The kickstarter adventures of Sólás - solaswatches.com

banie01

Thirdfox wrote: »

And speaking to GPHG members - the dream is get to a win for Ireland at the GPHG come Sólás Lir.

Fúcking hell TF!
Fair play on that as an ambition and a goal!
Go big or go home, and I must say given your eye for detail, your drive to satisfy yourself, and your incremental but always improving approach!

I'd back you to do it, that is a big, ballsy and determined assertion!
I'll have to buy a Lír and attend the ceremony, ya crazy bollox

Thirdfox

I'm certainly not Rado (who were one of the forerunners with tungsten with their Diastar models in the past) - but taking something comparable(ish) - you can see the difference in price between a ceramic model and their stainless steel Captain Cook models (all else being equal):

1. Stainless steel - https://www.rado.com/collections/captain-cook/captain-cook/R32105318 - 2,390 euro rrp
2. Ceramic (case and bracelet) - https://www.rado.com/collections/captain-cook/captain-cook-ht-ceramic/R32127152 - 3600chf/3200 euro rrp.

From what I understand about material/manufacturing costs Rado would be making more money/margin from their stainless steel model than the ceramic one. But Sólás is no Rado that's for sure - so increases are smaller - but then my tungsten version at KS isn't costing 2.3k either - you can make a rough guess of what a SS version of the Equinox would cost based on the Rado comparison though.

@Banie - you raise a good point - perhaps we could do a stainless steel Equinox to make it more affordable for people too - but that would feel more "commercial" to me in that it's making money from a much cheaper product and will be less "special" - relying instead of people loving the Sólás design to choose it over a NTH sub/tudor homage or any number of great stainless steel dive watch microbrand or factory brand models.

A stainless steel Equinox like 893 and others point out - *may* be more likely to get made as I'll have a chance to lower prices quite a bit... but a tungsten Equinox (and we'll have a ratcheting tungsten clasp - I've squeezed out pennies from elsewhere) is what will get us featured on the largest watch publications in the world (I hope!)

So if Sólás becomes a well-known brand and our design language is something that people enjoy so much that they'd be happy to have something in steel then one day one might be released - it'd be easier to make money from a SS model for sure compared to a tungsten model.... similar to the eagrán brádan feasa - this time the whole Equinox tungsten model line is a "halo" product for Sólás - demonstrating to people that Sólás is here to do things that no microbrand is willing to risk and do. And in the background building reputation and trust towards the repeater goal.

^ There's risk of course - that people will look at it and say "meh - not interested" - and that will teach the rest of the microbrand industry too to perhaps stay safe and continue making sub homages.

But I think experimentation can be rewarded too - the KS pricing is actually shooting Sólás in the foot in that popular microbrand stores are only willing to offer pricing that are based on our lowest KS price rather than our genuine retail prices - I'm willing to put prices as low as possible to get the watch made at the KS stage but yeah - the Equinox (at retail) *should* (based on manufacturing cost) be a 1k+ euro watch. People will know I'm serious when the retail Starlights come out at the true retail prices too - KS Starlights were a great deal (though now people have a choice of Lobinni - not if you want aventurine and original design too) - the KS Equinox will still be a great deal too (it's just that the product has become a lot more expensive for me to produce).


...oh and if Equinox/model 2 succeeds - you guys have already seen that model 3 is a tourbillon - it's going to be more audacious than a tungsten micro-rotor diver :pac: - leading ultimately to model 6 our repeater...

banie01

@TF, sorry I wasn't clear on my stainless suggestion.

I still mean make a tungsten watch head/case but to maybe give an easier bracelet manufacturing process and clasp option, to go with steel but utilise a tungsten pvd coating to colour match and scratch proof it.

Using a PVD, or electroplating process maybe?
Akin to this?
https://www.asbindustries.com/tungsten-carbide-coatings#:~:text=It is approximately twice as,strength and extreme wear resistance.

Thirdfox

Ah understood - I've been leery of plating (PVD/DLC is very different to gold plating of the past I know) - it's why I don't ask for double sided anti-reflective coating on the sapphire crystal (actually one pro a mineral crystal has over sapphire is anti-reflective properties) as coatings inevitably get worn over time (and Sólás may have reduced ability to get things re-plated over time).

Intrinsically I prefer "natural" - solid stuff through and through - it's just inherently scratch proof - though for example Hamtun's PVD on titanium has held up okay (though I don't wear it that often) I have seen on the facebook groups of other people who have had theirs wear off after a month of wear.

With a SS bracelet you might lose some inherent balance on the watch too as you have a pretty heavy head and a light bracelet. Tungsten is interesting due to its weight too (which will put off some others I'm sure who would prefer titanium or SS bracelets) - but the point being they can go and buy nice titanium or SS bracelets - you can't buy a nice tungsten bracelet at all right now - and never could get one with a ratcheting clasp.

Yes - it's going to be appealing to a specific niche audience - but that's the power of crowdfunding and why you're paying 8% to KS in fees - trying to locate the niche of people worldwide who may be interested in such a niche product that has never been made before.

It will also appeal to the facebook watch collector groups who already have a titanium diver, ss diver, now there is something genuinely different for them to purchase too (in the diver category) and I would see PVD as a "half-measure" with pros (cost) and cons of its own.

Thirdfox

Just as an example - something I spotted today - here's a great (or perhaps "good enough") ceramic/sapphire/ss case homage watch for....$90:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa_Z5f5TYgM
(Pagani Design "Explorer" lol submariner).

People will be buying a Sólás not because it is something they can get elsewhere but absolutely because only we make it (and it makes sense to make it) - not making a homer car :



Makes you question how will Steinhart and the "premium" homage makers survive in the future (though you see Steinhart moving further into original designs too) when Chinese factories put so much pressure on bargain pricing from below. Great for customers who want choice

banie01

I know that that solid Tungsten is the plan, and I know I'm not going to change your mind on that.
Nor indeed do I want to, I am eager to see what your vision births.

But!
Don't equate tungsten carbide coating, with the type of PVD or electroplating used on normal jewellery.
The link earlier explains it better than I can, but it's a highly durable industrial process used to prevent wear on high friction and high wear parts.
A lot of Tungsten and Tungsten carbide drill bits and cutting discs are actually coated in a similar fashion rather than solid.

I came across it when a controls company were installing production lines in a place I used to work.
It eliminated (they claimed) 95% of wear failure and they swore by it.
If memory serves it was described as a superheated plasma deposit process, sounded super fancy :P

Totally get the balance concerns, and agree.
The ratcheting solid Tungsten will a real USP if you can pull it off.
My option/idea/alternative was really geared towards perhaps cost, simplified production and allowing a more traditional bracelet clasp option, but that's a problem your ratcheting idea has already solved.

Wibbs

It's odd about the titanium finishes today apparently not being so durable for many and I've read that a few times myself on forums and reviews. How did both Longines and IWC make their carbide coatings on Ti so durable way back in the 80's? One sales trick Longines suggested to retailers was to take one of their Ti watches and drag it down a brick wall in front of the customer to show off how tough it was. OK, neither were cheap watches at the time, but still you'd think with big improvements in manufacturing in the interim it could be more easily done today?

Thirdfox

Wibbs wrote: »

It's odd about the titanium finishes today apparently not being so durable for many and I've read that a few times myself on forums and reviews. How did both Longines and IWC make their carbide coatings on Ti so durable way back in the 80's? One sales trick Longines suggested to retailers was to take one of their Ti watches and drag it down a brick wall in front of the customer to show off how tough it was. OK, neither were cheap watches at the time, but still you'd think with big improvements in manufacturing in the interim it could be more easily done today?

Citizen still has it called "duratect" coatings on their titanium.

I guess there are things which are easier for Chinese factories to do - and asking them to spend tens of thousands (or more I genuinely don't know the cost of this research) when their normal buyers aren't demanding it (or paying for it) means that development has been stagnant.

For Chinese manufacturers it's much easier to be safe (they love working with Seiko NH35s and Miyota 8/9 series) and churn out easily sell-able items. Doing a Chinese duratect coating? That requires risk and investment - easier money to be made doing grade 2 titanium (sometimes a client offers to buy grade 5) or get 904L steel.

A big challenge has been finding partners who are happy to say "we can do that (for a price)" - because so many potential Chinese partners would rather keep on making good money doing homages instead. I've been trying to find someone who could ultimately have the technical ability as well as the drive to create the repeater model.

Fitz II

Delamination is the main problem with tungsten coatings same as all pvd coatings. Andcorrosion is an issue with even slight delamination.

Generally things that are brilliant ideas but not commonly used have serious complications or serious expense...or most commonly are solutions looking for a problem.

Thirdfox

I would have thought that potentially if the coating is thin then it would be even easier to crack vs a solid piece of tungsten carbide?

It's funny though - with tungsten it's sometimes not the actual force of impact (I've done some experiments with tungsten pieces - throwing them at the ground (not just dropping) to see the effects and it can often be *how* it hits the ground, not how hard it hits that determines if cracking occurs - i.e. taking a chisel and impacting an edge is pretty much the worse case scenario for tungsten - so the design of the case/bracelet has taken that into account and avoided edges or stress points where possible and buttressing up support where we had edges for design reasons.

We've been designing this for some time now - it's certainly not just "ah - it'll do" - a lot of interesting engineering challenges were overcome with the design

Thirdfox

Happy Friday all! As I move towards the retail launch of the Starlight I would be interested in hearing from people what they prefer in terms of colourways and date/no-date options. As I need to decide how many in each variation I will be building in each (and need to make this decision "blind" as the date/no-date cutout needs to be made in advance - getting views from people on rose-gold/silver date/no-date will be very useful to me.

Here's me poisoning the survey well now - I always get a feeling that people *say* they like no-date watches (especially dress style watches) - but when it comes to actually *buying* people still want to get a date version for the convenience since "dress watches" are general wear watches nowadays too... Initially I'm thinking 60/40 split between date/no-date and potentially 60/40 silver/rose-gold too (since the case for the rose-gold version isn't in rose gold too - just indices).

I've asked some microbrand stores and owners too - they may be best placed to tell me what they see in actual numbers vs online surveys/gut feelings...

Here are the four retail versions of the Starlight that are being made:

Rose-gold date:


Rose-gold no-date:


Silver date (KS version effectively):


Silver no-date:


Case-back - retail versions will be numbered for each:


But pricing is at retail levels too vs KS levels - ultimately they will be available to order and ship within 2 days etc. - a price has to be paid for that convenience though.

And finally a reminder of what studio photos look like (renders can make it hard to judge what aventurine/silver indices etc. look like vs reality - or studio lighting reality at least ):

Time

Thirdfox wrote: »

Happy Friday all! As I move towards the retail launch of the Starlight I would be interested in hearing from people what they prefer in terms of colourways and date/no-date options.

For me the date is a no brainer, it should have it. While i think the renders look nice without the date, i think in the flesh the date will add a bit of depth to it. As for the Rose Gold i absolutely LOVE IT. But i have a strong preference for rose gold watches anyway.

Cienciano

I agree, rose gold date is the nicest. I understand why people like no date, but for me a date is important. Rose gold gives the dial a nice warmth.

Thirdfox

You fellow date lovers seem to be outnumbered majorly if facebook is to be believed (in terms of enthusiast/microbrand groups). I've added your 2 votes in for date but before your responses it was 13/5 in favour of no-date actually (I didn't count myself).

RG and S are neck and neck (10/10) in terms of preference, but it's 13/7 for nodate vs date - which is very very surprising to me (I'll be waiting to see what the store and brand owners say too).

So far out of the people that expressed concrete preferences it was:
RG 3
RG ND: 5
S 3
S ND: 7

Aph2016

The silver date style is fantastic!

Time

Thirdfox wrote: »

You fellow date lovers seem to be outnumbered majorly if facebook is to be believed (in terms of enthusiast/microbrand groups). I've added your 2 votes in for date but before your responses it was 13/5 in favour of no-date actually (I didn't count myself).

RG and S are neck and neck (10/10) in terms of preference, but it's 13/7 for nodate vs date - which is very very surprising to me (I'll be waiting to see what the store and brand owners say too).

So far out of the people that expressed concrete preferences it was:
RG 3
RG ND: 5
S 3
S ND: 7

One thing i've learned from running my own business the past few years is that what people tell you they want, and what they actually want, aren't always the same. Sometimes you have to decide what they want for them

Thirdfox

Time wrote: »

One thing i've learned from running my own business the past few years is that what people tell you they want, and what they actually want, aren't always the same. Sometimes you have to decide what they want for them

Yes - and it's why I think real hands on experience from stores will be more informative than straw polls in groups - still it's an interesting exercise in seeing what people *feel* they like.

I was speaking to one reviewer who says he hates watches with dates... we talked a bit more and discovered and almost all of his watches *have* dates - so it would seem that he definitely doesn't "hate" the date feature (in that it's a deal-breaker for him).

Makes me think about the 3.5mm jack on phones - I do extremely dislike phones not having a 3.5mm jack - so much so that I do actively choose phone purchases based on whether they have the jack or not... got the cheaper iPad because it still had the 3.5mm jack too - won't be getting a pro version or the latest samsung/apple phones since they don't have a jack.

Time

Thirdfox wrote: »

Makes me think about the 3.5mm jack on phones - I do extremely dislike phones not having a 3.5mm jack - so much so that I do actively choose phone purchases based on whether they have the jack or not... got the cheaper iPad because it still had the 3.5mm jack too - won't be getting a pro version or the latest samsung/apple phones since they don't have a jack.

Translate that to Solas, you'd be one of the few customers that a date/no date would be a deal breaker for. My own belief is that things like that are not all that important once the rest is right. Similarly iPhone sales never dropped off because peoples perception of their feelings towards the 3.5mm jack were stronger than they were in reality.

Edit: I think another important factor you can't overlook here is that you're selling an experience too to a certain degree. The fact you're asking (no matter what the final decision) gives your customers a connection to the product, and that buy in is hugely important IMO.

Thirdfox

But hey - while I say I love having dates on watches (and I do) - I still got an Octo so... and actually their newly released perpetual calendar model does look a little too cluttered perhaps.

Yup - I'm strange about the 3.5mm jack in that it's a true dealbreaker - I've kept my S10 as an old flagship with headphone jack - will "upgrade" to mid-tier phone in the future when the time comes which still has the jack. But my point was that for most people who say a jack is a "dealbreaker" for them the numbers don't reflect that sentiment.

One extra important cohort of people who are voting are people who have signed up for Starlight retail pre-orders/notifications - the people who actually purchase a brand's products are obviously the people that a brand should listen to most (politicians and older/younger voters come to mind ).

This is it

From those 4 I like the rose gold no date the most but... I think I would buy the rose gold with date because I'd miss it and generally prefer to have the date than not

Fitz II

I assume the rose gold is plated?

Thirdfox

Fitz II wrote: »

I assume the rose gold is plated?

Yes - but with the plating in the indices being inside the watch it won't ever be affected by wear.

Oh and it's only the colour of rose gold not the Au750 material (in case anyone thought otherwise).

Fact of the day - the "German Silver" like the type that Langë uses as its baseplate material is also known as Nickel Silver (like what Newbridge uses on its higher quality EPNS cutlery) and isn't Ag925 or silver at all - but a nice nickel/zinc/copper alloy - was discussing that with some other watch fans recently.

Wibbs

Rose gold/date would be my choice anyway.

Lorddrakul

Late to the party, but the rose gold no date is the one for me.

I agree, date on a dress watch is not desirable.

I'm not usually a fan of gold on a watch at all, but the indices only is lovely.

I have enough tool watches that a dress watch is for looks only.

893bet

Rose gold looks fantastic. But I would always err on boring and actually buy the KS version above it.

dinorebel

Rose Gold date for me.

Thirdfox

Movements have arrived in my factory partner's premises - final China-side assembly begins - this is getting very real now - you can see the hundreds of blued movements here (the more I see the blue the more I'm convinced I was right to wait the extra month to get them blued):

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/solaswatches/solas-starlight-an-irish-affordable-micro-rotor-watch/posts/3155878

Update can be found here

Eoin

I think I am leaning toward silver no-date. I do like the rose gold indices, but personally I think they'd be better suited to a watch with a plainer dial.

C0N0R

Date or no date doesn't bother me, but rose gold would for me be the nicer of the two.

banie01

I have no real preference for date or no-date other than it's easier to pick up a no date, set and go
That said a date on the starlight adds a lovely balance to the seconds IMO.

The rose gold indices are lovely, I know you were spitballing RG when originally designing but am I right in thinking that was RG case aswell?
The RG indices in the steel case are a really lovely look imo.

Also, delighted to see the latest KS update, it really is all stations go now!