Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089075#Comment_119089075

Exactly the point I’ve been making here the last few days. With milk at 50c the dairy farmer is right to be making sure to have the least amount of stress on the cow calving and make sure he’s getting milk in the tank as quickly as possible after calving. If the small calf that achieves this has to be given away for nothing afterwards then so be it, the milk in the tank is more than making up for it.

For another way of looking at it, if milk yield by the cow and calf price is viewed as a single unit to the dairy man, is he better with a 10,000 litre cow with a runt of a calf that has to be given away for nothing or a 5,000 litre cow with a big lump of a whitehead that makes €300 at 2 weeks old but numerous calving jacks left around the yard and the vet a regular visitor?

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089456#Comment_119089456

Spectacularly missing the point that any animal that has to be given away for nothing ( especially being produced in large numbers ) is a given for animal welfare issues. But carry on it’s your industry .

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089456#Comment_119089456

The economics are slightly different. The bull influences the calf as much as the mother. I was discussing this last night with a neighbor. He said I was one of the few that did not give out about Friesian crosses. I said I did not like Jex but most FRx are fairly ok. But I am buying as a store.

It's down more to effect a fairly decent bull will have accross your herd. Will it set back 20% of your cows. Will it effect more cows and drop there production by 100 litres.

You then have to balance the effect on the cow by the extra value of the calf. As well we are definitely looking at calf slaughter restrictions and no calf movement before 28 days

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089524#Comment_119089524

No I’m not missing any point. The point you’re missing is the point I made about viewing the income from the cow and calf as a unit together. K.G. and Ginger22 have already made very similar points also and both are dairy men I assume from reading other posts of theirs here.

The small calf is allowing for easier calving, reduced stress on the cow, reduced workload at calving time, reduced vet bills etc. All of them things lead to reducing costs and more milk in the tank. The calf may then have to be sold for €50 or less but the payment is already there in cost reduction and in the milk tank.

The bigger calf that the beef man will pay well for is going to lead to more stress on cow, man, vet etc. This will result in higher costs, higher workload, higher fatalities and problems etc along with a reduction in the milk supplied. The calf may sell for €300 but I’d be reasonably confident the man in the first scenario will be better off financially at the end of the year.

Animal welfare is a completely different aspect and a poor farmer will be a poor farmer, a lazy farmer a lazy farmer or a messer will always be a messer no matter what money is involved and I’d be strongly in favour of clamping down on farmers like that from all livestock enterprises no matter what money is being made or lost on the farm.

patsy_mccabe

The no movement before 28 days will be a great thing from the buyers point of view. Calves will be some bit grown and showing their true potential by then. Also any effects from poor feeding of colostrum will have shown in poor health by then.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089671#Comment_119089671

You are arguing in the extreme. Nobody is asking you to produce a calf that may make 300 euros , and cause any cow any undue bother .

Just stop producing a calf that is worthless or almost worthless .

The narrative about cost apportioned to cow / calf unit and cost reduction is not understandable by the person that matters the most - the person taking the milk off the shelf .

Mooooo

The value of the calf is totally dependent on supply and the market at the time. Had black and white calves of fleckxfr 700 kgs cows make less than 70 euro, because bandon in March is flush with calves. Add in boats not going for whatever reason and aa/ he etc all make poor money when numbers are up.

At the end of the day for a return beef has to be got put of the country as once the factories hit their numbers the cut away to fcuk

ginger22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089833#Comment_119089833

We have never used Jersey bulls here, Always big Holstein and Brown Swiss, Keep all calves for at least 4 weeks, well fed in good environment yet they have all been sold at a loss this Spring when taking account of milk drank, bedding, labour. As regards animal welfare all calves are well treated, We even use all polled bulls so no need to dehorn. Your argument about the consumer is irrevelant because the noisy animal welfare crowd will not drink milk regardless of how calves are treated.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089990#Comment_119089990

Same here. Gave away great calves for a pittance in the peak. Sold one the other day at 15 days for 250 euro. It's gas that lads can't make money out of a calf at 20 euro but they're mad for an inferior calf now and can pay over 10 times the price.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089833#Comment_119089833

Yes i agree I’ve given the extremes of the argument and I’m sure there’s a happy medium in there but you can now see what my point was. It’s then up to every dairy farmer to decide for themselves where they want to be on that scale.

You point about the person taking the milk off the shelf is completely irrelevant to anything being discussed on this thread. The consumer doesn’t know what farm the milk came from or how much that farm got for their calves, and 99% wouldn’t even want to know if you were to tell them.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089833#Comment_119089833

The milk they are taking off the shelf is cheaper than bottled water. Maybe that's part of the problem.

The calves are not worthless but the buyers are able to manipulate the market when they are over supplied for a couple of weeks in the year.

The argument about milk can make up for the loss is like telling a beef farmer that his job will make up for their lack of profitability.

Calves were a good revenue stream for dairy farmers. Now they are not. If i had more land I'd keep alot more of mine.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090429#Comment_119090429

I’m afraid you’ll find for an awful lot of beef farmers that is the case, their sfp and off farm job is making up for the lack of profitability.

It goes to show how easy it is for the dairy man to make money when he doesn’t even realise them things are happening to his beef neighbour!!

I definitely agree about the milk to bottled water comparison too, it’s crazy really.

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090429#Comment_119090429

Yeah fair enough about milk price on the shelves but beef is a bigger loss leader for supermarkets.

'The calves are not worthless but the buyers are able to manipulate the market when they are over supplied for a couple of weeks in the year.' This is simple supply and demand not witchcraft. What are buyers supposed to do, buy a way more calves than they need or can handle just because they all come on the market together? You decided to calve all your cows within a 6 week period in early spring same as 90% of dairy farms now - fair enough as it makes best use of grass and is fair more profitable than any other time of the year, but you have sacrificed the calf value with this decision. If you think there's more money to be made rearing dairy calves than producing milk maybe you should change enterprises - you would be the first! The calf you sold the other day for 250 was a bad buy but some lads just in it for a hobby.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090465#Comment_119090465

I know that's what's happening. My point is that telling someone that their lack of profitability can be just made up somewhere else is bollocks.....

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090558#Comment_119090558

No interest here in pitting farmer against farmer. We're all working hard for the crumbs.

My brother was bidding for calves in the mart this spring. The buyers at the ring turned around to him and called him a xxxxing eejit. They said that man selling the calf doesn't care if he makes 5 euro or 500. He has the money in the milk tank. That's what you call Manipulating the market. Plenty of these guys source them calves for farmers and take a nice cut out of it for themselves.

The industry makes plenty money off all our backs and protect their own margins at our cost. It's great to see their raw material becoming scarce and at least the farmers might have their day yet. Here's to all farmers making a nice profit for their work.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090605#Comment_119090605

It is bollocks alright when you’re talking about supplementing with off farm income alright but it’s not bollocks when talking about a dairy cow and calf as the small calf is leading to more profit from the cow.

mahoney_j

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089075#Comment_119089075

Milk won’t always be 50 cent .and shur fook the beef man so just give him our scraps ….no wonder there’s such contempt for dairy farmers ….we need to put as much effort into breeding quality beef and male dairy ainmals as we do into our own breeding stock ..lots of lads should be left with there calves to rear going on some of the attitudes shown

patsy_mccabe

I have 2 purebred limousin cows here and their calving figure (for cows) is about 2.8%. They are big animals. With the way breeding is going, there is no need for dairy farmers to be producing poor quality calves.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090214#Comment_119090214

Again, I am genuinely at a loss to understand how someone can describe the consumer as irrelevant. The animal welfare lobby is small . It is the ordinary consumer like me that matters. The arrogance shown on here is beyond bizarre.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091058#Comment_119091058

That kind of reasonable ideology won’t get you anywhere on here. Much better to produce a small calf , half feed it and then throw it into the mart at two days old if you can get away with it .

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091129#Comment_119091129

Sure if the consumer doesn't want milk then do without it. Drink oat juice. I'm fine with selling up the cows and putting the feet up.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091215#Comment_119091215

Nobody said that the consumer doesn’t want milk but would it be too much to ask that it be produced without engineering cruelty into it ? The consumer doesn’t have to be an Einstein to be aware of the issues surrounding worthless horses, dogs etc without having worthless calves as well .

Gillespy

It must be really galling to see people making a go of it with these so called worthless calves. Shows what's achievable when you drop some ego and get on with it. Step 1: stop calling them worthless. This level of bitterness towards your neighbour dairy farmer isn't healthy. It's fairly disturbing actually.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091251#Comment_119091251

Phuck you and your cruelty. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. My animals are like family to me. I'm here now talking to Caroline, one of my favourite cows who hurt her leg going to dairy a few days ago. I'm lifting her 3 times a day with the loader, talking to her and milking her by hand. I'll be checking on her before bed and first thing in the morning. My calves get the best of care as is the case on 99% of farms. I have 2 5 star stock bulls to provide good beef calves.

K.G.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091144#Comment_119091144

How do you manage to get them into the marts at 2 days old

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091372#Comment_119091372

Settle down . I wasn’t accusing you personally nor any other dairy farmer of any cruelty .

I know what it is like to try to do your best for animals .

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091308#Comment_119091308

In fairness some dairy cross bull calves are worthless and that is why up on 29k of them were slaughtered to date in DAFM approved facilities as they wouldn't get a bid in a mart. TBH I don't have a problem with it (although I understand that is abhorrent to others) the same way as I don't have a problem with worthless male chickens been euthanised/gassed as day old chicks - I still continue to eat chicken. However I do not agree with on farm culling of day old unwanted/worthless JE/JEx/Kiwi bull calves and that sort of carry on needs to stop.

I'm reliably informed that the slaughtered Irish calf carcasses are quartered, boxed, frozen and exported to other Countries for human consumption.

ginger22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091251#Comment_119091251

Here we go again with the crap from the entitled thankless crowd. You should be glad that farmers are willing to work all hours of the day and night to provide food at a reasonable price to the citizens of the world. I dont know what your line of business is but I dont go around telling you how to run it. What gives you the right to dictate how I should run mine. I can assure you that I take good care of all my livestock. Perhaps with the looming shortage of food brought on by the war in Ukraine people like you will wake up and appreciate that you have never gone a day hungry.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119092723#Comment_119092723

Wow !

I have commented on this thread on the subject of newborn calves being bred and killed shortly after birth . I am not accusing you or any other poster of neglect or cruelty . The fact remains that at least 30k calves have already been killed in the last four months . That is an issue that all dairy farmers and their organisations need to address.

I am a part time farmer in the West who has been involved with cattle since I was six years old , which is over fifty years ago . If you bothered to read some of my other posts on here you would know that .

K.G.

Right .less individual stuff and more general discussion.winning an argument on here doesn't really amount to a whole lot in general scheme of life