Replay: All Ireland SFC Final Dublin v Kerry Saturday 14/09/2019 @ 6pm

Strumms

TheCitizen wrote: »

Nope I do have point and it's not an anti Dublin thing at all, that's just you trying to make out that it is. No need to be so touchy a chara, just giving an observation from a neutral perspective.

Not touchy, just enjoying the debate and debunking your myth about possession, advantages etc..

A score every 3.7 minutes by the Dubs over the 70. VERY entertaining. :cool:

MfMan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I honestly think Kerry are not just next years team but the team for the next five years.
The 2011 Dublin crop Cluxton, Fitzsimons, O'Sullivan, Brogan, McMahon. MacCauley, McManamon, O'Carroll, O'Gara, Connolly they will all be gone either next year or soon after.
That is a lot of experience to lose from a panel.
The Dublin panel will definitely not be as strong in the coming years.
If this current Kerry team stays together the sky is the limit for them and I would not be surprised if they won a three in a row AI's or more.

Of these, Cluxton as goalie can go for another few seasons I'd imagine if he wants. For the rest, Fitzsimons and maybe O'Sullivan are first teamers, the rest are mainly only squad players at this stage. Dublin's big players, McCaffrey, Fenton, Howard, KK, O'Callaghan, Mannion, McCarthy are still near enough in their prime and good enough to be able to blend in other players around.

As I posted earlier, wouldn't be overly-optimistic for this Kerry team yet. Their defence isn't fully secure or settled, and I thought the goalie was poor for the goals he conceded in the finals. Paul Murphy and David Moran are in the later years of their careers, and Stephen O'Brien maybe also (he seemed to think he was under some obligation to win the match on his own yesterday). Spillanes are only middling, as is Gavin White. It's hard to think that Clifford and O'Shea won't win an AI at some stage in their future but I think they need a better influx around them yet.

TheCitizen

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah that is a part people seem to be missing Dublin can mix and match thier styles. Bring subtlety in where needed.
I find those who negatively critique any period of possession in a game are those who favour the crash, bang wallop style of football. Catch and kick only. If Dublin played like that yesterday they would have played into Kerry's hands. The game has evolved to another level, movement angles probing
Quick change of speed from slow to fast back to slow etc.
Yet we do still see some great kick passes like Connolly's, as well as the skills to keep the ball - take the sting out of a game - make sure the ball gets to the main Dublin scorers. How many wides did Dublin hit yesterday?

Some traditionalists do not seem willing to accept that the game has evolved and improved - like Mick O'Connell who refuses to call it Gaelic football. He says he just calls it 'Gaelic' now.

Also people seem to forget that the keep ball evolved to counteract Jim McGuinness Dongeal tactic. So the ball would not be brought into the tackle and shot is only take when the player is in the D or around it.

You're half right there. The game has evolved alright but it hasn't improved not as a spectacle at any rate. A game being over and done with with 25 minutes left on the clock but not a huge margin on the scoreline has little to attract neutral spectators.

tastyt

Probably one of the most entertaining years of football in a while but because Dublin won now people want to change the rules dramatically.

I wonder if Kerry had won the first drawn match would anybody be talking about a shot clock?

If anything, this year has made me optimistic about others challenging Dublin, they look like they are slowing down and that Kerry team, with a little more composure and experience will definitely go toe to toe with them over the next few years

TheCitizen

Strumms wrote: »

Not touchy, just enjoying the debate and debunking your myth about possession, advantages etc..

A score every 3.7 minutes by the Dubs over the 70. VERY entertaining. :cool:

Entertaining for Dublin fans, of course they just want their team to win naturally. For neutral observers of any game you nee end to end action. Dublin's tippy tappy style suits them but it's not very attractive for neutrals.

jr86

equivariant wrote: »

Kerry v donegal, mayo v donegal, Kerry v cork, Kerry v meath, 1st half of Dublin-mayo (since we are counting halves) and I'm sure there were some good matches in Ulster that I didn't see.

Regarding contenders Galway and Mayo both have potential to beat Dublin if things go well. At least as much as Tyrone do anyway imo.

When has there ever been more than 3/4 real contenders for the AI anyway.

The real issue is the moribund state of Leinster. Dublin have been run close on several occasions outside Leinster by mayo and kerry. But the fact that they dont even have to try until the super 8 is a big advantage.

Well mayo haven't beaten Dublin in champ now in 7 tries and are well on the decline. Galway are way off Dublin

Still think it'll be years before Dublin are bet. Fine Kerry could well have won the first day, but Dublin were well in control before the sending off. Kerry never led once all game yesterday

C__MC

I didnt think it was a great year for football
Bar the drawn game; where Dublin under pressure?

The re emergence of Kerry and mayo always helps but let's not fool ourselves.
The media love that narrative.

3 provincials finals where a cake walk, Tyrone, galway, Monaghan, donegal all under performed as did kildare.

Dublin are a good bit ahead, they have won the last two finals by 6- between 2008 and 17, all finals had a one score difference.

I might add like the hurling calendar, stand alone weekends for semis and third Sunday in September as final date

Strumms

Thing about Cluxton is.. I could see him sticking around for another year although looking at his body language yesterday there did seem to be an element of goodbye which I read into his celebrations but of course I could be misreading that... what I do know is the air to his throne Evan Comerford is an amazing young goalkeeper with ability to burn, with a calm temperament, cool head, sublime physicality, a tonne of ability and all at the tender age of 21.

Mad to think with probably the best goalkeeper the sport has produced, a sublime shot stopper, leader and character not far from retirement you can look at the bench with ultimate confidence and say.. “yeah, could be an even better one here”.

Masala

Reminds me of seeing this link last year......

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/watch-schools-match-finished-farcical-circumstances-406639

Imagine sitting thru that....

gormdubhgorm

TheCitizen wrote: »

You're half right there. The game has evolved alright but it hasn't improved not as a spectacle at any rate. A game being over and done with with 25 minutes left on the cock but not a huge margin on the scoreline has little to attract neutral spectators.

25 minutes is a good amount left for the cock for most people

If you look at the game life the movement of players is what you should be watching. It takes skill to to keep the ball and move the ball around players.
To find the angles.
I appreciate those who are not watching the game in the ground cannot see this as TV gives a false impression it just zones in on the fella with ball.
I don't find it boring at all I have grown to appreciate it.

If you remember there was a period where the Kerry fans were booing Dublin's possession. They probed kept possession for while, change of pace surge forward bang over the bar. That is efficiency and intelligent football.

If you brought in a 30/40 second shot clock for example - teams would just funnel even more players back in the D and try to force a shot.
The 'spectacle' would be even worse from your perspective then.

The_Kew_Tour

Well done to the ref too. Got all the big calls right and was very fair to both sides

sk9

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Well done to the ref too. Got all the big calls right and was very fair to both sides

I thought he had a decent game, let a lot more go than Gough who couldn't keep the whistle out of his mouth.

Seeing a lot of people disagree with that though. People will give out about anything

TheCitizen

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

25 minutes is a good amount left for the cock for most people

There'd be a fair bit more of slow slow than quick quick involved:pac:

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If you look at the game life the movement of players is what you should be watching. It takes skill to to keep the ball and move the ball around players.
To find the angles.
I appreciate those who are not watching the game in the ground cannot see this as TV gives a false impression it just zones in on the fella with ball.
I don't find it boring at all I have grown to appreciate it.

If you remember there was a period where the Kerry fans were booing Dublin's possession. They probed kept possession for while, change of pace surge forward bang over the bar. That is efficiency and intelligent football.

If you brought in a 30/40 second shot clock for example - teams would just funnel even more players back in the D and try to force a shot.
The 'spectacle' would be even worse from your perspective then.

Dublin are playing it perfectly. My point is when others copy Dublin, and they will, then you've got a problem.

The_Kew_Tour

TheCitizen wrote: »

Entertaining for Dublin fans, of course they just want their team to win naturally. For neutral observers of any game you nee end to end action. Dublin's tippy tappy style suits them but it's not very attractive for neutrals.

I don't get this. Kerry put all the men behind the ball, but its Dublin tippy tappy stuff you are worried about.

Why didnt Dublin just handpass every ball to the Kerry lads next.......

gormdubhgorm

C__MC wrote: »

I didnt think it was a great year for football
Bar the drawn game; where Dublin under pressure?

The re emergence of Kerry and mayo always helps but let's not fool ourselves.
The media love that narrative.

3 provincials finals where a cake walk, Tyrone, galway, Monaghan, donegal all under performed as did kildare.

Dublin are a good bit ahead, they have won the last two finals by 6- between 2008 and 17, all finals had a one score difference.

I might add like the hurling calendar, stand alone weekends for semis and third Sunday in September as final date

You seem to have left out Donegal and Kerry.
Also the Super 8's has aided the development of Cork/Meath/Roscommon.
They will be all the better for it.
You mention the scoring difference is that a real indicator of an increase in standard? To me it does not show the ebb and flow of a game. It is a false flag.
Both teams attacked in the last two games.
In the last days game Kerry fought back to two points again.
The game was in the melting pot for long periods.
Kerry did not take thier goal chances when they presented themselves - again.
Kerry also hit a lot of sloppy wides or took the wrong option.

In 2018 Tyrone were stuck in the one method of playing and Dublin had a work around, they had it cracked.
It involved skill, movement and patience and always taking the percentage shot.
The game would have been a lot closer if Tyrone varied thier style of play, and moved from thier intransigent system now and again.
There were periods in the 2018 final where most of the the Tyrone team were standing in thier own half looking at Dublin keep the ball while they needed scores! It was a poor effort on the sideline from Micky Harte.

TheCitizen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I don't get this. Kerry put all the men behind the ball, but its Dublin tippy tappy stuff you are worried about.

Why didnt Dublin just handpass every ball to the Kerry lads next.......

Yes you're right, you don't get it

Trey13

Serious doomsday stuff from so called neutrals here. At the end of the day about 7/8 of the Dublin players are coming to the end of their intercounty careers and when they go there will be a massive dip in performance from Dublin

Doctors room ghost

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

I think that the retailers of Dublin would make a complaint as it would impact on their biggest day of trade.[/quote



It was scheduled for 6 because of horse and dogs racing in Dublin yesterday and that time was proposed for traffic management by the council and guards.
It was in the independent during the week

gormdubhgorm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Dublin are laying it perfectly. My point is when others copy Dublin, and they will, then you've got a problem.

I would argue that is a good thing teams will work more on movement and patterns of play.
Dublin do not just play keep ball all the time. If they did they would just be like Tyrone and only reach a certain level.

Watching the game yesterday yes there were periods of 'tippy tappy' but there were also kick passes where required to break quickly - Connolly. Surges forward when the chance arose - Murchan.
It is very easy to just zone in on the one aspect of play 'tippy tappy' as you call it.
It takes skill to exeute it and not every team will have the quality to do so at such a high level.
I find that most of the people who cannot stand the 'tippy tappy' stuff are those who do not understand movement, dragging players out of position etc. Most of those who hate the sight of it are kick and catch traditionalists or hurling snobs who use it as a stick to beat football with.
Also I have heard comments that it is like soccer (ajax, barcelona style) I can understand how some GAA diehards do not like this. They prefer the lamp it up to big man no messing. Which is nonsensical if that is the sole tactic.
It will only get teams so far.

But to me Gaelic football has taken tactics from Rugby league/Basketball the positioning and movement and moved the game on to another level.
That is just the way sport goes.
There is still a place for the traditional 'kick and catch' as Corofin have shown The problem is trying to implement a strategy and plan to play to the strengths of a team, and the weaknesses of the opponent - regardless of style.

Seadin

TheCitizen wrote: »

Holding the ball with a couple of minutes left is natural. Holding the ball with 25 minutes left kills the game for spectators, for TV companies. Contrast with hurling which is a brilliant end to end game. Gaelic Football just mimicking soccer isn’t the way to go if they care about the game being attractive for viewers and supporters.

Dublin dont care if they are boring the spectators with passing the ball around the pitch for 3 mins. They play it whatever way they want once its within the rules. Like i said earlier its up to the opposition to tight mark them and make that process difficult. We cant be having those excuses. Its up to the opposition to press up and mark them tight and make them make a mistake.

TheCitizen

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I would argue that is a good thing teams will work more on movement and patterns of play.
Dublin do not just play keep ball all the time. If they did they would just be like Tyrone and only reach a certain level.

Watching the game yesterday yes there were periods of 'tippy tappy' but there were also kick passes where required to break quickly - Connolly. Surges forward when the chance arose - Murchan.
It is very easy to just zone in on the one aspect of play 'tippy tappy' as you call it.
It takes skill to exeute it and not every team will have the quality to do so at such a high level.
I find that most of the people who cannot stand the 'tippy tappy' stuff are those who do not understand movement, dragging players out of position etc. Most of those who hate the sight of it are kick and catch traditionalists or hurling snobs who use it as a stick to beat dublin with.
Also I have heard comments that it is like soccer (ajax, barcelona style) I can understand how some GAA diehards do not like this. They prefer the lamp it up to big man no messing. Which is nonsensical if that is the sole tactic.
It will only get teams so far.

But to me Gaelic football has taken tactics from Rugby league/Basketball the positioning and movement and moved the game on to another level.
That is just the way sport goes.
There is still a place for the traditional 'kick and catch' as Corofin have shown The problem is trying to implement a strategy and plan to play to the strengths of a team, and the weaknesses of the opponent - regardless of style.

To me it looks like soccer and I'm a soccer supporter primarily. To me it looks like soccer plus you can use your hands, handpass and catch the ball and kick points when you get close enough.

You can still have elements of possession and passing football but with a stop clock it will just need to be done quicker and then there'll be more turnover of possession and counter attacking opportunities catching the opponent under pressure as the clock runs out.

Just means there'd be a better chance of the ball being at both ends of the field more often. Of course it could backfire and if it does throw it out but I think they should trial it.

gormdubhgorm

Seadin wrote: »

Dublin dont care if they are boring the spectators with passing the ball around the pitch for 3 mins. They play it whatever way they want once its within the rules. Like i said earlier its up to the opposition to tight mark them and make that process difficult. We cant be having those excuses. Its up to the opposition to press up and mark them tight and make them make a mistake.

Exactly, if a team are a few points up and fellas are standing off - wouldn't that team be fierce eejits to decide to lamp the ball and lose possession?
It does not make any sense.

It reminds me of this commentary from midwest radio 2017 all-ireland final - Dublin v Mayo

@1:43 "Dublin are playing keep ball now. They don't care what they do"

average_runner

I would question the refs fitness, so far behind play and missed two big decisions, the goal and a pen for Kerry near the end.

Still.think dublin would of won though

TrueGael

Basketball was played for a long time before 1954 when the shot clock was introduced as teams just incessantly passed around and attendances declined as it was an eyesore

Strumms

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

@1:43 "Dublin are playing keep ball now. They don't care what they do"

:pac:

No, they don’t care what they do, with being a point up and the dying moments of the championship they should boot the ball which they have comfortable possession of up in the air, enabling the opposition to have a 50/50 opportunity to reclaim possession and equalize :pac:

aodomhnaill

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly, if a team are a few points up and fellas are standing off - wouldn't that team be fierce eejits to decide to lamp the ball and lose possession?
It does not make any sense.

Precisely what Connolly did in 2016 when he ripped the sideline ball off Kilkenny when the game was in the bag, resulting in an equalising point for Mayo.

I'm at a loss as to why this is even being discussed any way, a team that scored 1-18 and there are people suggesting they played keep ball for long periods. They played it temporarily twice in the game when Kerry had 14 lads behind the ball. Criticism should be directed at Kerry for reducing themselves to this style of play...which totally failed.

corny

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Well done to the ref too. Got all the big calls right and was very fair to both sides

Astonished anyone could think that given the lob sided free count in favour of Kerry.

Dragging and pulling were penalised for one team only. Nothing fair about it.

gormdubhgorm

TrueGael wrote: »

Basketball was played for a long time before 1954 when the shot clock was introduced as teams just incessantly passed around and attendances declined as it was an eyesore

The irony is the last two games between Kerry and Dublin will go down as classics and will eulogised about for years.
I think it will be seen as the start of a golden age for gaelic football a new era in it's development. People will have gotten used to variations in style of play.

In twenty years time they might even have programmes with teams actual formations rather than the 1-15 the traditionalists hang on to.

Strumms

sk9 wrote: »

I thought he had a decent game, let a lot more go than Gough who couldn't keep the whistle out of his mouth.

Seeing a lot of people disagree with that though. People will give out about anything

He was a serious upgrade on Gough who had a very poor first game, a blight on the occasion Mr happy whistle or mr ‘I’ll even it up’.

Lane was the opposite, actually added to a seriously sporting occasion and deserves a lot of credit for his performance after the disaster Gough had.

gormdubhgorm

aodomhnaill wrote: »

Precisely what Connolly did in 2016 when he ripped the sideline ball off Kilkenny when the game was in the bag, resulting in an equalising point for Mayo.

I'm at a loss as to why this is even being discussed any way, a team that scored 1-18 and there are people suggesting they played keep ball for long periods. They played it temporarily twice in the game when Kerry had 14 lads behind the ball. Criticism should be directed at Kerry for reducing themselves to this style of play...which totally failed.

Plus there is the fact that the majority of Dublin's scores came from play only one was a placed ball. Kerry only had four scores from placed balls.

SCORERS - Dublin: C Kilkenny, P Mannion, C O’Callaghan 0-4 each, E Murchan 1-0, D Rock 0-3 (0-1 ‘45’), D Byrne, N Scully, J McCarthy 0-1 each. Kerry: D Clifford (0-1f), S O’Shea (0-3f) 0-5 each, P Geaney 0-4, A Spillane 0-1.

I don't know what game people are watching, if they think it is only keep ball and boring.