Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

GM228

J Mysterio wrote: »

I'd imagine you need to demonstrate some level of proficiency?

You need a level B2 in your second language under the topics of understanding, speaking and writing.

CFER language level guides

You need level C1 in the first language.

Some positions however require C2 for first language and C1 for the second.

devnull

Tell me how wrote: »

Excuse my language, but I think it is fair to say that Peter Oborne has no f*cks left to give.

https://twitter.com/UKDemockery/status/1187167075820802048

Naming names is obviously very pointed. C4 will probably pick up slack for letting it happen even though it has been said in many places for a long time. Not least this thread.
Can't see Peston/Keunnsberg being successful in removing the accusation once it has been said in such a forthright manner.

Adam Boulton has now come out in support of Oborne and said that journalists shouldn't be part of the government's 'fake news' machine in an opinion column on the Sky News website and has pretty much backed this up whilst also calling out Laura K directly

https://twitter.com/markaustintv/status/1187984799178342400

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Not even sure why any of you are entertaining the idea that the salaries of a few admin staff are a sensible justification for the UK to leave the EU.

And the UK will have to duplicate a lot of EU agencies it has been using.. Medicines etc. Their spend will only go up.

murphaph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And the UK will have to duplicate a lot of EU agencies it has been using.. Medicines etc. Their spend will only go up.

These costs will be huge too.

liamtech

Anyone watching the DUP Conference - Arlene foster doesnt seem confident at all - genuinely, if anyone was watching last few minutes she is talking in a very shaky way

They are seriously rattled it seems -

woohoo!!!

liamtech wrote: »

Anyone watching the DUP Conference - Arlene foster doesnt seem confident at all - genuinely, if anyone was watching last few minutes she is talking in a very shaky way

They are seriously rattled it seems -

Their Tory PM has side lined them. The opposition who currently are cosying up to them are only interested in using them and the DUP know it. They backed the Brexit horse so they'd be more Britishy and to get one over on nationalists, has blown up in their face. In short, when it comes to Brexit they're as useful as t1ts on a bull. Roadkill of the Brexit bus who are resorting to threats of loyalist (them) violence.

Enzokk

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Their Tory PM has side lined them. The opposition who currently are cosying up to them are only interested in using them and the DUP know it. They backed the Brexit horse so they'd be more Britishy and to get one over on nationalists, has blown up in their face. In short, when it comes to Brexit they're as useful as t1ts on a bull. Roadkill of the Brexit bus who are resorting to threats of loyalist (them) violence.

Also the conditions that allowed them to be kingmakers in the HoC meant they had very little motivation to get Stormont up and running. But these same conditions then turned against them and as a result two policies they opposed vehemently has been passed and there was nothing they could do to stop it. They were trying to be too smart and it came back and bit them.

Then to really rub it in they have been thrown under the bus by Johnson with Brexit so they not only have lost their influence in Westminster and SSM and abortion is now legal in NI. Add into this the RHI scandal that is in the background as well, I suspect in their moments of reflection they would take longer than a few minutes to decide their Brexit strategy with the knowledge of hindsight.

FrancieBrady

liamtech wrote: »

Anyone watching the DUP Conference - Arlene foster doesnt seem confident at all - genuinely, if anyone was watching last few minutes she is talking in a very shaky way

They are seriously rattled it seems -

Where are you watching it?

Kermit.de.frog

liamtech wrote: »

Anyone watching the DUP Conference - Arlene foster doesnt seem confident at all - genuinely, if anyone was watching last few minutes she is talking in a very shaky way

They are seriously rattled it seems -

I have literally seen bigger audiences at weddings.

liamtech

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where are you watching it?

It was live on sky news, but it finished moments ago - i have never seen a more troubled and anxious Arlene Foster in my life - in the early portion her voice was actually shaking - shocking stuff - even during Cash4Ash she was way more stable and confident - today she looked like someone who was due in court next week

Im sure highlights will be shown as the day goes on

briany

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Their Tory PM has side lined them. The opposition who currently are cosying up to them are only interested in using them and the DUP know it. They backed the Brexit horse so they'd be more Britishy and to get one over on nationalists, has blown up in their face. In short, when it comes to Brexit they're as useful as t1ts on a bull. Roadkill of the Brexit bus who are resorting to threats of loyalist (them) violence.

They took too hard a line. I'd have major criticisms of Sinn Fein's approach to Brexit, which has been to sit on their hands for the most part, but whether by accident or by design, Sinn Fein have at least followed the principle of not interrupting your opponent while they're making a mistake.

Let's be fair here, no matter where you put a border, be it on land or at sea, it holds the potential to invite violent causes. It's a huge problem with Brexit, generally. I have been prepared to be fair to both sides on that one. However, because of Arlene's flippant attitude towards the problems with a land border, I find my sympathy towards her crying about a sea border fading fast. Either admit they're both problematic or wind the neck in.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

They took too hard a line. I'd have major criticisms of Sinn Fein's approach to Brexit, which has been to sit on their hands for the most part, but whether by accident or by design, Sinn Fein have at least followed the principle of not interrupting your opponent while they're making a mistake.

Let's be fair here, no matter where you put a border, be it on land or at sea, it holds the potential to invite violent causes. It's a huge problem with Brexit, generally. I have been prepared to be fair to both sides on that one. However, because of Arlene's flippant attitude towards the problems with a land border, I find my sympathy towards her crying about a sea border fading fast. Either admit they're both problematic or wind the neck in.

SF were very vocal at the start, and FG did an about face on 'special status' for NI.

Once they did that I think it was very astute of SF to step back and let the Irish Government do the talking for the NI Irish and indeed those unionists who wanted to remain.

woohoo!!!

briany wrote: »

They took too hard a line. I'd have major criticisms of Sinn Fein's approach to Brexit, which has been to sit on their hands for the most part, but whether by accident or by design, Sinn Fein have at least followed the principle of not interrupting your opponent while they're making a mistake.

Let's be fair here, no matter where you put a border, be it on land or at sea, it holds the potential to invite violent causes. It's a huge problem with Brexit, generally. I have been prepared to be fair to both sides on that one. However, because of Arlene's flippant attitude towards the problems with a land border, I find my sympathy towards her crying about a sea border fading fast. Either admit they're both problematic or wind the neck in.

Whether one is unionist, nationalist or neither, Brexit is a terrible idea for the island of Ireland. So whether it's the DUP or whoever, they need to get that through their head. English nationalism does not care about Ireland, north or south. If they continue to misstep and there's no reason to expect that they'll suddenly wise up, a United Ireland will only be a matter of time.

Strazdas

liamtech wrote: »

It was live on sky news, but it finished moments ago - i have never seen a more troubled and anxious Arlene Foster in my life - in the early portion her voice was actually shaking - shocking stuff - even during Cash4Ash she was way more stable and confident - today she looked like someone who was due in court next week

Im sure highlights will be shown as the day goes on

She said the DUP will continue to vote down the deal and could only support it if Johnson comes up with some all UK solution.

briany

Conservatives + Lib Dems + SNP would give the required majority for a VONC, wouldn't it? All three would fancy their chances at gaining seats, too. And although it would be a fairly unprecedented move, the Cons could call a VONC on their own government, couldn't they?

I mean, I know that opposition say they want to rule out no-deal, but if the EU doesn't grant a long extension (and that's looking more and more likely if they *don't* have a GE), then what other choice do they really have but either have that or the deal on the table? What's the game plan, here?

Joe_ Public

Interesting that the dup now saying it will get behind election which might give johnson some hope. The gov can of course call vonc in itself but that is very odd, nuclear option and wouldnt be there yet, if ever. Dont think theres much chance of johnson winning a vote on monday as long as EU hasnt cleared up the confusion surrounding an extension.

Enzokk

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Interesting that the dup now saying it will get behind election which might give johnson some hope. The gov can of course call vonc in itself but that is very odd, nuclear option and wouldnt be there yet, if ever. Dont think theres much chance of johnson winning a vote on monday as long as EU hasnt cleared up the confusion surrounding an extension.

Labour will not vote for a election under the FTPA, but I think they should jump if the government calls a VONC in itself and their MPs vote for it. How do you try and explain that to the voters if you are Johnson? I am the man to run the country, when I just voted against myself running the country...good luck with that message.

briany

Enzokk wrote: »

Labour will not vote for a election under the FTPA, but I think they should jump if the government calls a VONC in itself and their MPs vote for it. How do you try and explain that to the voters if you are Johnson? I am the man to run the country, when I just voted against myself running the country...good luck with that message.

Very easy. Even Johnson could manage that one. He can just say that he was trying to get around the Fixed Term Parliament act. Nobody apart from those who haven't been following Brexit at all would genuinely think that the UK government had no confidence in itself.

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

Labour will not vote for a election under the FTPA, but I think they should jump if the government calls a VONC in itself and their MPs vote for it. How do you try and explain that to the voters if you are Johnson? I am the man to run the country, when I just voted against myself running the country...good luck with that message.

He likely doesn't need to unfortunately. It will be soon forgotten about and/or spun into something else among a wave of distraction and whataboutery.

Lots has happened so far in this fiasco to beg the question 'How will Tory voters go for this in the next election?' but each member of their voting base will have their own rationale for supporting the bus driver who steers them off a cliff. Facts don't really matter to them at this stage.

Sense has long gone out the window, if it was ever present, and the divide is growing deeper the longer this goes on. A government VONC in itself will be used to show the desperate ends which the Tories had to go to in order to 'Get Brexit Done' for the people.

An Ciarraioch

Interesting that FG have built an eight-point lead over FF - presumably a Brexit bounce after the deal?

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1188123633224425473

Joe_ Public

Enzokk wrote: »

Labour will not vote for a election under the FTPA, but I think they should jump if the government calls a VONC in itself and their MPs vote for it. How do you try and explain that to the voters if you are Johnson? I am the man to run the country, when I just voted against myself running the country...good luck with that message.

All correct i think. If johnson did take that course, and impossible to rule anything out as we all know, then labour hasnt much choice you'd think but to row behind it and make what capital they can from it. Then into that 14 day no man's land period where a lot or possibly nothing could happen. Seem to be compelling reasons to me for labour not to want GE this side of xmas, but stringing it out till the spring could backfire too. No easy choices at present.

reslfj

Strazdas wrote: »

She said the DUP will continue to vote down the deal and could only support it if Johnson comes up with some all UK solution.

The only "all UK solution" possible is revoking A50 before Brexit day.

The DUP and their voters should have realised this before they in 2016 voted "Leave".

Both the UK and Ireland in the EU and the GFA gives peace now, but it has also removed a lot of tensions in NI and improved the economy in NI.

Fewer problems on the island of Ireland will surely delay a UI - maybe even for more decades - and keep the NI a part of the UK.

Isn't this the DUP's stated goal?
Why did they not think? Why do they not think today?

Lars

prunudo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Interesting that FG have built an eight-point lead over FF - presumably a Brexit bounce after the deal?

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1188123633224425473

Not sure when the survey was taken but could also be a knock on effect from the voting scandal. Some voters who would considering voting ff but now afraid they're back to their old ways.

Enzokk

briany wrote: »

Very easy. Even Johnson could manage that one. He can just say that he was trying to get around the Fixed Term Parliament act. Nobody apart from those who haven't been following Brexit at all would genuinely think that the UK government had no confidence in itself.

Deleted User wrote: »

He likely doesn't need to unfortunately. It will be soon forgotten about and/or spun into something else among a wave of distraction and whataboutery.

Lots has happened so far in this fiasco to beg the question 'How will Tory voters go for this in the next election?' but each member of their voting base will have their own rationale for supporting the bus driver who steers them off a cliff. Facts don't really matter to them at this stage.

Sense has long gone out the window, if it was ever present, and the divide is growing deeper the longer this goes on. A government VONC in itself will be used to show the desperate ends which the Tories had to go to in order to 'Get Brexit Done' for the people.

In answer to both, Johnson will blather his way around it, but how does Tory MP from [Enter constituency here] respond when being interviewed and asked the question on why people should vote for him when he doesn't trust Johnson to run the government?

I feel that the Tories could run into trouble that the likes of Kuenssberg and Peston has been called out for their coverage and should feel professional shame about being used. This could mean a tougher stance towards those that put them in that position. I am off course most likely wrong though and in the UK not being confident in yourself as a government will actually lead to voters being confident in you.

Joe_ Public wrote: »

All correct i think. If johnson did take that course, and impossible to rule anything out as we all know, then labour hasnt much choice you'd think but to row behind it and make what capital they can from it. Then into that 14 day no man's land period where a lot or possibly nothing could happen. Seem to be compelling reasons to me for labour not to want GE this side of xmas, but stringing it out till the spring could backfire too. No easy choices at present.

You are right that there are only tough choices for Labour. If you don't really care what happens with Brexit or want to crash out the path is simple, but if you have any sense and want to limit the damage then it is more complicated.

The important thing for Labour will be to try and get the Brexit Party to take Tory votes and the only way to do this is to have Johnson break as many promises as possible. An extension is a must in this case and one to 31st January that Johnson requested would be ideal. Even then it may not be enough as Cummings is good at muddying the water and the line between truth and lies is so blurred right now.

briany

Enzokk wrote: »

In answer to both, Johnson will blather his way around it, but how does Tory MP from [Enter constituency here] respond when being interviewed and asked the question on why people should vote for him when he doesn't trust Johnson to run the government?

Well, almost nobody's going to really ask that question because they can see the context of why a vote of no-confidence was called, i.e. it was merely a tactical move to get around the Fixed-term Parliament act. It would, in fact, be a fairly cynical question to ask, as it would obviously be a VONC in name only.

prawnsambo

reslfj wrote: »

The only "all UK solution" possible is revoking A50 before Brexit day.

The DUP and their voters should have realised this before they in 2016 voted "Leave".

Both the UK and Ireland in the EU and the GFA gives peace now, but it has also removed a lot of tensions in NI and improved the economy in NI.

Fewer problems on the island of Ireland will surely delay a UI - maybe even for more decades - and keep the NI a part of the UK.

Isn't this the DUP's stated goal?
Why did they not think? Why do they not think today?

Lars

You forget that the DUP have always hated the GFA. Voting for brexit was for them a free shot at breaking it. Doesn't matter if it loses, they can carry on as before. When it passed, they thought it was happy days and the death of the hated GFA. They never foresaw (did any brexiter?) that the Irish position and the GFA would find support from the rest of the EU. They believed the propaganda that the UK would get the easiest deal in history and the power of the UK would completely obliterate little Ireland.

Infini

prawnsambo wrote: »

You forget that the DUP have always hated the GFA. Voting for brexit was for them a free shot at breaking it. Doesn't matter if it loses, they can carry on as before. When it passed, they thought it was happy days and the death of the hated GFA. They never foresaw (did any brexiter?) that the Irish position and the GFA would find support from the rest of the EU. They believed the propaganda that the UK would get the easiest deal in history and the power of the UK would completely obliterate little Ireland.

Unfortunately for them their thinking and positions are relics of a past era and they're finding out being stupid and putting flegs and ideology before the common interest doesnt get them what they want, it gets them nothing and made examples of why the opinions of ididots should be ignored and ridiculed.

They didn't think about how the position they were taking would backfire on them so spetacularly, by pushing and jumping into the leave camp not only have they drawn attention to themselves which ultimately got abortion and SSM legalised in the last week but also they went and reactivated the Irish Question which had they just left things well enough alone would not be something that could be decided in the next decade or less and not 40 odd years from now. They literally brought forward the chance of a border poll by decades with their shenanigans.

What they also failed in all this is they screwed the buisness and the farming communities in all of this and who did they go to when they had to decide all this, not their buisness or farming supporters but their loyalist "terrorist" friends who like "IRA" are nothing more than glorified criminal outfits today, relics of a past era unfit for modern times.

They shít the bed and now the can lie in it, get nothing and like it and be ridiculed and ultimately be sidelined by the people of NI they're unfit for any sort of goverment and should be sidelined and mocked as such for human stupidity is the cancer of this existence and they're the prime example of why the opinions of idiots should not be listened to.

pixelburp

Thing is with the DUP, beyond the ink spent decrying their short sightedness, has there been any sense of this reflecting in polls? Last set of stats I saw didn't show any sign of a weakening of the DUPs support, while the local elections hardly signalled a wipeout either IIRC. If there is to be a December election, I'm not convinced they'll be punished for their presumptuous hubris, not in constituencies so heavily segregated and institutionalised.

An Ciarraioch

Tories with a 16-point lead, which would give them a larger majority than Blair in 1997:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1188150296209436673

Con 425
Lab 145
SNP 35
Lib Dems 24
DUP 9
SF 7
Plaid 4
Green 2
Alliance 1
Sylvia Hermon 1

FrancieBrady

pixelburp wrote: »

Thing is with the DUP, beyond the ink spent decrying their short sightedness, has there been any sense of this reflecting in polls? Last set of stats I saw didn't show any sign of a weakening of the DUPs support, while the local elections hardly signalled a wipeout either IIRC. If there is to be a December election, I'm not convinced they'll be punished for their presumptuous hubris, not in constituencies so heavily segregated and institutionalised.

Not much drop in their vote I'd imagine until real Brexit sets in. They have already set in motion their finely honed 'unionism under siege' strategy which has rallied the support before for them.