VW ID.4

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935368#Comment_121935368

And that's what I do and it's fine generally - I bought the car knowing and understanding the limitations. Sometimes it's annoying though and it's almost always expensive.

Like it or not range is the key feature people look at when buying an EV and supplied batteries have not progressed to the point where increased capacity is not desirable.

Knowing this, I find it hard to understand why VW have not used an improved chemistry in their batteries. It looks to me that they are sweating the existing MEB platform for everything it's worth and not innovating with it. Without a larger battery, I find it hard to see a reason to trade up years just yet - the difference between old and new is not enough. If the refresh had a larger battery, I'd think differently.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935088#Comment_121935088

Battery chemistry has come on since MEB was launched but no change for VW.

Has it really? Maybe some tweaks here and there but nothing too fundamental I'd say.

The key spec for an EV is it's range and the revised ID4 should be shipping with 100kwh at least as an option. 

Is there a pack out there from other manufacturers in a production car, that can go to 100kWh without being a ridiculous weight?

What does seem to have changed is the cost to manufacture and that appears to be filtering down with the price reductions but that doesnt mean you can just ram more modules into the car. The weight becomes a problem.

e.g. The ID.3 Tour (77kWh battery) is restricted to a 4 seater because of the weight.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937100#Comment_121937100

Space as well, the 77kWh pack is already full of batteries. Only ways to fit more is denser cells or redesign the whole pack

Looking the the teardown videos there's a lot of potential weight savings, however VW will probably only do that on the next platform

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934662#Comment_121934662

I agree, range needs to improve substantially and recharge times because even though the 77 Kwh can charge at 130 Kw max you have to be plugged in at 10% or less to achieve it, plug in at 20-30% and more and you get 60 kw max.

Diesel has range of up to 900 Kms we take the outlander on longer trips, I'm just not into the hassle any more and the lack of high power chargers especially away from the East and motorways. + you can buy HBO100 and drive around probably more eco friendly than any EV due to the battery production from start to finish.

Here's a good one, to drive 900 kms with an average EV efficiency of around 20 Kwh/100 Kms you would need 180 usable Kwh of battery, my 82 Kwh hatchback weighs 2 Tonne and you really notice it, I drove my Mothers 2010 1.4 Petrol fiesta at the weekend and immediately noticed it was a lot more fun on the road probably due to to it being much lighter.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934354#Comment_121934354

There's not really, and probably no compelling reason to buy any EV except to same some money on fuel with the availability of HVO 100 , the tables have turned and 100% renewable energy is probably far cleaner than making batteries.

Maybe the id4 has a bit better interior but the id3 is very poor and the infotainment in the id cars in general is crap, having to go to menus to access basic stuff, but a lot of cars be they ev or ICE are following suit with similar results and many complaints on the internet.

The value of my 41 K id3 has taken a huge hit, last year I was quoted 30 K trade in, this year with 75K Kms and 3 years old in October I'd be lucky to see 25K, In fact I bet they will offer me less as they just won't want to trade it to begin with, never again, got burned 3 times on trade in on electric, range still needs improving and recharge time absolutely need to improve, but infrastructure is a joke still, I'd nearly go back to diesel now that I discovered HVO100 Diesel is compatible with existing diesel engines and I can't wait to try it in the Outlander,

I might have no choice to change for 2 reasons, the interior, infotainment drives me nuts in the id3 and while there is still some worth in the car but by the time the finance is paid off I will probably be left with nothing to trade, in other words I'd be just giving the car back or just have to suffer and keep it. I will have to wait until October probably after the PCP.

We still take the outlander on longer trips anyway so I'd rather have a nicer car to drive the long distances to anywhere I want and back without all the crap.

Here's another situation, if I've 24 K left on the car now and 18 after PCP which is the balloon and they give me 25 K I will be left with only 7 K equity. After 3 years.

PCP really is only for people who drive 5-10 K kms a year. Don't think I will go pcp again in fact I'm done wasting my money on cars in general because by the time I add up paying for cars since 2015 I'll probably have spent 70 odd k so it has to end but I have no hesitation now buying a car for 10K diesel and running HBO100, I like that idea.

Sorry, rambling, thinking out loud sorry maybe not the time or place.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937432#Comment_121937432

I couldn't drive a heavier car, you really feel it especially coming to a stop hard.......2 tonne hatch ffs.

fits

HVO is a red herring for passenger vehicles. It’s also very difficult to ensure that virgin palm oil isn’t getting into it.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935580#Comment_121935580

It’s a small refresh. It’s not really an old v new. I think lowering the price is better than sticking in a larger battery

Mr Q

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937532#Comment_121937532

I think HVO takes about one hectare to produce 1,000 litre's of fuel. For my driving it would take 15,000sqm of land do produce that for one year.

Or 20sqm of solar panels to power an EV the same distance.

HVO is not the way to go.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937803#Comment_121937803

Absolutely agree, the prices needed to come down and IMO they still need to go down further. The 52kWh should be €35k after grant

If they could get the 77kWh below €40k then it'd be a much better proposition IMO

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937100#Comment_121937100

Zeekr 007 is shipping with 100kwh battery as is the polestar 4 shortly - they both use catl qilin batteries. Nio, of which I understand VW is an investor will be offering 150kwh as an option from July with their new battery.

I own an ID4 and I'm quite happy with it. Of course I'd like something newer and better but all I'm saying is I don't see a compelling reason to trade up. If the refresh had offered the option to have a better battery - even an extra 10kwh or a chemistry that can handle being left at 100% that would encourage me personally to trade. As it stands, it's just a minor refresh and simply not worth it.

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937972#Comment_121937972

How does the new 77 pro plus compare to the new Tiguan price and spec wise?

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937532#Comment_121937532

How much money did you save on fuel in that time do you think?

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121938111#Comment_121938111

I hadnt really looked at a Zeekr before. They seem well spec'd alright.

I was looking to find out what weight the two of them were and neither website lists the kerb weight!

A bit of googling later on https://ev-database.org/

ID.4: 2156 kg (77kWh usable, 435km, 4584 mm x 1852 mm)

Zeekr: 2275 kg (94kWh, 525km, 4955 mm x 1999 mm)

Polestar 4: 2232 kg (94kWh, 495km, 4839 mm x 2008 mm)

So, they are both a little heavier (~100kg) but they are a good bit longer and wider than an ID.4 and thats not a small car!

Its a tradeoff I guess. The battery tech doesnt seem to be that different. You simply need a bigger car and more weight and then you can throw more kWh at it.

One interesting thing though is that the ID.7 seems to have gone that route so MEB can do it!

ID.7: 2250 kg (86kWh usable, 520km, 4961 mm x 1862 mm)

but all I'm saying is I don't see a compelling reason to trade up.

Yes, I get you. When shelling out the money you want to be hopping into something better. Not just the same thing with a new smell and a different plate!

Personally, I'd prefer if they dropped the prices more rather than throwing more kWh in and making them heavier.

prawnsambo

Newer battery technologies may well address the weight and charging issues. Graphene Aluminium ion batteries are being developed by GMG in Australia, and if their tests on 1000mAh pouches work out, you could be looking at a cell with no thermal management requirements, faster charging and much longer lasting than conventional lithium ion. Tests on coin cells have recorded charge times up to 60 times faster than Li. Also much more stable and safer with no fire risk.

id.4 fan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121924983#Comment_121924983

Very surprised a car with 60k would need new break seals never mind a new grear shifter!

I think the newer model ID.4’s come with an upgraded shifter, maybe this is why.

i had the exact same problem you described, car threw up a random electric drive motor error that quickly disappeared at 65k.

I ran an OBD11 scan straight after and saw several drive motor faults.

Brought it to dealer to check out but didn’t mention I ran a fault check and they said they couldn’t find any fault codes on the car.

Send fault history file to OBD11 tech staff to investigate the discrepancies who then confirmed the faults were legit and reassured me they are Licences by VW and are official partners of the VAG group.

Went back to the dealer this time with a printed fault list who still maintained there were no issues with the car. Got the car back 3 days later working perfect and all drive motor faults gone!

Car has been driving 100% for the past 3 weeks.

i found they very odd on the dealers behalf and left me doubting them very much so.

Oddly enough I just got an update notification stating my car needs a “drive update”

Has anyone else received this update?

prawnsambo

Good to know you'll only feel like a jerk briefly. 😂

I'll get me coat...

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937838#Comment_121937838

Absolutely, correct.

we were looking at as a possible fuel source for a power plant. And it’s. It practically at all for main stream

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937838#Comment_121937838

That entirely depends on the source, cetra uses 100% renewable waste plant matter and hydrogen, no land is used, it's using waste.

Using palm trees is another matter, but cetra don't sue palm trees.

To be honest I'd 100% bet using waste plant based material is 100% greener than using batteries made from minerals shipped all over the world with all the chemicals uses, hard manual labour in the Congo and mass destruction to land and contaminated vast quantities of fresh water in the production of lithium to be then shipped to China and we know their track record in environmentally friendliness.

Circke K use the same sources for their HVO100.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121938579#Comment_121938579

Well lets, see now, For the first 1 year 3 months I would have received a lot of work Kwh so I would have paid a lot less for driving in that time.

Since Feb 2023 I have been doing a lot of remote work and I changed jobs recently too so travel to site won't be frequent and while I will still have charging on site I won't have to be there all day, I can just do my work and return home again so I won't be getting more than about 40% charge maybe but it will probably mean that trip to site will cost me half. I'll probably be visiting site once a week or every couple of weeks, hard to know yet.

I worked it out that it costs half vs a diesel that averages 5.5 l/Kms at current prices. I'm paying a lot more now for electricity so the gap is a lot narrower, However, depreciation has been pretty large, quoted 30 K trade in last year bound to be 25 K now if I checked around, this is from a main dealer, I know from experience a non VW dealer will give me a lot less because they won't want to have anything to do with the car they are probably not trained to fix if something goes wrong or they have to pay VW to get it fixed and the 3 year warranty expires in October.

As it stands now, if I were to do it again there's absolutely no way I will save any money on EV over an older Diesel car with the mileage I'm doing now especially. In fact the diesel is probably a no brainer.

In October I have to pay 18K balloon to own the id3 but if I go to trade it in for anything be it EV or Diesel they might give me 25K and that's probably being generous. even if I have 7K Equity I won't be tempted to buy another EV but I will look out for older diesel, 2-3 years old that has a proper ergonomic interior and run it on HVO100. That is what I'm thinking right now but that could change but change means keeping the id3 another while maybe.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939018#Comment_121939018

There’s a limited amount of waste available. If everyone switched to HVO we’d kiss good bye to orangatans , chimps and rainforests.

id.4 fan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121933235#Comment_121933235

Can you send me a link to the site you can get your car data compiled from please?

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939166#Comment_121939166

A little dramatic ?

We don't get our HVO100 from rainforest or palm trees, not in Ireland.

Whatever quantities they can make from several companies it's better to use it that see it go to waste.

Even if we used some land in Ireland for biofuels it's no bad thing, we have plenty of land and no forest anyway so might as well put it to use if the E.U are so hell bent on forcing us to cut the national dairy herd and probably other livestock.

Currently though HVO100 is coming from waste oil and waste food product.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939153#Comment_121939153

PCP complicates things like depreciation and value. You probably had low repayments compared to HP for the same car. Calculate the payments less interest and you will see how little of the value of the car you paid. The balloon payment is that reality coming home to bite. Basically you don't come close to owning the car after the term of the PCP deal is up. That's why people end up stuck on the PCP hamster wheel forever. Getting off it will cost you.

micks_address

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121938129#Comment_121938129

I'm wondering that two. If I could get 100km on battery that would cover any commute and short journeys i do and let the engine take the worry out of long trips

micks_address

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939518#Comment_121939518

From the VW website doesn't look like they bringing the phev here?

pad199207

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939546#Comment_121939546

Not till the end of the year unfortunately

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937681#Comment_121937681

There's no palm oil in our HVO 100, in U.S HVO it maybe different. No red herring, it's a better solution until something better comes along, BEV isn't going to be the saviour for the motor industry as it falls well short for many people and for people in larger countries where they take long road trips to different states or countries. Ultimately whatever tech wins will have to be as good as ICE and liquid fuels, currently HVO100 ticks a lot of boxes and if the Government had brains they would reduce tax on it if they are serious about reducing emissions, the greens would rather see us walk.

Don't be fooled thinking making batteries is environmentally friendly, it's far from it.

If they can use waste food and veg products then this is a good idea rather than waste it. Keeping a diesel longer on HVO rather than buying any new car is more environmentally friendly, there are many good older cars that will run for many years longer.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939472#Comment_121939472

It doesn't matter whether I went PCP or not, the reality is depreciation hits electrics hard. Now don't get me wrong, I went on PCP knowing exactly what I was getting into. This is my 3rd, last and last EV for the foreseeable future.

If the price was 41K and the value of the car is 25K or less after 3 years, that's not very good no matter how you pay for it.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939518#Comment_121939518

You will pay more for the PHEV is it worth it ? you probably won't save anything in the long run and you might end up kicking yourself you didn't go for a full EV,