Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

bilston · 22-10-2019 11:31pm

Interestingly this is the first time (certainly in the last 20 years) where an Irish head coach has bowed out immediately after a WC.

I wonder if that will mean we adopt a different approach to previous world cup aftermaths, it might be that we see more change in 2020 than what we saw in 2016, 2012, 2008 and 2004. I don't include 2000 because, although it took a hammering at Twickenham, there was actually significant change that year after the '99 disaster in Lens.

Foxtrol · 23-10-2019 12:07am

ClanofLams wrote: »

It certainly couldn’t have gone much worse. My view is fairly straightforward, jerseys shouldn’t be owned but earned repeatedly. Standards need to be met to retain your place. You tell Murray or who ever you’re not playing up to form you need to do x y and z better, if you do you’ll be starting at the World Cup, if you don’t you won’t. If he doesn’t raise his standards, you go with Luke McGrath if he’s your second choice.

The year went about as bad it could have possibly gone with performances way below what they had been and yet we somehow ended up starting a team that could have been predicted last November. That isn’t the sign of an elite team and it will never result in success.

From how the team performed during the WC when Sexton wasn't on the pitch some signs point that it could very well have been much worse.

I hope to see your view to stay consistent and you'll call for Aki to be benched for a Champions Cup or key Pro 14 game if he has any poor run of form for Connacht in the future, no matter who the next choice ends up being available.

ClanofLams · 23-10-2019 2:25am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Really? They were just over rated? I'd say in almost every position on that day we had one of the top couple players we've ever had in the professional era. And yet they barely took a shot at Wales, caught completely cold. On the biggest day of their careers.

Now obviously there were other problems, the decision to pick ROG and general gameplan failures, but we also greatly underperformed on the day. A common problem.

Just like Schmidt dropping Toner. As you said, he has also been called ruthless. It's almost like even a pragmatic experienced coach can't just fix his problems with an entire team underperforming by dropping the entire team... Almost like a coach is responsible for more than just picking a team. It's not championship manager 2001.

It's interesting that this has been identified by people with huge experience of success in the game as a problem. Its been identified by people present as a problem. There's a clear example of a focus on this side of the game greatly improving a team's ability to deliver on their percieved potential with more consistency. There's a lot of symptoms across Irish rugby that match up to similar problems. And yet you're dismissing it out of hand.

I had no interest in getting into an analysis of the 2011 World Cup so I probably said over rated a bit glibly but as you point out, not being settled on your halfbacks is a serious issue. I perhaps should have said the Welsh XV was under rated, their fifteen that started that day is arguably their greatest in the professional era and they have had some good sides.

This is something that Schmidt has chosen to come out with after the match and frankly it’s a pretty handy excuse to throw out there. I think it’s a bit of a cop out and a massive reach to say a team comprised of many who have won every medal in the game bar the World Cup have a mental failing. You frequently point to the France performance in 2018, that was a year ago, showed massive mental strength to go forty plus phases from their own 22. It’s also a massive reach to say this is an ongoing thing that affects every Ireland team in every tournament.

Your comparison to the All Blacks is ridiculous. That was a team that was for large spells the best in the World but coming up slightly short in World Cups. It wasn’t a team that got three hidings in the only three competitive fixtures they played against top tier teams and lost to a tier two side, admittedly an excellent tier two side.

Ultimately Ireland have had an absolute disastrous year, yet their starting XV could have been predicted a year ago (maybe some had Toner as first choice, but Ryan Henderson was always likely to win out I thought, worth pointing out Toner had injury issues too). The team performed way below standard and there was no consequences for such performances. We put them out after nine months of that hoping they would pick up their form on the grass while the All Blacks were doing the haka. Unsurprisingly, it didn’t work.

ClanofLams · 23-10-2019 2:27am

Foxtrol wrote: »

From how the team performed during the WC when Sexton wasn't on the pitch some signs point that it could very well have been much worse.

I hope to see your view to stay consistent and you'll call for Aki to be benched for a Champions Cup or key Pro 14 game if he has any poor run of form for Connacht in the future, no matter who the next choice ends up being available.

It’s obviously a much smaller scale but Tom Farrell has been one of the standout players for Connacht over the last two seasons and hasn’t started a game all season due to form, I’m fine with that. If Aki has a sustained period of below par performances then I would expect him to be dropped.

Shefwedfan · 23-10-2019 7:14am

The fact we could pick the team and squad a year out with the entire squad having experience was seen as a huge plus

Now in hindsight everyone is saying it’s a negative?

lord quackinton · 23-10-2019 8:22am

bilston wrote: »

Well within 18 months of the 2007 debacle we won the Grand Slam and Leinster won the HEC, in fact Munster won the HEC less than 9 months after the 2007 WC.

The players will be mentally strong enough to recover.

Correct me if i am wrong but there was minimum 6 changes in those teams
Is there scope for that now

Also kidney was head coach and he and mick Doyle are the best Coaches we ever had

Mr Tickle · 23-10-2019 8:23am

ClanofLams wrote: »

It’s obviously a much smaller scale but Tom Farrell has been one of the standout players for Connacht over the last two seasons and hasn’t started a game all season due to form, I’m fine with that. If Aki has a sustained period of below par performances then I would expect him to be dropped.

Same with Marmion.

Wegians89 · 23-10-2019 8:30am

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Same with Marmion.

And Buckley, that’s three big players who were dropped for form

kilns · 23-10-2019 8:46am

Ireland to win the 2020 six nations, you heard it here first

blinding · 23-10-2019 8:49am

kilns wrote: »

Ireland to win the 2020 six nations, you heard it here first

England and Wales may be on hangover and France are France . So who knows .

Clegg · 23-10-2019 8:54am

jacothelad wrote: »

Addison?

Addison a great player. But from what I've seen of him his main strengths is his line breaking ability. He might be like Ringrose and have some passing skills, but he's not really a creative distributor.

sydthebeat · 23-10-2019 9:10am

kilns wrote: »

Ireland to win the 2020 six nations, you heard it here first

Not that unusual at all.

We're actually second favs behind England

evil_seed · 23-10-2019 9:21am

bilston wrote: »

Interestingly this is the first time (certainly in the last 20 years) where an Irish head coach has bowed out immediately after a WC.

I wonder if that will mean we adopt a different approach to previous world cup aftermaths, it might be that we see more change in 2020 than what we saw in 2016, 2012, 2008 and 2004. I don't include 2000 because, although it took a hammering at Twickenham, there was actually significant change that year after the '99 disaster in Lens.

he kinda bowed out before the 6 nations

washman3 · 23-10-2019 9:22am

kilns wrote: »

Ireland to win the 2020 six nations, you heard it here first

That should make us World Number 1 again and the cycle starts all over.
All we need now is a few new slogans to brainwash the 'fans'

:D

blinding · 23-10-2019 9:25am

washman3 wrote: »

That should make us World Number 1 again and the cycle starts all over.
All we need now is a few new slogans to brainwash the 'fans' :D

Don’t mention the war ....sorry World Cup .:eek:

Niallof9 · 23-10-2019 9:40am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The fact we could pick the team and squad a year out with the entire squad having experience was seen as a huge plus

Now in hindsight everyone is saying it’s a negative?

Plenty of people said we were having the same issues. Kearney, Earls, Murray were all looked at. Sexton is Sexton and with one outhalf gone and then Joey getting injuries its hard to judge that one. But of course they became undroppable. I'd include O'Mahony and Stander in that cohort.

There's plenty of selection inconsitinceies.

Who started scrumhalf against NZ 12 months ago and in the English grand slam win?

Why was Toner getting selected last 6 nations.

Why was Larmour, class all tournament not in the 15, why was Conway sitting in the stands. It became a farce in the end, as usual. We really need to knock this ****e on the head. Zebo also mentions how frustrating it is that it happened again (and he wasn't including himself in it).

At this stage there has to be a deeper reason. And for me, sorry, it goes back to backing the investment. I do blame the IRFu and some of the stuff around it. The irish rugby team becomes like an AIL club where the heroes always get selected depsite a loss of form, cause it seems theres nobody else really. The alikadoos buy their club guys pints after the match and the J1's sit in the corner. You can't be trusting the J1's cause they haven't done it in the "big games" and haven't really earned those pints.

The media hype the **** out of the incumbents, do piece after piece on them, they get big contracts, ringfenced by the central contract and therefore game management minutes, huge sponsors and some other lads just end up pissing their careers away cause they can't get a look in. Been going on for years. Jennings, Cullen, Reddan and say even nearly Mike Ross. Sick of it myself.

Look at New Zealand dropping Rieko Ioane, people say we couldn't do that. Yeah we could to a degree. Stockdale was crap and deserved to be dropped for Conway who is 7 years older and far more experienced. Conway couldn't get in at the time cause he was deemed "too young" and raw, so ended up getting bypassed for years. Who was ahead of him, Earls who has done really well but maybe not as well as his ceiling at 21 suggested.. and an undroppable...?

Some of this goes back to the Joe show...he needs guys who know his system etc. Which for me is a cop out when the system is so basic at times.

The caveat in all this is the players didn't want to deviate out of fear. So some of it has to be judged from that. Stander has footwork in him but he was coached to seek contact. Rob Kearney was interviewed about him running to seek contact explained it was a rucking system thing.

captbarnacles · 23-10-2019 9:41am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Watched the Ire vs Wales 1/4 this morning, to add to my misery. It's shocking similar the issues we had in that game to the NZ one. Physically dominated, unable to match the intensity of the opposition, one out runner after one out runner.

What is it with the team that they fail to get up for a competitive game? The England match in the 6n was a perfect illustration. If they can't manage to rouse themselves for a game against them at home, when can they?

This.

Everything else that happened in the match is downstream from this. The players did not look ready for the intensity of a WC knock-out match.

Niallof9 · 23-10-2019 9:47am

Every game has been like that one for as far back as the Aussie tour.

Squidge did a review of the Japan game comparing it to the past. We went away from the tried and trusted thing against Japan.

he skips/fastforwards through us versus NZ in NOV about 5 minutes of footage in 60 seconds. Its one out runner from our 10 metre line, side to side up and down the pitch one after the other. Obviously we won, but as Hansen pointed out yesterday they are knackered in November.

And all that tactical genius fell apart in the World Cup. Not good enough and hopefully Andy Farrell pulls his finger out

irishbucsfan · 23-10-2019 9:58am

ClanofLams wrote: »

I had no interest in getting into an analysis of the 2011 World Cup so I probably said over rated a bit glibly but as you point out, not being settled on your halfbacks is a serious issue. I perhaps should have said the Welsh XV was under rated, their fifteen that started that day is arguably their greatest in the professional era and they have had some good sides.

This is something that Schmidt has chosen to come out with after the match and frankly it’s a pretty handy excuse to throw out there. I think it’s a bit of a cop out and a massive reach to say a team comprised of many who have won every medal in the game bar the World Cup have a mental failing. You frequently point to the France performance in 2018, that was a year ago, showed massive mental strength to go forty plus phases from their own 22. It’s also a massive reach to say this is an ongoing thing that affects every Ireland team in every tournament.

Your comparison to the All Blacks is ridiculous. That was a team that was for large spells the best in the World but coming up slightly short in World Cups. It wasn’t a team that got three hidings in the only three competitive fixtures they played against top tier teams and lost to a tier two side, admittedly an excellent tier two side.

Ultimately Ireland have had an absolute disastrous year, yet their starting XV could have been predicted a year ago (maybe some had Toner as first choice, but Ryan Henderson was always likely to win out I thought, worth pointing out Toner had injury issues too). The team performed way below standard and there was no consequences for such performances. We put them out after nine months of that hoping they would pick up their form on the grass while the All Blacks were doing the haka. Unsurprisingly, it didn’t work.

Im not saying it because Schmidt came out with it after the match. I came to my own conclusion. I only realised Schmidt had also said it when you pointed it out (haven’t really watched any media or interviews since).

But there you go. Seems multiple people think this is a very important part of the game. Seems it was vital in turning around the ABs as well to become one of the most concsistent teams in world sports. But maybe you know better and it’s just a cop out.

The fact you use the mental strength against France as an example just says to me you don’t fully appreciate how this affects teams in different situations. To be fair I also didn’t until I was lucky enough to discuss it with a guy who was on that side at a dinner and then got (Some very low level I’m sure) coaching along those lines through my club. We are more than capable of showing huge mental strength. That’s not the problem, no one is saying the team is incapable of showing mental strength. I genuinely think you should listen to some experts in the field discuss their opinions on this. The Richie McCaw documentary is a place to start. For example the problem with NZ in 2007 was not that they were mentally weak, it’s that they did not give themselves the tools to bring themselves back to a state where they were comfortable. Or when they needed a drop goal and suddenly they were incapable of doing it because they had never considered that failure scenario together. Small changes in approach and preparation to allow elite athletes to take back control of their performance and deliver even when things aren’t going to plan. Rather than repeatedly watching our teams turn completely into ghosts for the first half on the biggest stage because of a couple of early mistakes.

I know it’s easier to say it’s selection. I know for armchair fans that’s the first thing we think of when we think about the job of a coach. But it’s just not the problem, there’s very very little argument that the XV we put out aren’t the best players available or very close, they just weren’t able to perform. It was a performance problem, and as inconvenient as it might be that the problem is something that is extremely complex and requires genuine professional expertise to solve, there’s absolutely nothing to be gained by pretending it’s something easy just so we can justify a rant, that’s just masturbation.

Niallof9 · 23-10-2019 10:20am

There's a myriad of reasons. Its not as simple as A,b or c. As much as he is disliked, matt Williams talked of the different types of organisations etc and how they are coached. Anybody who has, listened to the players, studied him, or read about it or knows people involved knows that Joe is a scary dude in rugby related team matters. This has affects on mentality and performance. For the most part its been spectacular in terms of mental fortitude. The phases in the French match takes so much balls, courage and workrate that its outstanding. Like even at lower levels after 5 or 6 phases its nearly impossible to go on.

People comparing Warren leaving with Joe, Gatland left loads of times and Wales didn't fall apart. Joe is such a control freak it had to have some percentage of us falling off. There's another minus for the mentality of the group. Again the players are largely blameless in that.

Selection wasn't going to beat New Zealand.

But you can't argue that some of the lads didn't deserve a start. Recognizing actual form, and buzz and energy, it will be the first step to Ireland actually performing on these type of stage. As human beings i can speculate that when they saw the name of Toner missing, many of his friends, they are friends, were hugely disappointed for him, and i'd imagine scratching their heads. Again a minus for the positive mentality of the group. This can be all denied or wild speculation. But the language we saw used by the players, the body language, the preformances, the loss to Japan it was all radiating through our tv screens. Best looked like a man last Saturday who knew he was being sent out to slaughter. And in fairness he did an honorable job.

And the second elephant in the room is our tactics and how those tactics are genuinely holding our guys back. CJ Stander has turned from a lad who can make breaks in his own 22 to a poor mans Vunipola when he's actually not that big at all. Its not CJ's choice. There is huge problems here, and all that affects performance.

Hopefully Farrell recognizes all this and moves us on. The Joe show is over.

Foxtrol · 23-10-2019 3:40pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

It’s obviously a much smaller scale but Tom Farrell has been one of the standout players for Connacht over the last two seasons and hasn’t started a game all season due to form, I’m fine with that. If Aki has a sustained period of below par performances then I would expect him to be dropped.

How about if Farrell is out, like Carbery was for the 6 nations game and the early WC? Would you also be good with benching Aki?

aloooof · 23-10-2019 3:49pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

I hope to see your view to stay consistent and you'll call for Aki to be benched for a Champions Cup or key Pro 14 game if he has any poor run of form for Connacht in the future, no matter who the next choice ends up being available.

I don't think anyone is saying a player should be dropped without any consideration for who is next is line.

Foxtrol wrote: »

How about if Farrell is out, like Carbery was for the 6 nations game and the early WC? Would you also be good with benching Aki?

Connacht's quality of squad depth isn't anywhere near Ireland's, for obvious reasons. And I go back to my point above.

ClanofLams · 23-10-2019 4:05pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Im not saying it because Schmidt came out with it after the match. I came to my own conclusion. I only realised Schmidt had also said it when you pointed it out (haven’t really watched any media or interviews since).

But there you go. Seems multiple people think this is a very important part of the game. Seems it was vital in turning around the ABs as well to become one of the most concsistent teams in world sports. But maybe you know better and it’s just a cop out.

The fact you use the mental strength against France as an example just says to me you don’t fully appreciate how this affects teams in different situations. To be fair I also didn’t until I was lucky enough to discuss it with a guy who was on that side at a dinner and then got (Some very low level I’m sure) coaching along those lines through my club. We are more than capable of showing huge mental strength. That’s not the problem, no one is saying the team is incapable of showing mental strength. I genuinely think you should listen to some experts in the field discuss their opinions on this. The Richie McCaw documentary is a place to start. For example the problem with NZ in 2007 was not that they were mentally weak, it’s that they did not give themselves the tools to bring themselves back to a state where they were comfortable. Or when they needed a drop goal and suddenly they were incapable of doing it because they had never considered that failure scenario together. Small changes in approach and preparation to allow elite athletes to take back control of their performance and deliver even when things aren’t going to plan. Rather than repeatedly watching our teams turn completely into ghosts for the first half on the biggest stage because of a couple of early mistakes.

I know it’s easier to say it’s selection. I know for armchair fans that’s the first thing we think of when we think about the job of a coach. But it’s just not the problem, there’s very very little argument that the XV we put out aren’t the best players available or very close, they just weren’t able to perform. It was a performance problem, and as inconvenient as it might be that the problem is something that is extremely complex and requires genuine professional expertise to solve, there’s absolutely nothing to be gained by pretending it’s something easy just so we can justify a rant, that’s just masturbation.

Based on this argument about the best XV, teams should never drop players due to form, if they are the best players just keeping put them out there. That goes against what every elite sports team in the world does.

I don’t think selection would have solved all issues by any means but there needs to be consequences for performances, as there is with every top team. I think everything went right in 2018 and the gap that was there between Ireland was narrower than was perceived. Our game plan was caught up with this year, we tried to adapt to a degree but fell between two stools to an extent.

Your constant comparison to the All Blacks are strange, the All Blacks were failing narrowly in World Cups, it’s nothing like the performances Ireland produced this year. Mental failings don’t cause twenty plus point defeats.

Foxtrol · 23-10-2019 4:07pm

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying a player should be dropped without any consideration for who is next is line.

Connacht's quality of squad depth isn't anywhere near Ireland's, for obvious reasons. And I go back to my point above.

The drop off from Sexton and Murray playing well is much larger than most positions for Ireland. When they are on form they are the best in the world and their replacements don't come close.

The argument that was being made, and what was apparently 'proved in 2019', was that players should be benched if they aren't performing to send some kind of message to them and the squad. If you start putting in caveats then their whole argument falls apart.

ClanofLams · 23-10-2019 4:08pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

How about if Farrell is out, like Carbery was for the 6 nations game and the early WC? Would you also be good with benching Aki?

I never said Sexton should be dropped. I said leaving him on the pitch for 72 minutes when he’s the worst player on the field sends out a bad message to the squad.

As for your example, I would be fine with Robb and Godwin starting. But I appreciate the point you are making about inexperience of back ups. I actually said on here earlier this week that Sexton couldn’t have been dropped for Cardiff due to Carty’s inexperience but he should have been off much earlier.

aloooof · 23-10-2019 4:26pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

The drop off from Sexton and Murray playing well is much larger than most positions for Ireland. When they are on form they are the best in the world and their replacements don't come close.

No disagreement there.

Foxtrol wrote: »

The argument that was being made, and what was apparently 'proved in 2019', was that players should be benched if they aren't performing to send some kind of message to them and the squad. If you start putting in caveats then their whole argument falls apart.

You made the implication that ClanOfLams argument was that players should be dropped without any consideration of who is next in line. I didn't see anywhere that he suggested this. (He specifically mentioned replacements, e.g. if Ross Byrne had been on the bench vs Wales he'd have wanted him on sooner too).

And that's a perfectly reasonable caveat, for obvious reasons.

ClanOfClams clearly thinks the back-ups are good enough replacements. You seem to differ (which is completely fine). But nowhere was it being said that players should be dropped without any consideration for who the next in line is.

Foxtrol · 23-10-2019 4:31pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

I never said Sexton should be dropped. I said leaving him on the pitch for 72 minutes when he’s the worst player on the field sends out a bad message to the squad.

As for your example, I would be fine with Robb and Godwin starting. But I appreciate the point you are making about inexperience of back ups. I actually said on here earlier this week that Sexton couldn’t have been dropped for Cardiff due to Carty’s inexperience but he should have been off much earlier.

On Sexton I accept you didn't but others with similar opinion as you on benching have called for that.

For me when it comes to benching a player it isn't just inexperience at issue, it is the player's current ceiling. There is a judgement call that can only be made by the coach and we only know whether it was right or not in hindsight.

Foxtrol · 23-10-2019 4:38pm

aloooof wrote: »

No disagreement there.

You made the implication that ClanOfLams argument was that players should be dropped without any consideration of who is next in line. I didn't see anywhere that he suggested this. (He specifically mentioned replacements, e.g. if Ross Byrne had been on the bench vs Wales he'd have wanted him on sooner too).

And that's a perfectly reasonable caveat, for obvious reasons.

ClanOfClams clearly thinks the back-ups are good enough replacements. You seem to differ (which is completely fine). But nowhere was it being said that players should be dropped without any consideration for who the next in line is.

You need to go back a few pages but there were plenty of broad claims thrown around (not necessarily all by ClanOfLams) that if a player isn't performing they should be benched, 'won't somebidy please think of the squad players' if stars are underperforming and aren't dropped, and that in 2019 we've learned for a fact that players cant play themselves into form.

The point where I jumped in was that I agree in most cases and have seen Schmidt do this repeatedly, as both Leinster and Irish coach, but when it comes to star players where the drop off is large it becomes a much grayer area, where that absolute talk doesn't work, it isn't really the fault of a coach if there are players that are deemed 'undroppable' and the choice to stick with the incumbents isn't proved the wrong approach if results don't go their way.

aloooof · 23-10-2019 4:46pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

You need to go back a few pages but there were plenty of broad claims thrown around (not necessarily all by ClanOfLams) that if a player isn't performing they should be benched, 'won't somebidy please think of the squad players' if stars are underperforming and aren't dropped, and that in 2019 we've learned for a fact that players cant play themselves into form.

The point where I jumped in was that I agree in most cases and have seen Schmidt do this repeatedly, as both Leinster and Irish coach, but when it comes to star players where the drop off is large it becomes a much grayer area, where that absolute talk doesn't work, it isn't really the fault of a coach if there are players that are deemed 'undroppable' and the choice to stick with the incumbents isn't proved the wrong approach if results don't go their way.

Fair enough on this, I'd agree with all of that tbh.

Shefwedfan · 23-10-2019 4:50pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

You need to go back a few pages but there were plenty of broad claims thrown around (not necessarily all by ClanOfLams) that if a player isn't performing they should be benched, 'won't somebidy please think of the squad players' if stars are underperforming and aren't dropped, and that in 2019 we've learned for a fact that players cant play themselves into form.

The point where I jumped in was that I agree in most cases and have seen Schmidt do this repeatedly, as both Leinster and Irish coach, but when it comes to star players where the drop off is large it becomes a much grayer area, where that absolute talk doesn't work, it isn't really the fault of a coach if there are players that are deemed 'undroppable' and the choice to stick with the incumbents isn't proved the wrong approach if results don't go their way.

I agree. More or less the answer was to drop XYZ from the team. The problem was the replacement player wasn't good enough...

Take Sexton for example who is the prime target for all this. They did drop him, for the Japan match and it was a disaster.

They did take him off at half time in Russia match, again it was a disaster. Murray didn't start and this forum was full of how s**t McGrath was.

Anytime McGrath came on for last 20 mins or so, again forum full of how s**t McGrath was.

Then comes the NZ match and everyone wants both Sexton and Murray dropped, but for who?

I am not saying Joe was 100% right either.....

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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