intensive production, more heads for less money and more inputs?

Would extensive production..... fattened off grass at older ages and less inputs not reduce emissions?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358777#Comment_119358777

6 months less methane

Thats 24 months on average. Sure heifers could get away at 21 months easy

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358777#Comment_119358777

I could be wrong but I think the theory is that the less time the animal is on the planet, the less emissions it will produce.

Unless I'm missing something (and I usually do!), this is only half the equation coz as you point out, finishing earlier means more meal feeding which has its own emissions footprint, ever before you get to the soya imports from across the Atlantic. This might still mean lower emissions but without the figures to back it up, it's easy for Éamon Ryan and friends to dismiss it as a serious option.

Re extensive production: that might lower emissions, but it would also lower production overall. While farmers might be happy with this if it increased price (lower supply = higher price?), the Govt and others who benefit from exports do not want to lower production, despite all the talk of reducing the national herd to meet climate targets. Lower production = lower tax take. So I couldn't see extensive production being encouraged, beyond the token organic schemes that allow the Govt the best of both worlds. They are seen to be doing something without really impacting their bottom line.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358790#Comment_119358790

Very simplistic imo

If I can get them away earlier I just carry more items on the production line and cycle them quicker....it just increases animal turnover

Then add the inputs.....not to mention I find a lot of the dairy calves down this neck of the woods unsuitable for beef without a hell of a lot of those inputs.

I mean you were saying in previous post dairy men not stupid enough to increase herd exponentially to eat their market.......it looks like the beef lads are being pushed into increasing turnover via age limits

I'd be very very dubious of the direction this age limits thing is going.....its not in the primary producers interests at all afaics

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358954#Comment_119358954

Sure the fellas doing cattle at 28 to 30 months have cattle finishing at a time when the grass quality is seriously dipping.

Added to that the meal bin.

Fresh grass is the answer. If fellas had fresh grass ahead of the stock they’d get away sooner.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359017#Comment_119359017

If everyone at that isn't it just glut making when the fresh grass is tailing off.....

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359017#Comment_119359017

Not necessarily the truth. In the Beef price thread you said costs had gone up by a euro/ kg after I said 50c/kg.

I revisited my system and its slightly less than 50 c/ kg. Ration increased by about 110/ ton it's costing me an extra 19-22/ head. Fertlizer is costing me an extra 65/ head. Plastic 4.5/ head. Contractors is about 27-30/ head. Allow miscellaneous other costs to have risen by 25-30/ head which is unlikely that gives a my overall increase to be about 140-145/ head or about 44c/ kg if I only average 330 kgs DW per animal.

Fresh grass costs money as well

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359286#Comment_119359286

What about your margin? Inflation running at 10%. That’s the other 50 cent

Bass Reeves

10% on to my margin would be 25-30 euro/ head or less than Han 10c/kg. I expect my margin to increase by that as well

Winter finishing and higher cost systems are gone up by a euro/kg so I expect to receive increase it as higher cost system will be competing with me at the ringside.

Any it was costs not margin we were talking about.

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359017#Comment_119359017

What are you talking about. Most beef cattle turn 30 months in Aug/Sept. Your 21-24 month olds are hanging Nov-March. Far more thrive in grass April-July than Sept-Nov. You'll be killing nice handy cattle. I could have killed HE bullocks off grass in early Dec, they would have been ~270kg DW - they would have struggled for FS so would have needed at least 100kg ration. 4.20 base at the time, so lets say I could have got €1,215 inc bonuses. I housed them for 3.5 months on silage only. Out on grass since paddys day and got 100kg of nuts over last 5 weeks. Averaged 385kg DW last week at 4.90 base - €2,050. Extra cost about €220.

Its not about 'getting them away'. Lower age limits will be another death nail to beef farmers. Those animals need to be replaced so higher turnover - marts fees, haulage, ration, factory fees all increase. Methane emissions will be the same per KG of beef - its not like they stop growing at 24 months, compensatory growth on a 2YO is serious and its a waste not to use it. Its about putting on the cheapest KG's you can. You are spouting nonsense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359801#Comment_119359801

What age were your bullocks?

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359852#Comment_119359852

29 months

cute geoge

killing cattle under 300 kg d/w is a dead duck .Just let them there no matter what age they are

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359856#Comment_119359856

Got a 25 month old Angus away in May and he made over 2 k with no meal

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359867#Comment_119359867

Will you give over your 'got away'. Like it's some kind of race. You had a better animal starting out. Second cut done here with 2 weeks, all animals moved to fresh grass every 2-3 days all summer. Grass based system too. I don't look for the animal that can be 'got away' early as they are expensive to buy and I've plenty cheap summer grass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359952#Comment_119359952

Ok. How much does the cheap grass cost a day?

It is a race. My base was 30 cent higher than yours.

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359971#Comment_119359971

Fair enough that is an incentive for an early summer finish, tbh I should have left some go sooner but thought prices would hold this year like they did last. But no matter how good you are you are leaving money behind killing most dairy beef before 27-30 months as most are born in feb/march. That was obviously a super animal but my cattle more closely represent the average dairy beef. I buy yearlings in April and vast majority of 14 month old dairy beef is under 350kg. How/why would you kill these under 24 months in nov-feb. The methane argument is moot and should not be used to justify younger limits

Base price

I see the first legal challenge on suck calf exports is been taken in the High Court. If the DAFM information that they got through freedom of information is correct it is surely the end of calf exports.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/unweaned-calf-exports-the-focus-of-high-court-challenge-against-minister-and-state/

farmertipp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119368339#Comment_119368339

you would wonder what some of these do for a living.