Replay: All Ireland SFC Final Dublin v Kerry Saturday 14/09/2019 @ 6pm

jimmytwotimes 2013

The association shud always be looking to improve. Maybe it's time to video-review all championship goals. Play could continue cos if the scorer over-carried it could be chalked off as the free out wud be taken from roughly the same place as the kickout.

Been a few goals in recent years where scorer has been in double-digits on step count.

Happyilylost

gormdubhgorm wrote:

The irony is the last two games between Kerry and Dublin will go down as classics and will eulogised about for years. I think it will be seen as the start of a golden age for gaelic football a new era in it's development. People will have gotten used to variations in style of play.

You may be over playing the first game as a classic. Intensity and drama maybe but quality was lacking. Reminded me a lot of Mayo vs Donegal. Yesterday was a massive improvement till the last twenty minutes when Kerry fell away. Dublin were brilliant throughout. Very clinical. Apart from Connolly they had very few cheap turnovers.

jr86

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The irony is the last two games between Kerry and Dublin will go down as classics and will eulogised about for years.
I think it will be seen as the start of a golden age for gaelic football a new era in it's development. People will have gotten used to variations in style of play.

In twenty years time they might even have programmes with teams actual formations rather than the 1-15 the traditionalists hang on to.

The 2017 final was much more dramatic than yesterday. A point in it at the end, the game completely in the balance all the way through. Dublin never looked like losing yesterday

jr86

Trey13 wrote: »

Serious doomsday stuff from so called neutrals here. At the end of the day about 7/8 of the Dublin players are coming to the end of their intercounty careers and when they go there will be a massive dip in performance from Dublin

7/8 bit part players maybe

Did Dublin even have any outfield starter over the age of 30 bar Mick Fitz?

gormdubhgorm

Happyilylost wrote: »

You may be over playing the first game as a classic. Intensity and drama maybe but quality was lacking. Reminded me a lot of Mayo vs Donegal. Yesterday was a massive improvement till the last twenty minutes when Kerry fell away. Dublin were brilliant throughout. Very clinical. Apart from Connolly they had very few cheap turnovers.

Ok you might have a point. But those who like intensity and drama will have the first game to watch ad nausem now.
And those who enjoy quality from play, and only five scores from placed balls between both teams will have yesterday's game - particularly the first half.

gormdubhgorm

jr86 wrote: »

7/8 bit part players maybe

Did Dublin even have any outfield starter over the age of 30 bar Mick Fitz?

S Cluxton; E Murchan, D Byrne, M Fitzsimons; J Cooper, J Small, J McCaffrey; B Fenton, J McCarthy; N Scully, C Kilkenny, B Howard; P Mannion, C O’Callaghan, D Rock.

Nope, but I would argue it is more than just the starting 15 at is required to win a game. It is a mistake that many make when looking at Dublin. The bench is an aging one. The panel is definitely not as strong.
In fact Jim Gavin made a point of namechecking young lads who did not make the panel. Which was nice of him in fairness. But most did not set pulse racing, O'Gara, Shields, McHugh. He also mentioned Bugler/McDaid who do look good in fairness.

rm75

average_runner wrote: »

I would question the refs fitness, so far behind play and missed two big decisions, the goal and a pen for Kerry near the end.

Still.think dublin would of won though

Meh this excessive fixation on refs is a bit much. He was fine, Con could have had a penalty in the 1st half but these things even out. No referee can possibly get every decision right but generally it evens out.

Dublin comfortably the better team and the refs impact was negligible. Quite frankly who cares about the ref people watch to see players.

JRant

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yet another who misses the point entirely. Whoosh.

Not at all. I know exactly what point you were trying to make. I just fundamentally disagree with it.

First up trying to compare football to basketball is lunacy. One is played on a huge field with 15 players, the other on a court about the same size as the penalty area with 7ft monsters all in an area you could throw a blanket over.

Dublin holding on to the ball is not the negative tactic, it's purely a function of this management team putting together a formula to nullify the blanket defense. If teams want to put 14 men behind the ball while behind on the scoreboard then have at it. If they want to get the ball back then they'll need to take a chance, similar to attacking teams having to take chances to score.

Seadin

average_runner wrote: »

I would question the refs fitness, so far behind play and missed two big decisions, the goal and a pen for Kerry near the end.

Still.think dublin would of won though

He does alot of running apparantely.

gormdubhgorm

Martina1991 wrote: »

Cillian O Connor is the top all time scorer, with plenty of football left in him. Andy Moran was player of the year at the age of 34.

People can call them every name under the sun, but they're pretty good individual rewards for any forward.

I am not falling for this all time top scorer stuff. When he gets huge hauls against the likes of London and New York.
Plus he is the freetaker.
The advent of the qualifiers super 8's meant more games for O'Connor so it has been skewed - compared to the Gooch forr example. Plus O'Connor has no real competition for his place since he started in 2011.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am not falling for this all time top scorer stuff. When he gets huge hauls against the likes of London and New York.
Plus he is the freetaker.

Compared to the might of Wicklow, Carlow, Meath, Louth etc, I'd say London & New York would give many a Leinster team a good game. Besides Cork its no different in Munster.

Also you can only play New York once every 5 years. His high scoring is hardly due to his high level of consistency and basically getting to the semi or Final for the past several years, and having to play alot more games than Kerry or Dublin to do it. Very naive to say that he has a high scoring rate because he gets to play New York.

corny

rm75 wrote: »

Meh this excessive fixation on refs is a bit much. He was fine, Con could have had a penalty in the 1st half but these things even out. No referee can possibly get every decision right but generally it evens out.

Dublin comfortably the better team and the refs impact was negligible. Quite frankly who cares about the ref people watch to see players.

I find this ambivalence incredibly stupid. People are fixated with refs, it evens out, blah blah blah ref can do no wrong. Its conciliatory but naive and wrong.

Watch the game, note the free count and watch how generally disciplined tackling from both sides brought out a different reaction in the referee. Arm over the shoulder. Watch how he dealt with it.

The_Kew_Tour

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes you're right, you don't get it

As always your posts make no sense and end in disappointment :pac:

Fr Tod Umptious

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am not falling for this all time top scorer stuff. When he gets huge hauls against the likes of London and New York.
Plus he is the freetaker.
The advent of the qualifiers super 8's meant more games for O'Connor so it has been skewed - compared to the Gooch forr example. Plus O'Connor has no real competition for his place since he started in 2011.

You should really check the facts about how often Cillian O'Connor has played against NY or London.

Mayo get to play London once and NY once in a 5 year cycle.

Far less than other teams get the chance to beat up on Clare, Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Wicklow, Louth, Longford etc year on year.

Martina1991

gormdubhgorm wrote:

I am not falling for this all time top scorer stuff. When he gets huge hauls against the likes of London and New York. Plus he is the freetaker. The advent of the qualifiers super 8's meant more games for O'Connor so it has been skewed - compared to the Gooch forr example. Plus O'Connor has no real competition for his place since he started in 2011.

As others have just said Mayo play London and New York every 5 years.

I was replying to someone who said Mayo didn't have as good forwards as SOS, Geaney and Clifford.

OConnor was also out for a full year due to injury.
This year was the 1st year Mayo were in the super 8s so that doesn't help your point either.

Slattsy

Cillain O'Connor won't be remembered for his footballing abilities in ten or twenty years.

That's all that's needs to be said about that particular chap.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

Compared to the might of Wicklow, Carlow, Meath, Louth etc, I'd say London & New York would give many a Leinster team a good game. Besides Cork its no different in Munster.

Also you can only play New York once every 5 years. His high scoring is hardly due to his high level of consistency and basically getting to the semi or Final for the past several years, and having to play alot more games than Kerry or Dublin to do it. Very naive to say that he has a high scoring rate because he gets to play New York.

Not really because London is there as well.
Also O'Connor has played in a lot a qualifiers which pushed up his number of games. Mayo were knocked out early in Connacht a few times recently.
It only stands to reason that the quality of opposition is even lower in the qualifiers leading to more scores.
Plus as I said what real competition does O'Connor have to his freetaking.
It is pure massaging of the stats.

Even this year there was a tussle between Rock and Costello as Dublin's starting freetaker. That has not happened for years in Mayo. Maybe Mortimer and McDonald?
Kerry have O'Shea, Clifford etc

I would like to see a breakdown of O'Connor's scores from play and who they were scored against.

awaywithyou

Bonniedog wrote: »

What a ridiculous posting:

"Kerry... will be even better."

Let's be honest here. The only team that came close to stopping Dublin in the five was Mayo.

Mayo wouldnt stop a cow going out a gap

jr86

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Compared to the might of Wicklow, Carlow, Meath, Louth etc, I'd say London & New York would give many a Leinster team a good game. Besides Cork its no different in Munster.

Also you can only play New York once every 5 years. His high scoring is hardly due to his high level of consistency and basically getting to the semi or Final for the past several years, and having to play alot more games than Kerry or Dublin to do it. Very naive to say that he has a high scoring rate because he gets to play New York.

Ha so true - think O'Connor has only played New York once?

JRant

I'm pretty sure St Cillian of the elbows O'Connor wasn't playing yesterday lads and had little to no impact on the entire championship.

RedDevil55

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not really because London is there as well.
Also O'Connor has played in a lot a qualifiers which pushed up his number of games. Mayo were knocked out early in Connacht a few times recently.
It only stands to reason that the quality of opposition is even lower in the qualifiers leading to more scores.
Plus as I said what real competition does O'Connor have to his freetaking.
It is pure massaging of the stats.

Even this year there was a tussle between Rock and Costello as Dublin's starting freetaker. That has not happened for years in Mayo. Maybe Mortimer and McDonald?
Kerry have O'Shea, Clifford etc

I would like to see a breakdown of O'Connor's scores from play and who they were scored against.

There was an article in the mayo news showing that Cillian's scoring rate increases from the quarter finals onwards. He didn't play against New York this year. The only championship game he failed to score in was vs London in 2016 (black carded in 1st half). Cillian missed most of the qualifiers this year in case anyone has forgotten. Only played round 4 against div 1 side Galway. Gooch also played in numerous qualifiers.

Anyway I'm not comparing players just pointing that out.

gormdubhgorm

jr86 wrote: »

Ha so true - think O'Connor has only played New York once?

OK look at the games where he scored hattricks of goals.

He scored 3-3 against London in a Connaght final 2013
He got 3 goals against Donegal in the AI QF 2013 v Donegal
3 goals against Limerick in 2018.

The only one that seems impressive there for me the Donegal one.


Now factor in the competition he has for free-taking contrasted against the other top counties
Dublin, Kerry, Donegal. Tyrone
It is just not the same.

gormdubhgorm

JRant wrote: »

I'm pretty sure St Cillian of the elbows O'Connor wasn't playing yesterday lads and had little to no impact on the entire championship.

That O'Shea fella for Kerry will beat O'Connor easy at the rate he is going.
Never seems to power them as well.
Reminds me of Byran Sheehan.

Fr Tod Umptious

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not really because London is there as well.
Also O'Connor has played in a lot a qualifiers which pushed up his number of games. Mayo were knocked out early in Connacht a few times recently.
It only stands to reason that the quality of opposition is even lower in the qualifiers leading to more scores.
Plus as I said what real competition does O'Connor have to his freetaking.
It is pure massaging of the stats.

Even this year there was a tussle between Rock and Costello as Dublin's starting freetaker. That has not happened for years in Mayo. Maybe Mortimer and McDonald?
Kerry have O'Shea, Clifford etc

I would like to see a breakdown of O'Connor's scores from play and who they were scored against.

Some things here for you to read, make of it what you will.
https://www.mayonews.ie/sports/34001-cillian-o-connor-makes-gaa-history

This was up to and including the Kerry game this year when he broke the record.

70% from placed balls
Highest average (of teams he has played more than once) is 8.4 v Dublin.
Got to the record with 30 games to spare over Cooper (and don't tell me Copper did not go deep in the championship, if I recall Kerry even went back door in 2002, 2006, and 2009 at least)

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK look at the games where he scored hattricks of goals.

He scored 3-3 against London in a Connaght final 2013
He got 3 goals against Donegal in the AI QF 2013 v Donegal
3 goals against Limerick in 2018.

The only one that seems impressive there for me the Donegal one.


Now factor in the competition he has for free-taking contrasted against the other top counties
Dublin, Kerry, Donegal. Tyrone
It is just not the same.

You are really stretching it now. Kerry get to play Limerick every other year, Gooch must of been scoring 3 goals against them every time he played them if its so easy. SOS will likely surpass him at some point, but he is only 27 yet. You should give credit where it is deserved, he is a consistent high scorer for several years.

Fr Tod Umptious

What ever about Cillian O' Connor who had nothing to do with last night, the poor shooting return from what is supposed to be the best forwards in the country in both final games should not be ignored.

It was called on on dontfoul before the last game, Kerry's inside shooting performance is poor.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

You are really stretching it now. Kerry get to play Limerick every other year, Gooch must of been scoring 3 goals against them every time he played them if its so easy??

Maybe he did I don't know. But when there is only one top dog forward everything has to go through the one fella - frees the lot.

Kerry have had loads of them so it is an unfair comparison when one fella hogs the frees - like in Mayo's case.

If anything when playing Dublin I would be worried if Keegan or McLoughin got the ball. O'Connor never seemed to be the danger from an opponents points of view. Mostly only saw him when a free was awarded. Not only that he missed the real crunch ones more often than not.

O'Connor's equaliser from play in the 2016 draw final seems like more an exception rather than the rule.

Happyilylost

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

What ever about Cillian O' Connor who had nothing to do with last night, the poor shooting return from what is supposed to be the best forwards in the country in both final games should not be ignored.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

It was called on on dontfoul before the last game, Kerry's inside shooting performance is poor.

I'm not sure that's fair analysis. Clifford and Geaney must of had eight or nine points between them from play? Poor Kerry shooting for me seemed to be panic when players shot who shouldn't be shooting. Moran must of had three. O Sullivan, Barry I think shot ones too. One thing Dublin are phenomenal at is recycling the ball till a marksman is on the ball or creating an open that is a tap over for a lesser player. Kerrys inside forwards weren't the losing of the game.

RedDevil55

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Maybe he did I don't know. But when there is only one top dog forward everything has to go through the one fella - frees the lot.

Kerry have had loads of them so it is an unfair comparison when one fella hogs the frees - like in Mayo's case.

If anything when playing Dublin I would be worried if Keegan or McLoughin got the ball. O'Connor never seemed to be the danger from an opponents points of view. Mostly only saw him when a free was awarded. Not only that he missed the real crunch ones more often than not.

O'Connor's equaliser from play in the 2016 draw final seems like more an exception rather than the rule.

I would consider Andy Moran a "top dog" forward, but maybe that's just me.

Cillian got 3 points from play in the 2017 final, 2 of which were in the last 10 minutes. Has got big scores (points and goals) from play against Kerry over the years too. Also, as you pointed out yourself, a hat trick against the all Ireland champions Donegal in 2013. People rarely notice the number of assists he gets either. Think he set up 4 points from play against Donegal in the super 8s.

PressRun

RedDevil55 wrote: »

I would consider Andy Moran a "top dog" forward, but maybe that's just me.

Cillian got 3 points from play in the 2017 final, 2 of which were in the last 10 minutes. Has got big scores (points and goals) from play against Kerry over the years too. Also, as you pointed out yourself, a hat trick against the all Ireland champions Donegal in 2013. People rarely notice the number of assists he gets either. Think he set up 4 points from play against Donegal in the super 8s.

This is something people don't pay attention to at all when it comes to him. He's involved in everything, setting up scores and playing others into scoring positions. Say whatever you want about his temperment, but he's a smart man and reads the game well. Mayo are poorer when he's not there.

Not even sure how this turned into a discussion about Cillian O'Connor anyway. People trying to argue with facts again.